318 rebuild

My imp

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You can either buy one with the port for vac. adv, or drill it yourself. There's a website for the thermoquad which tells you where to drill, what size bit & tubing to use, etc. you cannot use a spacer & drill for vac.adv. as you will always be advanced. If you don't already have a carb, buy one that has the port. Call Dave @ DemonSizzler & he'll tell you the model to look for. Tell me about your combo. '86 318 auto. Are you running A/C? Cruise? Electric or thermostatic w/electrical assist choke? Headers? Manifolds? Dual exhaust? Let me know & I'll find you some carb #'s.
 

kkritsilas

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i guess I will have to find a rebuilder to both rebuild the carbs and add a vacuum port to them. This way I won't run into any issues with the throttle, cruise control, or transmission linkages. I would love to send this to Dave @DemonSizzler, but there is no website, and both the DemonSizzler and Thermoquads.com sites appear to be invalid domain names. Does Dave@DemonSizzler have a web site at all, and if not, does he have a phone number?

Kostas
 

alf44

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my 86 318 will be no a/c, cruise control yes, thermostatic/electric choke, factory manifolds. factory y pipe to a 2 1/2 inch pipe- no cats-full 2 1/2 to a rear mount thrush muffler. plan on a 904 ,new filter, shift kit, adjust bands to spec. stock 8 1/4 rear . try to use a 3.21 if i can find 1. interested also on the right thermoquad part numbers.what are the normal rear gears in a 8 1/4 86 5th?. rear tires might be 235-75-r 15 (on there now)
 

alf44

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summit cost 4 thermoquad 279 .97.. 3 differant part numbers. not a bad price
 

kkritsilas

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A rebuild from carbrebuilders.com is $200. If you can find a suitable TQ in a swap meet or locally on craigslist or Kijiji, you could have a rebuilt carb for less than the summit cost. This will sort of depend on where you are though, carbrebuilders.com is in Canada, so the shipping costs are lower for Canadians (and higher for those in the US). Conversely, Summit's shipping cost for those in the US is $0 while it will be in the $40-50 for Canadians. I have done some research, and carbrebuilders.com is well regarded for their services, so they are no fly by night outfit. I am also pretty sure they can easily add a vacuum port to the ESA/Lean Burn carburetors. I think I will probably end up going with carbrebuilders.com, and have them rebuild and add a vacuum port to my two carbs (one at a time, though). This will probably be some time this summer.

If by "The Thermoquad Page" you mean the page by the person called Vaanth, I have a printed copy of it here, and refer to it constantly. If you are talking about a specific web site, I have done searches, and can't come up with a site by that name.

Kostas
 

My imp

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Summit rebuilt carbs are Holley (junk) rebuilds. DemonSizzler is no fly by night operation. Go to any of the other FABO, FBBO, etc.. & look him up. He'll go the extra mile & then some. Prices are very reasonable. When I said master kits, I meant engine (pistons, rings, bearings,etc..) kits. Carb kits range in quality, but don't get an older one unless you get an accelerator pump plunger compatible with alcohol blend fuels. Basically, being a stock rebuild on a tight budget, what's wrong with the heads on the car? If you match all components, you end up with a smooth running, economical, dependable vehicle. Everyone wants to run the best equipment available, but not always feasible. Nothing wrong with used parts, as long as its a co-ordinated platform. Just because you can get a deal from a guy that had a 9 sec. Dart on his Dominator & .710/330 cam, doesn't mean you should use it on a basically stock combo. Not knowing your budget, it's hard to price out. Do you have mic.'s & bore gauges to check tolerances? Can you get them from someone? Have a machine shop you trust to do only what you want & not talk you into sonic testing, grout filling, line hone, decking, etc? Once they get your stuff, the costs climb pretty fast. Keep an eye out for complete packages. I used to buy old Mopar wagons from steel mill employees that used to meet away from the mills in their good cars, & load up into an old beater wagon & drive it to the mills with the slag particles in the air that trashes paint jobs. Being in Cleveland, Oh. the frames eventually rusted & broke. For the grand total of $35 (if you could drive it in), or $25 (if you couldn't), you ended up with a BB, 727, 8 3/4" rear, & a drive shaft that only needed shortened. Granted those deals are gone, but similar ones are around. Low mileage pickups that are totalled for a song. Plenty of projects have been started & abandoned. The stuff is ripe for the picking. RockAuto runs specials on 318 stuff all the time. Put your car in for the application, & all kind of go fast goodies lol appear. Are you talking a glass pack straight through Thrush muffler? That opens up a can of worms there.
 

My imp

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A rebuild from carbrebuilders.com is $200. If you can find a suitable TQ in a swap meet or locally on craigslist or Kijiji, you could have a rebuilt carb for less than the summit cost. This will sort of depend on where you are though, carbrebuilders.com is in Canada, so the shipping costs are lower for Canadians (and higher for those in the US). Conversely, Summit's shipping cost for those in the US is $0 while it will be in the $40-50 for Canadians. I have done some research, and carbrebuilders.com is well regarded for their services, so they are no fly by night outfit. I am also pretty sure they can easily add a vacuum port to the ESA/Lean Burn carburetors. I think I will probably end up going with carbrebuilders.com, and have them rebuild and add a vacuum port to my two carbs (one at a time, though). This will probably be some time this summer.

