paint basics

bremereric

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I painted my engine compartment single stage Poly urethane over that epoxy. I wet sanded the primer smooth with 600 grit. First coat is like a powder coat. 15 minutes later was the medium kinda wet coat. 15 minutes after that was the third and last wet coat. It shines very well. You will only have to cut and buff to remove dirt in your paint. First hit it with 2000 grit wet and then buff that out.
 
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slant6billy

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I was going to post a new thread, but "what about oil based paints"? was not fully vetted. I just saw a 74 duster get painted this weekend. Well, not the entire time, but before and some after. The guy is not a mopar guy nor a masterpainter. Hey bought quart cans from Homedepot of Rustoleum metallic green gloss. He added one quart of smoke gray to the 4 quarts, plus a quart of Aluminum color? all Rustoleum brand oil paint. He did add some thinner to a big old 5 gallon bucket and mixed it all together. He shot it with my cheap gun ( non gravity fed). This looks killer. If I had my head on straight, I'd have pictures. This is a 60 dollar paint job that looks decent to go down the road. Anyone try this home DIY? The Duster looks like a 5,000 dollar car and was like 1200 bucks.
 

alfatar

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I hope you all remember that the new paints can really make you sick. it can sneak up on you as it is cumulative. I hope you are at least using a charcoal mask and plenty of fresh air. Please read up on what you are using
mike
 

ramenth

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I have a couple questions.
Do you have to cut and buff a single stage urethane? Or will it give you an OEM shine like the old Acrylic enamels will?

Depends. Generally a single stage urethane is going outshine the OEM acrylic enamel. As far as "having" to cut and buff, that's up to you. Most of us don't have high dollar paint booths and have to make do with what we've got. We don't have the perfect weather conditions, we have to spray at night... etc, etc. If the paint lays in right, you have no orange peel, no runs, no drips, no errors, and are happy with the overall job, don't. On the other hand, if it needs a light sanding (1500 grit or finer) then go for it.

lowbudget said:
Why cant you spray metallic's with single stage?

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! I love this myth being spread all over the place. I ask you: before base/clear what do you think the collision guys were spraying? Single stage! With very heavy metallics!

Seriously, this is the biggest thing I've heard from guys who use base/clear as a crutch. Long before base/clears the old timers had to use single stages to get the jobs done. Lay a tooth coat. Easy enough to do: crank the pattern of the gun wide open, increase the pressure and lay a fine mist of paint over every square inch of the car. Let it sit for a little while (about half the flash time of a "regular" coat) and then start laying on coats like you normally would. Of course, you need a good gun that will break up the metallics so it doesn't stripe, but that should be a given. After the job is done and you have your proper film build, lay on your "metallics" coat, which is just like laying on your tooth coat.

Most guys are under the impression that you can't cut and buff single stage metallics. Guess what, you can. I've done it on lacquers (doing work on 70's and 80's GM's) to enamels, (everything not GM).

I was laying down single stage metallics before the first production clears came online and doing so in high volume shops. (I was also doing blends on 'em... seems to be a lost art these days.)

lowbudget said:
I was just thinking if a person had to cut and buff out an engine bay it would be a pain. I'm on the fence on what to use. I suppose I could just shoot it with Acrylic Enamel and be done with it.

Thanks Mike

Mike, there's little to no difference in laying down a single stage from one system to another.

Here's a little example:

008.jpg


This car was done in PPG's Concept single stage mixed one to one RTS with 2002 Concept clear. I laid down three coats of single stage, gave it 36 hours of flow time (kicked back just a bit on the hardener and just a hair more reducer) then wet sanded it with 1000 to give the next mils something to bite on. I then laid down three coats of the single stage/clear mix (a trick, since the clear is thinner and you can have too much flow... kick back on the thinner in the clear), gave it the same amount of flow time, then sanded it down with 1500 going to 2000 before giving it an overall buff with an aggressive compound before going to a polish and finally a cleaner/wax also with buffer.

The car is white. A very forgiving color to work with and one in which it's hard to get a gloss from like a darker color. Yet, when you look at this car in full sun, wear your sunglasses.

I have six quarts of Wild Plum Purple in single stage Concept sitting out in the shed waiting to go on my '74 Barracuda. (That's for inside and out.) I'll be using the same technique - single stage/clear mix. And it's a very heavy metallics.

