Steering upgrade alternative ?

[Deleted member 1959]

Hi folks
Now that my 79 Lebaron is running again I would like to do something about the sloppy steering.
There are about 2-3"" of play in the steering and it really takes much of the fun out of driving it.
I have seen the Borgeson ads here, but with the shipping to Denmark and taxes it will cost a fortune to go that way.
So I was thinking if a steering box from a 90´s Jeep Cherokee would fit ? It´s a type of car we have plenty of here; both with the IL6 and the 5,2/5,9L V8.
I wonder if the starter also could swapped over ? (My Lebaron is a 5,2 V8.)

 

[78VOLAREWAG]

I have been told by some Mopar hot rodders that the smaller starter like from a 94- up Ram V8 will work on the older V8s. I sold him one to clear the headers on his Dart.

 

[Sub03]

I had some serious play in the steering on my Aspen. First I replaced the tie joints, idler arm and pitman arm. It helped a little, but still too sloppy feel on the road.

Then I found a lot of play in the steering coupler. If you do the math, a couple of millimetres play in the steering coupler results in several centimetres of play at the steering wheel.
I Made two steel plates between the square-ish shoes and the coupling body to eliminate the play. The plates can not be to thick to allow the steering shaft to move up and down in the coupler. Mine was a little less than 1 mm thick.
I cleaned everything and gave it a dash of fresh grease.

This made a huge difference in the steering play. I also adjusted allen head bolt on top of the steering box a little. Be careful doing this, if you tighten it too much the steering will bind at center position. I ended up tightening it under a 1/8 turn.

My point is check the cheap stuff before you order a new box. I was sure I needed a new box, but after a complete rebuild of the front suspension this summer (ball joints, bushings and poly pucks) and max caster (+4,5 degrees) the old Dodge is a joy to drive for a -70's car from the US...

 

[Sub03]

I don't know if the steering Box from a Cherokee will fit the LeBaron, but i really doubt it.

The starter motor is located on the right side of the engine in the Cherokee, at least on the 5.2.
I did a search on the Rockauto website and it looks like the soleniod is located different.

I ordered a Denso starter for a 96 Dakota from Rockauto for my Aspen.

 

[Gearhed]

Tomorrow morning ill try and compare the box in my M-body to my 04 WJ grand, but just spit-balling I believe the sector shaft on the Jeep box is considerably longer. I'll try and check an XJ/ZJ/TJ box on my next shift at work, assuming we have one in stock. Like I said though, I'm doubtful that either would be usable

 

[Gearhed]

One Jeep part that could be useful would be the steering shaft though, they are a u-joint style so offer a more firm connection, while being more low profile than bushing-type connections. It's fairly common to use them in other areas of the hot-rodding world, Chevy S10s in particular

 

[Deleted member 1959]

I had some serious play in the steering on my Aspen. First I replaced the tie joints, idler arm and pitman arm. It helped a little, but still too sloppy feel on the road.

Then I found a lot of play in the steering coupler. If you do the math, a couple of millimetres play in the steering coupler results in several centimetres of play at the steering wheel.
I Made two steel plates between the square-ish shoes and the coupling body to eliminate the play. The plates can not be to thick to allow the steering shaft to move up and down in the coupler. Mine was a little less than 1 mm thick.
I cleaned everything and gave it a dash of fresh grease.

View attachment 40794


This made a huge difference in the steering play. I also adjusted allen head bolt on top of the steering box a little. Be careful doing this, if you tighten it too much the steering will bind at center position. I ended up tightening it under a 1/8 turn.

My point is check the cheap stuff before you order a new box. I was sure I needed a new box, but after a complete rebuild of the front suspension this summer (ball joints, bushings and poly pucks) and max caster (+4,5 degrees) the old Dodge is a joy to drive for a -70's car from the US...

Good tip - I will take a look at it

 

[8T2TOP]

If you have ANY full size Dodge/Plymouth B vans.. Same steering gear as most thru 89 RWD Mopars..Trucks different.. Van only..

 

[Ricco Heatherly]

Another possible solution: Firm Feel Inc., Portland, Or. Steering & Suspension for Mopar.
Firm Feel Inc. Steering and Suspension for Chrysler Plymouth & Dodge

 

[Deleted member 1959]

Another possible solution: Firm Feel Inc., Portland, Or. Steering & Suspension for Mopar.
Firm Feel Inc. Steering and Suspension for Chrysler Plymouth & Dodge

Thanks, but this will also be very expensive with the shipping and the taxes. If I just knew someone who travelled regularly between the US and Denmark it would be easier.

 

[Sub03]

Check out Jetcarrier(.com) for a shipping option with reasonable prices. I use them a lot when buying stuff for my cars. You'll get an american address in Delaware. You can choose between air and sea freight, sea being the cheapest off course - because shipping time is 3-4 weeks to Scandinavia.