If by "The Thermoquad Page" you mean the page by the person called Vaanth, I have a printed copy of it here, and refer to it constantly. If you are talking about a specific web site, I have done searches, and can't come up with a site by that name.

Kostas
Yes, that's the one. A Carter Thermoquad Guide. The chart gives you all the applications by number. I have a copy in my library. Excellent paper, well done!
 

My imp

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Unfortunately, in 1985 Chrysler switched to Rot&Fester Quadrabog's by our friends at Genital Motors. Just kidding, Q-Jets are right behind TQ's in most ways. Many guys love them, can make them run, & it's an economical replacement carb, not to mention that there are 5 trillion of those things floating around out there. Just need to adapt linkages.
 

alf44

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i have dial calipers, micrometers, and know how to read them. i wanted to use a better used head to gain a little compression instead of changing pistons.what can o worms does a straight through thrush muffler cause? i have used a hush thrush before and my brother used a thrush on a 300 ci ford with great sound. i dont want a LOUD muffler just a good rumble. summit seems to have everything i want for the rebuild so my money will be theirs ,lol
 

My imp

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In many states straight through mufflers are illegal, giving Johnny Law a built in excuse to pull you over. Exhaust back pressure helps cool exhaust valves, no back pressure definitely won't extend valve life. Summit's cool, don't get me wrong, I live there! All I said was that the TQ's they sell are reman.'d by Holley. If once again I am guilty of what I read on the Internet & people I've talked to, all have said the reman's from Holley are junk. ANY TQ you look at, the shafts are green Teflon coated. It cuts down on throttle shaft wear. Remove that by tumbling or blasting & you increase the tolerance between shaft & bore eventually causing a vacuum leak. When really worn you can hear them whistle. Spray water at the bore, or put grease on the end of the shaft & notice the difference. My Imp has a Thrush muffler on it. It also has headers, (2) cat.'s, (2) turbo mufflers, crossover pipe, & then a Thrush muffler as a resonator. It has a nice little rumble, maybe a little too much for the Grey Poupon crowd, but oh we'll, I like it. No where near as annoying as that Holley ext. electric fuel pump though! I still haven't changed that yet!
 

alf44

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thank you about the summit rebuilt carbs. now i know. right now my 5th has factory cross over and cat, with NO muffler at all, just a full length pipe to the bumper and is very quiet- to quiet. my slanty has no cat-a store brand cheap muff, and is still quiet. neither has resonators. my imp? what brand of muff would you suguest to give my 318 a good . low rumble at highway speeds? keeping in a price range of 30 to 50 for a single pipe
 

alf44

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now ill need to find a very friendly member that might have a good used T Q and /or cast iron intake for sale:headbang:
 

My imp

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Summit has a plethora of mufflers under $50, RockAuto has a Walker DynoMax Turbo muffler direct replacement for $49.95+ shipping. I ran the Thrush or Cherry Bomb straight through glass packs on just about everything when I first started driving. Cat con's wouldn't even be released for a couple of years when I started. My son in law calls those mufflers "Fart Cannons". I guess that's what all the Teenage Mutant Ninja Riders with faces that look like they fell into a tackle box, use on their rice grinders. You're right though, when I got tha Gran Fury the exhaust was missing from the end of the pipe before the muffler, w/2 mini cat's + the main cat & it was remarkably quiet. A lot of Mopes used glass packs as resonators. Try eBay, not many that put on a good TQ ever take it off. Probably anything you buy should be gone through, so get one cheap & a quality kit. I bought a "Master rebuild kit" from eBay that didn't even have an acc. pump! I've seen TQ's for $10 & up on eBay. Just punch in thermoquad & start drooling! I lucked out, I got a brand new one for an'80 360, AT,AC, for$160 free shipping. A lot of people sell "Reman's" as new? But they've been sitting God knows where for 30 yrs under God knows what conditions! Let the buyer beware!
 

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The Edelbrock Performer is not the best choice with a TQ (or any carb, for that matter). The factory iron 4bbl intake makes considerably more power and torque on the dyno. Remove the EGR standpipe and replace it with a pipe plug, and use the EGR valve as its own block off plate if you don't want to fabricate one. If you don't want to do any fabrication for the rear mount of your AC compressor, it's either an original 4V intake cast late in '77 or newer, or the Edelbrock Performer. I know of no other intake with the rear boss near the #4 intake port. If it were my car, I'd go with the OEM iron piece for this build. The SP2P that I had was a 4-barrel and very similar to the old StreetMaster. Simply put, those are the two worst intakes ever devised for the LA engine for any use whatsoever.