008.jpg
 

ramenth

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I hope you all remember that the new paints can really make you sick. it can sneak up on you as it is cumulative. I hope you are at least using a charcoal mask and plenty of fresh air. Please read up on what you are using
mike

I'll back this up. Isocyonate poisoning is like smoking a carton of cigarettes all in one puff. It's no fun and keep leave you on the floor gasping for air at the best (ask me how I know) death at the worst.

It can also sink in through the pours of your skin and over time, give you health problems that way. Plenty of air flow is a must (not just for getting the paint to flash). Look into getting a paint suit. You can get the disposable ones fairly cheap and the reusable ones aren't more than $50 from your local paint jobber.
 

ramenth

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I was going to post a new thread, but "what about oil based paints"? was not fully vetted. I just saw a 74 duster get painted this weekend. Well, not the entire time, but before and some after. The guy is not a mopar guy nor a masterpainter. Hey bought quart cans from Homedepot of Rustoleum metallic green gloss. He added one quart of smoke gray to the 4 quarts, plus a quart of Aluminum color? all Rustoleum brand oil paint. He did add some thinner to a big old 5 gallon bucket and mixed it all together. He shot it with my cheap gun ( non gravity fed). This looks killer. If I had my head on straight, I'd have pictures. This is a 60 dollar paint job that looks decent to go down the road. Anyone try this home DIY? The Duster looks like a 5,000 dollar car and was like 1200 bucks.

There's a guy on FABO, screen name is Clhyer who painted his '72 Duster with Rustoleum out of one gallon buckets. The car is a head turner, especially since he went white and black. (White is an under utilized color in the muscle car world, in my opinion.) If you're over on FABO, too, PM him and ask him how he did it.

It's not something I'd do with a customer's car, no matter how good it looks (I wouldn't be able to warranty it), but if you're looking for something that looks good and on the cheap (I think Cal paid less than $25 for the whole system) it's worth looking in to.

There's something, though, I want to take the time to address. All paint is "oil based." Lacquers, acrylics, urethanes, (even the old alkyds) are all petroleum based products. They are all refined from crude oil, even the dyes which are being used. Hence one of the reasons, as the price of crude goes, so to does the price of paints.
 

My imp

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And then they went & F'd the whole thing up! The govt decided that the voc's (volatile organic compounds) in petroleum based paints were killing the planet, so... Along came water (based) born paint. All sealer, primer, & color coats are water based. The only petroleum based product used is the clear. Can't have the paint running off of you brand new car while you're driving through a rain storm! lol We used to call them "Flip/Flop" paint, but that term has a different connotation these days. Today they're called "Chameleon". They're those colors that radically change depending on how light hits them. The waterborne industry made a big splash (no pun intended) with the GTO in the movie XXX starring Vin Diesel. That car was painted with water based paint. The company is called Creatix. They have some really killer colors. It's weird thinning paint with basically water. There are binders & what not, but mostly H2O. I've used it on models, but haven't quite worked up the testicular fortitude to switch over to it on full size car. I've shot lacquer, acrylic lacquer, enamel, acrylic enamel w/hardner, & urethane, but it shoots with tendencies that I'm not ready to invest that much money for an experiment. I might learn to love it. But then , I might hate it! So I'll wait until Big Brother takes all other paint off the market.vbecause you can damn sure think it wasn't the industries idea to throw away 100's of years of technology, & do a 180. Water used to be the enemy of every painter, not they want us to spray the stuff!
 

ramenth

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And then they went & F'd the whole thing up! The govt decided that the voc's (volatile organic compounds) in petroleum based paints were killing the planet, so... Along came water (based) born paint. All sealer, primer, & color coats are water based. The only petroleum based product used is the clear. Can't have the paint running off of you brand new car while you're driving through a rain storm! lol We used to call them "Flip/Flop" paint, but that term has a different connotation these days. Today they're called "Chameleon". They're those colors that radically change depending on how light hits them. The waterborne industry made a big splash (no pun intended) with the GTO in the movie XXX starring Vin Diesel. That car was painted with water based paint. The company is called Creatix. They have some really killer colors. It's weird thinning paint with basically water. There are binders & what not, but mostly H2O. I've used it on models, but haven't quite worked up the testicular fortitude to switch over to it on full size car. I've shot lacquer, acrylic lacquer, enamel, acrylic enamel w/hardner, & urethane, but it shoots with tendencies that I'm not ready to invest that much money for an experiment. I might learn to love it. But then , I might hate it! So I'll wait until Big Brother takes all other paint off the market.vbecause you can damn sure think it wasn't the industries idea to throw away 100's of years of technology, & do a 180. Water used to be the enemy of every painter, not they want us to spray the stuff!

