Gas pedal sensor woes

Justwondering

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My big baby has no cancer, no rot.
The paint is dicey. Typical ford job -- reminds me of the same problem they had with Taurus cars from the 1990s.

Only external issue is the crushed portion of the fiberglass fender -- husband was backing up and hit the tree. After that, he refuses to back up any vehicle or trailer... that's now my job. But I know how to fix the fender -- fiberglass is easy.
 

Aspen500

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I suppose, vehicles don't rust anywhere near as much in Texas as they do here in Wisconsin. They don't call it the rust belt for nothing. Put it this way, last week I worked on a 2011 Silverado and it already has small rust holes along the rear wheel openings. That's what road salt does. It gets into places that are all but impossible to wash out and just keeps eating away.
 

Justwondering

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AJ/FormS
So let me see if I get this right ...
I've got 1 husband, 3 brothers, 3 male dogs, 3 male goats, 1 female goat, 2 male cats, 1 female cat ...
I'm the caregiver for 80 year old dad with prostate cancer
and you are worried I might faint if I see a 3rd leg... see postings of t & a , see a 'bad' word
won't happen...
Just chill, kiddo ... its all good
 

BudW

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2003 was last year for 7.3L and first year for 6.0L (midyear change, on 1/1/2003). As far as Ford diesel engines go, the 7.3L engine is a pretty decent engine. I wouldn’t give a 6.0L engine to my enemy (I probably should though, sense it is a ticking hand grenade).

I would agree the 6.4L diesel is so-so. The 6.7L appears to be decent, but I would like a few more years under its belt before recommending.

The Ford 6.0L diesel is the most expensive engine I have ever seen, short of older Jaguars or other exotic cars. You can easily spend 20K dollars (US) a year just on repairs on that engine.


My ’97 Dodge diesel is the last (full) year 12 valve Cummins engine. A midyear change (1/1/1998) brought in the 24 valve engine and it was computerized. The 24v is also a headache engine that requires constant money tossed it (roughly 2K dollar a year) but a far cry cheaper than the 6.0L Ford.

The computer on my ’97 pickup only controls the alternator output and drives the tachometer (5 speed manual) only.
If I was to unplug the computer while engine was running, I could run the truck until both batteries were drained down to about 7-8 volts (a few hours later). I’d like to see any other auto computer do that.

Also I can burn darn near anything for fuel (except for gasoline or water) without any problems. Can’t do that in Dodge diesels made before ’94 or after ’98.

With about $2500 (US) in simple bolt on modifications, I can make my currently stock 9,000 pound truck run in the 10’s

My problem is the truck is 20 years old, and it looks it. Powertrain is good a long time – but sadly, the truck body is not. The first clutch was installed in it at 230k miles. I don’t think you can break the Dana 80 (11¼”) differential in it, either.
I think my pickup differential, starter and flywheel combined - weighs in as much as my station wagon does.


I would agree, the ole Electronic Lean Burn (ELB) computer is an analog computer, and without any diagnostic port. Problems can still be diagnosed using a flow chart, some common tools - and having a box of known good parts helps.
In general, electronics are sensitive to heat, vibration and fluids, so Dodge installed the ELB computer in the most vibration prong area which is right above the Left exhaust manifold (Police versions were inside the cabin).

Now days, many car companies were putting the transmission computer inside of the transmissions. Yes, inside where it is hot and wet. Computers don’t like heat or getting wet (yes I know transmission fluid (ATF) is not the same as water, but still . . .)!
 

Master M

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2003 was last year for 7.3L and first year for 6.0L (midyear change, on 1/1/2003). As far as Ford diesel engines go, the 7.3L engine is a pretty decent engine. I wouldn’t give a 6.0L engine to my enemy (I probably should though, sense it is a ticking hand grenade).

I would agree the 6.4L diesel is so-so. The 6.7L appears to be decent, but I would like a few more years under its belt before recommending.

The Ford 6.0L diesel is the most expensive engine I have ever seen, short of older Jaguars or other exotic cars. You can easily spend 20K dollars (US) a year just on repairs on that engine.


My ’97 Dodge diesel is the last (full) year 12 valve Cummins engine. A midyear change (1/1/1998) brought in the 24 valve engine and it was computerized. The 24v is also a headache engine that requires constant money tossed it (roughly 2K dollar a year) but a far cry cheaper than the 6.0L Ford.

The computer on my ’97 pickup only controls the alternator output and drives the tachometer (5 speed manual) only.
If I was to unplug the computer while engine was running, I could run the truck until both batteries were drained down to about 7-8 volts (a few hours later). I’d like to see any other auto computer do that.

Also I can burn darn near anything for fuel (except for gasoline or water) without any problems. Can’t do that in Dodge diesels made before ’94 or after ’98.

With about $2500 (US) in simple bolt on modifications, I can make my currently stock 9,000 pound truck run in the 10’s

My problem is the truck is 20 years old, and it looks it. Powertrain is good a long time – but sadly, the truck body is not. The first clutch was installed in it at 230k miles. I don’t think you can break the Dana 80 (11¼”) differential in it, either.
I think my pickup differential, starter and flywheel combined - weighs in as much as my station wagon does.