For a mild build like this, I'd stick with the good old TQ. Adjusted correctly, you'll never regret it. It's just an awesome carb. For the record, Holley vacuum-secondary carbs do not operate on throttle position for the secondaries. They work very similarly to a ThermoQuad in that regard, by using engine demand to meter fuel and air. The only piece of linkage from the primaries to the secondaries on a 4160 is a lockout to keep the secondaries from opening too soon or hanging open. Edelbrock Performer carb, a.k.a. Carter AFB 9000? I wouldn't even consider owning one. Carter considered it outdated by the mid-'60s, replacing it with the much-better AVS, which is in no way related to the Edelbrock Thunder Series AVS other than basic principle of operation.

The 308 heads are awesome, but remember that with an '86 non-AHB engine you'll need to replace the pistons or your compression will be in the basement. Like, 7.5:1 or less. The '85-up roller longblock kind of sucks for a build because of that and the fact that the OE 302 swirl-chamber heads don't flow worth a hoot. Spend $1,000+ for professional porting and you might get them to flow as well as as-cast 308, X, or J/O/U heads. Realistically, even with the favorable 1.85 rod:stroke ratio and high nickel content of Mopar blocks, it's more than likely at 258K miles you'll need to bore it and use new pistons. Just get ones listed for an '82 or something rather than the correct year. With a .020"-.030" shave to the heads and Mr. Gasket's thin head gaskets, this will put you very close to (or slightly over) 9:1 compression. More power and better economy right there. Make sure that for every .010" taken off the head-gasket face of the heads, .0095" gets shaved from the intake face of the head or your intake won't fit correctly.

Camshaft? The easy choice here is something very similar to an original 340 camshaft, such as Summit's inexpensive K6900, or one step up to the K6901. Nice, mild camshaft in either situation. No need for added stall, deep gears, etc. The smaller cam will be a little better on fuel, but not dramatically so.

Get a vacuum-advance distributor (points or electronic) and pull out the contact/pickup plate to gain access to the mechanical advance mechanism's flyweights. You'll have to remove the rubbing block or reluctor, but you can do that with two screwdrivers. Get the Mopar Performance lightweight spring kit, but use only one. Replace the lighter of the two factory springs with it. Put the pickup plate back in, reinstall the rubbing block or reluctor, and toss the points or pickup. Install a Pertronix Ignitor, red wire to coil + and black to coil -. Done. Never think about it again. I've sold hundreds of them since they were introduced and have never seen, nor even heard about, one failing. Disconnect the ESA (Lean Burn) and pack the connectors full of clear silicone so they can't short, and just leave 'em hang. Set timing using the "Big Fat Friend on a Steep Hill" method. If you get spark knock at part throttle or cruise (not likely), get a vacuum advance canister with less total pull; the amount of advance is stamped on the arm.

Quick recap:
  • OEM cast or Performer intake
  • Carter TQ w/vacuum advance port (easily added if yours doesn't have it)
  • 308 heads milled .020"-.030"
  • Earlier pistons ('76-'84 flattops)
  • Summit K6900 (or K6901) camshaft kit; stated goals tell me the K6900
  • Vacuum advance distributor w/1 light flyweight spring & Pertronix Ignitor I
  • Tell everyone it's a 360
Candy from a baby. This will put you well over 200HP (net) with the factory cat & single exhaust. If the cat falls off and a pair of true 2" duals grows in its place, figure more like 240-250HP at a usable 4,500RPM. It should pull like a freight train from slightly off idle to about 5,000RPM. Headers and 2.25" pipes are probably good for another 30 beyond that.

I've built this combo three times, once with J heads and twice with 587s with the smog humps ground out. It works. To be honest, though, you could probably forego the cam and heads, rebuild your shortblock with the stock-style '86 pistons and be very happy with intake/carb/distributor and free-flowing exhaust. I did exactly that with an '84 Fifth Avenue, and it was a very enjoyable car after a swap to 2.94 gears from the abysmal 2.2 ratio originally in the car. Fuel mileage actually increased with the lower 2.94 gear. It was lugging too much with the ultra-high 2.2 cogs.

You've basically given me a beautiful blueprint to go by for my Fifth
And this ain't even my thread.....
Thank you Sir.
 

kkritsilas

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BrotherGood:

Love the side exit exhausts. Somewhat lumpy idle, is that due to a hot cam, or is it just that tuning wasn't completed?

Kostas

P.S. Found this video regarding the turbo era Formula 1 cars. Goes back into the discussion of Honda's engineering abilities. See:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjvgmfPoJ5M

Interesting to see that they were talking about 800-1000 HP out of a 1.5L engine.

This is the first time I have actually seen an engine failure attributed to block distortion. You read about it, mostly in relation to dragsters "oil canning" thier cylinders, but this was bad enough to seize and engine solid.
 
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brotherGood

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It's a mild cam.. summit 6900 IIRC. It's not completely dialed in yet, that could contribute to the "lumpy idle"
 
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