Not the whole thing. I can still buy petroleum based products through my local PPG paint jobber. I can still buy all the "old" stuff and don't even have to think about going waterborne.

http://us.ppgrefinish.com/PPG-Refinish/Products/Automotive-Refinish/Deltron

http://us.ppgrefinish.com/PPG-Refinish/Products/Automotive-Refinish/Omni

http://us.ppgrefinish.com/PPG-Refinish/Products/Automotive-Refinish/Global-Refinish-System-reg;

http://us.ppgrefinish.com/PPG-Refinish/Products/Automotive-Refinish/Shop-Line

All petroleum based. As a matter of fact, when I asked my local jobber if I should be gearing up to go all waterbornes I was told no. Only if I wanted to.

Here's a link for House of Kolors about Shimrin base.

http://www.houseofkolor.com/products/shimrin.jsp

Notice it says polymer (plastics... petroleum based) that meets or exceeds the VOC's of waterborne. It's even been approved for the CA, the most Big Brother off all states. And if Valspar is putting that kind of technology into House of Kolors then you can guaranteed that BASF, PPG, and Dupont are doing the same.
 

efriedrich

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Paints haven't been petroleum based for a long time. What we call oil based have been synthetic alkyd derivatives for as long as I have been with PPG which is over 20 years.
 

ramenth

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Paints haven't been petroleum based for a long time. What we call oil based have been synthetic alkyd derivatives for as long as I have been with PPG which is over 20 years.

Now that's interesting. My PPG factory rep has never said anything to that affect. He keeps saying petroleum based. Learn something new everyday. Or is he using that as a catch all phrase instead of further braking it down to say that alcohols and acids are now being used?
 
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slant6billy

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Thanks guys. If it was not for the weather I'd go over to the duster and get some photos. The temptation is there for me to shoot my van (as practice) and then move on to a more "F coupe" painting job.
 

My imp

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The owner of Creatix paint is a former employee of House of Color. He said HOC went corporate & he decided to go his own way. I always shot PPG, until 3 jobbers went under. Then Sherwin Williams, until they closed the 2 stores nearest me. Then I went with RM. the owner sold the company to a bunch of corporate weenies. They put their best counter guy on the road as a commercial sales rep. He weighs about 300-320? Getting up & down out of a car all day long? It's easier than firing him & fighting an unemployment case. Wait till the knees or back gives out, problem solved. They reduced their inventory by at least 60%. All their " bulk" colors that used to go for a song, no more! No choice in brands for material, tools, consumables, both paint & buffing compounds. The colr I'm going to use on my car is really nothing special. White base, gold pearl (PT-16), & clear coat. White is the cheapest color you can buy, hides body work the best, easy to apply. I personally like white, but they don't call it body man's white for nothing! PT-16 is around $100 for a 150 g bottle, clear is clear. This place now will only sell it as a system, for the Princely some of $600 a gallon? The old owner would've sold you what you needed to do the job. Progress I guess?
 

My imp

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Depends, if you know someone at a jobber shop that sells automotive paints, just ask them. My NAPA (Sherwin Williams paint) rep was a friend. I could look up any formula I wanted to. The place I go to now, the PO was the same way, not anymore! Every company has the formula book to match the chip book. Maybe eBay or Craigslist when a body shop goes under & liquidates their assets?
 

ramenth

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The owner of Creatix paint is a former employee of House of Color. He said HOC went corporate & he decided to go his own way. I always shot PPG, until 3 jobbers went under. Then Sherwin Williams, until they closed the 2 stores nearest me. Then I went with RM. the owner sold the company to a bunch of corporate weenies. They put their best counter guy on the road as a commercial sales rep. He weighs about 300-320? Getting up & down out of a car all day long? It's easier than firing him & fighting an unemployment case. Wait till the knees or back gives out, problem solved. They reduced their inventory by at least 60%. All their " bulk" colors that used to go for a song, no more! No choice in brands for material, tools, consumables, both paint & buffing compounds. The colr I'm going to use on my car is really nothing special. White base, gold pearl (PT-16), & clear coat. White is the cheapest color you can buy, hides body work the best, easy to apply. I personally like white, but they don't call it body man's white for nothing! PT-16 is around $100 for a 150 g bottle, clear is clear. This place now will only sell it as a system, for the Princely some of $600 a gallon? The old owner would've sold you what you needed to do the job. Progress I guess?