I would agree, the ole Electronic Lean Burn (ELB) computer is an analog computer, and without any diagnostic port. Problems can still be diagnosed using a flow chart, some common tools - and having a box of known good parts helps.
In general, electronics are sensitive to heat, vibration and fluids, so Dodge installed the ELB computer in the most vibration prong area which is right above the Left exhaust manifold (Police versions were inside the cabin).

Now days, many car companies were putting the transmission computer inside of the transmissions. Yes, inside where it is hot and wet. Computers don’t like heat or getting wet (yes I know transmission fluid (ATF) is not the same as water, but still . . .)!
It is amazing that car companies knowing how electronics don't hold up well to heat and moisture continue doing it. It is possible they want continued filling of their service bays with cars to fix things out of reach for the average car owner.
 

Aspen500

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However,,,,,,,,,,,,,we see next to no failures of trans control modules inside the transmission, or ECM's mounted in the engine compartment or right on the engine itself in some cases. I can count on one hand the number of ECM's I've had to replace because of a failure in the past 20 years and even fewer TCM's. A lot of vehicles, especially trucks, have the ABS module (and of course hydraulic control unit it's attached to) underneath on the frame rail down in the slop. What I'm getting at is they've solved all the problems of a computer and heat/cold, dry/wet, vibrations and the problems they used to cause, etc.....Some vehicles had the TCM inside the trans 20 years ago or more already and I really don't recall any problems with them.
It's come a long ways since the early 1960's that way. My dad told me about the first computer the company he worked for (electrical engineer) got in 1962. Took up a whole room, did upwards of 10 calculations a second and had to be kept in a climate controlled environment of no less than 60 degrees and no more than 65 degrees, LOL.

You guys talk down about computer controls on cars but how else do you get a car that runs a 12 second 1/4 mile off the showroom floor, can be driven daily in traffic, pulls down 30 mpg on the highway and puts out exhaust so clean you can darn near breathe it. Without computer controls it'd be impossible.

Maybe because I've been working on cars for a living for over 30 years, I've got a different perspective? I'd really, honestly rather diagnose and repair a driveability concern on a 2012 vehicle than the one's I started out on from the late '70's and into the early '80s (I know, I know, the exact years of cars we are into).
Oh well, off the soapbox now.
 

Master M

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However,,,,,,,,,,,,,we see next to no failures of trans control modules inside the transmission, or ECM's mounted in the engine compartment or right on the engine itself in some cases. I can count on one hand the number of ECM's I've had to replace because of a failure in the past 20 years and even fewer TCM's. A lot of vehicles, especially trucks, have the ABS module (and of course hydraulic control unit it's attached to) underneath on the frame rail down in the slop. What I'm getting at is they've solved all the problems of a computer and heat/cold, dry/wet, vibrations and the problems they used to cause, etc.....Some vehicles had the TCM inside the trans 20 years ago or more already and I really don't recall any problems with them.
It's come a long ways since the early 1960's that way. My dad told me about the first computer the company he worked for (electrical engineer) got in 1962. Took up a whole room, did upwards of 10 calculations a second and had to be kept in a climate controlled environment of no less than 60 degrees and no more than 65 degrees, LOL.

You guys talk down about computer controls on cars but how else do you get a car that runs a 12 second 1/4 mile off the showroom floor, can be driven daily in traffic, pulls down 30 mpg on the highway and puts out exhaust so clean you can darn near breathe it. Without computer controls it'd be impossible.

Maybe because I've been working on cars for a living for over 30 years, I've got a different perspective? I'd really, honestly rather diagnose and repair a driveability concern on a 2012 vehicle than the one's I started out on from the late '70's and into the early '80s (I know, I know, the exact years of cars we are into).
Oh well, off the soapbox now.
Thanks for all of the info from your perspective. There is nothing wrong with a new car and a warranty if that is truly affordable for someone. I see it from the people ( employees where I work ) who can't get that new car with a warranty and have to buy a used car with no warranty. The repair bills they show me almost seem criminal. One of my best workers is taking back streets to work because his transmission will not upshift for the highway. It is a Chevy impala 2000 something with 90,000 miles. He hasn't got a repair quote under $2300.00 for a rebuild. That is more than the car is worth. Most of the people I know aren't concerned about a 12 second 1/4 mile car. They would just like a decent reliable car that would not break the bank on repairs. This doesn't appear to be available to them.
 

80mirada

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The problems that people heaped on Chrysler's Lean Burn are the same problems that are blamed on modern computer controls. When there is a problem very few people or techs do any real diagnostic work and make assumptions. People blame carb problems on an ignition system then and blame mechanical problems on sensors and computers now. Newer cars run well enough with major problems that they won't get them fixed when it is diagnosed correctly. And when a mechanical system fails they blame the cost of repairs on the complexity of the controls.
 