I usually order the large/heavy stuff and boxes with parts for the next project during the winter. That way my parts is right here for when the Dodge is taken out of winter storage.
Even with shipping and taxes i'm saving at least 50% compared to the norwegian prices.

 

[Deleted member 1959]

Thanks I´ll look into it. There may be a tax difference since Denmark is in the EU, but I don´t know if it makes it better or worse

 

[Deleted member 1959]

Another possible solution: Firm Feel Inc., Portland, Or. Steering & Suspension for Mopar.
Firm Feel Inc. Steering and Suspension for Chrysler Plymouth & Dodge

Hi Ricco
Have you tried their steering box ? I am looking for something thats as close to a rack-and-pinion as possible.
As far as I can see they use the same steering box as the original; they just replace and improve the parts inside.
So the difference between this and Borgeson is that this will bolt right back on the car ?

 

[80mirada]

Firm Feel's boxes are the best the stock boxes you can get. They still have a small dead spot, but that is because of the way the control valve works. They are very good.

The Borgeson box is a much newer design and is much smaller and has a tighter center feel because the valve works differently

 

[M_Body_Coupe]

The Borgeson setup I believe starts off as the more modern Jeep box, but that's about where the similarities end.

Here is what I have done in the past:

1) coupler check - as outlined, make sure there is no slop there
2) steering box check - make sure you have very little play at the center, if you take too much out you will know very quickly, so this one is easy to get right, may still not give you that much, but it'll probably help a bit
3) power steering pressure valve fix - Borgeson also makes the little washer kit where you selectively install additional washers into the pump pressure valve, now keep in mind this has a lot more to do with the over-steering feeling than the slop, but sometimes these things may be playing off of each other

Anyways, over here I basically covered all of the above, had the luxury of completely re-doing the front end, so all new parts everywhere. The steering box was pretty tight already. The pressure valve fix had the biggest impact on road feel.

Having said that, as I pull the motor to drop the stroker build in I have the Borgeson box on stand-by and that is going in next. There is no substitute for new and modern tech stuff.

 

[Duke5A]

I bought two of those Borgeson boxes. There is simply no better box available that is a bolt-in. You will still get the slop at 12 o' clock with any factory style box - even the Firm Feel boxes.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Just grab any old Mopar box and strip it down. Remove the reaction discs and swap them into your box on top of the ones that are already in yours.
This will not only tighten up the steering, it will also take some of the assist away,especially the on center feel. IIRC, I installed 4 of them into my steering box, two atta time, to get the feel I wanted. That was in year 2000, so a long time ago. This is an easy upgrade.

You cannot take all the on-center dead part away, because then the control valve would be unable to call for assist, and you would have a fast-ratio, manual-steering, hard to turn steering wheel. I think the 4 extra discs in my box is perfect.

 

[Deleted member 1959]

The Borgeson setup I believe starts off as the more modern Jeep box, but that's about where the similarities end.

Here is what I have done in the past:

1) coupler check - as outlined, make sure there is no slop there
2) steering box check - make sure you have very little play at the center, if you take too much out you will know very quickly, so this one is easy to get right, may still not give you that much, but it'll probably help a bit
3) power steering pressure valve fix - Borgeson also makes the little washer kit where you selectively install additional washers into the pump pressure valve, now keep in mind this has a lot more to do with the over-steering feeling than the slop, but sometimes these things may be playing off of each other

Anyways, over here I basically covered all of the above, had the luxury of completely re-doing the front end, so all new parts everywhere. The steering box was pretty tight already. The pressure valve fix had the biggest impact on road feel.

Having said that, as I pull the motor to drop the stroker build in I have the Borgeson box on stand-by and that is going in next. There is no substitute for new and modern tech stuff.

1) I checked the coupler - it seems to be ok.
2) How do you make sure you have very little play at the center ? Can it be adjusted ?
3) I tried that trick with the washer and put a 1 mm thick washer in the valve. I couldn´t feel a difference though. The article I read about it said there should be a notable difference so I thought I did something wrong and didn´t put any more washers in there. How many mm did the trick for you ?.

 

[M_Body_Coupe]

2) How do you make sure you have very little play at the center ? Can it be adjusted ?

You need to look this up in the FSM, but the short of it is: you center the steering, loosen up the head sector bolt, tighten it down while checking that the steering wheel does NOT bind on center. That's about it.

3) I tried that trick with the washer and put a 1 mm thick washer in the valve. I couldn´t feel a difference though. The article I read about it said there should be a notable difference so I thought I did something wrong and didn´t put any more washers in there. How many mm did the trick for you ?.

5 shims totalling 0.100", so about 2.54mm. That gave me a nice feel, no more over-assist, at least as much as can be expected in the normally soft Mopar power steering setup.

 

[Duke5A]

5 shims totalling 0.100", so about 2.54mm. That gave me a nice feel, no more over-assist, at least as much as can be expected in the normally soft Mopar power steering setup.

Was your pump factory? I only ask because you can't be sure what valving the parts store rebuilds come with.