That whole situation sucks. I've been lucky in that I've been dealing with my local paint jobber for 25 years. They used to be Dupont and PPG then went to a PPG only shop for Platinum incentives. They only had one Dupont shop anyway, the rest of the collision shops were PPG. And most of them went Global.

Even with Platinum incentives they sell some "off brand" stuff, like reducers and clears. I personally like Transtar reducers in the PPG products I shoot. It's half the price of DT and I get better results with it. I lose PPG's warranty doing so, but Transtar picks it up.

Our local RM dealer sold out to corporate, J&T Auto Fasteners. The place has gone down hill as they are more interested in selling the customer their own shit as opposed to what the customer wants. It used to be the only place in town in which you could buy Norton sandpapers, SEM products, etc. As a result it just increased my PPG jobber's profits in that they went in and put in a full line of SEM and Norton.

The nice thing is I can still walk in the door and get OMNI if I want it, Shopline if I want it, all the Deltron and Concept stuff if I want it. I can buy everything as far as I want for equipment from ATD to IR to Hutchins, Sharpes, Devilbiss, Binks, etc. I can buy 3M, Norton, or Mirka. It all depends on the budget for what I need.

I've had guys ask me what they could get for their budget. A complete system of OMNI, primers, bases, and clears, usually runs $300 for everything available in the gallon.

Too bad their terms for being Platinum means they can't sell on the internet. Though, I'm sure, they wouldn't be afraid to ship through the mail for a phone order. I've never asked.
 

My imp

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Your singin' my song! That's even the same brands! Try Topol clear! Reduce by 10% or 4/1/1 & the stuff flows like no other clear I've ever used! Transtar doesn't even come close! But it is my second choice. There must be so many reasons to close a paint store. It sucks when it happens, but what're you gonna do? What gun do you shoot with? Different guys prefer different guns with there own characteristics. It's unbelievable the coat of clear that a Sata Jet HVLP can throw down! Very economical with material. They're a tad pricey, but you recover the cost fairly quickly in material savings. But as they say, "Good things are not cheap,& cheap things are not good!".
 

ramenth

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I have a bunch of different guns. I have a cheap set of ATD's for primer guns. HVLP gravity feeds. I wasn't really pleased with the way they came out of the box (they were sold as a set of three in a blow molded case) and wound up mixing and match components until I got 'em set up the way I like 'em. I've got one set up to shoot unreduced NCP and the other set up to shoot reduced NCP and sealers.

I've got two old stand by conventional Binks 2001's. If I have a small cut in job or need to run a small blend I still reach for one of these for heavy metallics or pearls.

My overall baser is an old Accuspray 10 Gun. It's ancient (20 years old?) but it breaks up heavy metallics and pearls like no one's business on large panels. Again, it took me while to get the components in the gun the way I wanted it. I might reach for this, too, if I'm running a heavy metallics single stage. I've got five caps and five needles sitting in my toolbox to mix and match.

My non-metallics single stage and clear gun is a Devilbiss GTi.
 

alf44

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when i primed my car, i used rustoliem white in quart cans ( 2 cans ) from wally mart. i mixed in 4 oz of dark blue just to tint the primer. i then used a cheep plastic spray gun that came with my I-R compressor. after giving the car a full sanding with 220 wet. i sprayed with about 60 psi as the gun was non adjustable. the primer turned out pretty good. this will not be the final coat of primer but was put on for the winter. i want to paint her in spring as cost effectively as possible with good results and am planning on using rustoliem primer again and want to use same brand paint in as close to Petty blue as i can get.any thoughts would be helpfull, im looking for at least a 20 footer ( 10 footer would be nice )
 
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