BudW

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However,,,,,,,,,,,,,we see next to no failures of trans control modules inside the transmission, or ECM's mounted in the engine compartment or right on the engine itself in some cases. I can count on one hand the number of ECM's I've had to replace because of a failure in the past 20 years and even fewer TCM's.
I would agree about ECM (Engine Control Module (or Computer)) and PCM (Powertrain Control module) failure rate has dropped a lot in last twenty or so years.

Newer diagnostic procedures have made finding the problem many times easier.

Also external (firewall mounted) transmission control modules (TCM), I rarely have to replace. That said, I do see a couple of internal TCM failures every week. Some of those things are not cheap (about $2,000 US) and many times have to have VIN burned into it for it to work (in other words, the average person can’t replace it themselves and expect it to work. It also means you can’t use a “known good part” to test with).

Today’s ECM/PCM’s also have to be programmed and have VIN burned into them before they can work, as well.

I still believe heat and vibration is murder on electronics (ie: computer sensors) (note: I can change by belief for a sizeable bribe) - for computer sensors is the main culprit newer cars have.

BudW
 

kkritsilas

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Sensors will always have a higher failure rate than ECM/TCM/PCM/BCMs (ie. computer modules). They are always exposed to chemicals, dirt, heat and vibration (whether it be a collant temperature sensor, a MAP sensor, O2 sensor, or what have you), by necessity must be physically small (so not much area/mass to dissipate heat), and many are not electronic, but electro-mechanical, so mechanical wear is also an issue. The computers are usually encased in a heavy (usually aluminum) box, many have fins for cooling, as well as having the physical space for things like transorbs and zener diodes (to reduce/eliminate voltage spikes) on the incoming voltage lines. Contrast this with, say an O2 sensor; constantly exposed to corrosive, hot exhaust gases when the engine is operating, possible condensation build up when the engine is shutdown, all in something the size of a 3/8" bolt.
 

Justwondering

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and I just know one of those crazy things is causing my dually to drop out of gear when I'm highway driving ... about every 120 miles or so. Something is failing, very slowly and telling the computer to shut er down. Hopefully, the software and dataport will help me isolate the best candidates
 

AJ/FormS

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AJ/FormS
So let me see if I get this right ...
I've got 1 husband, 3 brothers, 3 male dogs, 3 male goats, 1 female goat, 2 male cats, 1 female cat ...
I'm the caregiver for 80 year old dad with prostate cancer
and you are worried I might faint if I see a 3rd leg... see postings of t & a , see a 'bad' word
won't happen...
Just chill, kiddo ... its all good
Oh,dear,
I forgot the loll again
 

Master M

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I would agree about ECM (Engine Control Module (or Computer)) and PCM (Powertrain Control module) failure rate has dropped a lot in last twenty or so years.

Newer diagnostic procedures have made finding the problem many times easier.

Also external (firewall mounted) transmission control modules (TCM), I rarely have to replace. That said, I do see a couple of internal TCM failures every week. Some of those things are not cheap (about $2,000 US) and many times have to have VIN burned into it for it to work (in other words, the average person can’t replace it themselves and expect it to work. It also means you can’t use a “known good part” to test with).

Today’s ECM/PCM’s also have to be programmed and have VIN burned into them before they can work, as well.

I still believe heat and vibration is murder on electronics (ie: computer sensors) (note: I can change by belief for a sizeable bribe) - for computer sensors is the main culprit newer cars have.

BudW
BudW, Thanks for sharing your everyday experiences with us. You have confirmed to me what is wrong with current car design. Charge more for the new car than you need to , design and install parts the average guy can't get to, and then charge the heck out of the car owner. $2000.00 for a TCM ??? makes you want to keep a spare in the trunk, but then again you couldn't install it yourself anyway.....
 

BudW

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I do like our cars a lot, as you can stick a handful of spare parts and a few hand tools in the trunk to take care of many a malady that might occur.

On Sunday, the “run” circuit of my dual ballast resistor died, on my ‘77 Volare.
I got one out of the trunk, plugged it in and got home. I knew what was wrong, because car was starting in “start” mode, but died when ignition switch went back to “run” mode.

It took me longer to move grocery bags from trunk than anything else.
No tools needed (until I got home - well, um, I still hadn’t bolted it on firewall, yet) and no diagnostic equipment needed.
 

AJ/FormS

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That's what I like about them too.The electrical systems are simple enough for a guy like me to understand,diagnose,and repair; when 600 miles from home, in another country. When your modern EFI, Super-Duper, electrical everything car pukes electrons, in a similar situation, it takes ALL the fun out of your vacation. And then it takes a year to recover from the burden. And your kids will take a long time to forget it. And your wife? IDK your wife, but mine............
Kidding. lol,loll
 

Cordoba1

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A lot of people make fun of the "beauty covers" atop engines these days, but in many cases, they actually server a purpose: Pop the hood on many a new car, and the engine compartment has really high-quality seals around the hood. As well as managing airflow through, around, and under the car; engineers are also controlling the environment in the engine compartment. My newer cars stay remarkably clean and dust free (relatively speaking) under the hood, even in the winter.
 

Cordoba1

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As a PS -- If you're ever out on the road, and a ballast resister goes bad -- a light bulb about the size of a brake light works just fine!
 
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