Will Not Start after Rat Returned

Justwondering · Nov 3, 2016

Rained a gully washer early this morning so it's time to wait for things to dry out.
Everything is on hold as of 3 am anyway husband health issues
Hope to get back to this early next week. Have to see how this episode turns out.

AJ/FormS · Nov 4, 2016

Before you pull that starter, ground the starter case back to the battery with a booster cable,and try again. Several times in nearly 47 years, and on cars that sit for awhile, I've had it happen where the bellhouse corrodes up between it and the starter nose, and then the juice can't get back to the battery. If that works,then the starter needs to come off and the surfaces brightened up.Cheap fix but still a pain.I have also seen the starter bolts work loose over time, and allow the same no-crank condition.
See if you pull the starter for a replacement, you will likely never catch this and the new starter works just fine. Sometimes the new starter acts just like the old one.
When the guys talk about tapping the starter, there's a good chance that they are thinking that this tapping restores the ground circuit.
But they may be thinking that the big copper washer in the solenoid is pitted and corroded enough to not connect, and this is also a very good possibility.That washer doesn't last forever. I used to (when I was broke as could be) take that solenoid apart and dress that washer, and or turn it around to add many more years of life to the starter.
Or they could be thinking that the armature brushes are so short, that they no longer want to touch like they're supposed to.Tapping the starter may cause them to lurch forward and connect. Brushes are cheap and easy to replace. Years ago the brush set was under $10 bucks Canadian.
But I suppose a new starter will eliminate at least the washer and the brushes as possibilities.
But try the booster-cable ground first before doing any tapping. Cuz if tapping works you won't know why until the next time you have to go through this again.But if the cable-thing works, then you know exactly what to do;namely clean the ground-return.

Justwondering · Nov 4, 2016

I just mailed the old brake booster back in to get my core charge monies. I have not messed with the starter yet but I have read many articles and watched several videos about rehabbing a starter.

I'll give your suggestion a try this weekend. Will update the thread when I have results.

Once I get a game plan, I should have the core money back to help pay for whatever solution will put me back on the road.

kkritsilas · Nov 4, 2016

When I said that people should try whacking the starter, the idea was to slightly shift the starter armature to get it away from an armature segment that is not burned or has carbon build up. If the condition you describe is preset, hitting the starter may actually due to the vibrations causing contact to ground. Should be able to find out in that case just by jumpering to the battery negative as you suggested, If it starts, then it was a ground issue. if it doesn't, then it isn't the ground; clena the ground connections and should be goot to go. If after this test, it doesn't start, and you whack the starter and it does start, then it is a burned armature segment, and you need a starter.

Justwondering · Nov 4, 2016

I have much to learn about the starter and electrical problems.
At some point I'll have a eureka moment and you all will feel the earth move...lol
For now, I'm just doing as you say until I anchor the concepts better.

I'm fuzz brain right now.. 3 days of health care issues but managed not to have to take husband to ER so its all gonna be good. Thanks to everyone for helping me on this.

old yellow 78 · Nov 4, 2016

My F150 recently did the same thing. Was running fine. Turned it off for about 10 minutes, went to start it again, and nothing. Somebody there told me to smack the starter with a wrench, and amazingly it worked!! But, I replaced the starter anyway because it was just a sign that it was going to poop out again sooner or later.

Justwondering · Nov 5, 2016

Thats what I did (personally) this week, pooped out early in the week but going stronger now. lol

Justwondering · Nov 27, 2016

I need someone to give me advice on removing the heat shield.

I got my new starters .. yes, somehow the interweb and I managed to order and receive two starters. Lots to return now.

I jacked up the car.
Placed two jackstands on the driver side.
Removed the jack.
Lay halfway under the car and used a 3/8 inch wrench to get the cap nut/nut backed off enough to get it off from the driver side of the shield.
Was able to get the front heat sheild nut off as well.

I have spent 2 hours and a dozen combinations of wrenches, sockets, and positions and I cannot figure out how to get the last nut off.

Tried laying under it from the front and the side.
Tried standing and leaning over, got my aluminum bench and kneeled on it and leaned over.
Tried extensions, angles, etc.
Had my husband stand over me and direct me to work blind trying to get a socket over the last nut.
Tried an extension going through the hole from the side just behind the driver's tire.

Nothing works.
The first 2 nuts I could move a quarter of a turn and use my fingers to back them off.
This last one, I can't seem to get a wrench to fit it.

Do I have to get the shield off to remove the wires and the bolts?

This simple project has me stumped.

I'm going to have to buy a borescope I believe.

brotherGood · Nov 27, 2016

Are you talking about the top bolt holding the starter on? If so, I used a 6 inch extension I think it was, and went in between the downpipe and the block.

Justwondering · Nov 27, 2016

The heat shield .. not the starter.
I have a heat shield that I've removed 1 bolt and 1 nut cap from but I can't get the 2nd (rear) nut off. It could be a bolt. I really can't tell from my service manual, because it seems to indicate there are only 2 fasteners for the heat shield.

But I swear, I cannot pull the heat shield off .. it is being held on by 1 more fastener.

AJ/FormS · Nov 27, 2016

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4064/4329392186_5102372c90.jpg

Try this; I see 3 fasteners; 2 from the radiator end, and one from the fender side. This last one appears to show a small bracket at about top center of the starter, that is screwed to the engine. And then the shield screws to the bracket.
But I tell you what; if the battery is disconnected, and if the shield is not in the way, there is no reason to remove the cables first;just go straight to that top bolt. On some cars I have removed that top bolt with a swivel-socket and a really long extension, to put the ratchet up near the radiator.If you leave the bottom one for last, then after you break the top one loose you can turn that long extension by hand, which makes it easier to keep the swivel-socket on the bolt head. I have seen some 318s with a stud there, making the job easier.Then you can sometimes reach in from underneath and spin the nut off by a finger.I have also got to that top bolt with a short combination wrench,using the box end.Then hooked a larger box wrench around the open end ears,thus being able to break it loose. Once loose, the shorty wrench is used to turn the nut off a couple of turns,until the spring washer lets go. After that I just finger it off if I can.This is how I get my starter off the FormulaS with the TTI-header in there and the Z-bar, and all the rest of that junk.

Justwondering · Nov 28, 2016

I was worried that the lines would have too much tension on them when the starter dropped. Sounds like I just need to put a platform under the starter so it doesn't drop too far AND that the last heat shield nut is attached to the starter, not to the car.

Thanks for the advice ... I'll try it when the rain stops today.

Justwondering · Nov 28, 2016

I still don't have the starter out, however; I do have the heat shield off.
(and the crowd goes wild!!!!)

The heat shield is held on by 1 bolt and 2 'fake' nuts... I have no idea what these jewels are called.

I looks like a nut but its just a cover that presses over the end of a stud.
I should have used a screwdriver under the edge and 'encouraged' it to move back off.

But since I thought it was a nut, I spent an inordinate amount of time looking for the 'correct' size of socket or box wrench. There is no match. Its a little too large or a little too small, a little too rounded off. Wow did I get frustrated.

I finally used a 3/8 inch long socket to rotate it 1/4 turn before it started to just rotate and not move. Pulled the socket off and used my fingers to encourage it off.

Now I have the heat shield off:

Justwondering · Nov 28, 2016

I cannot get the 5/8 nut to break loose.
I'll try more PB Blaster tomorrow and an impact wrench if I can get access to it.

I have a couple concerns.

1. The starter is completely rusted on the backend, I expected something like that. But the whole thing has a fluid leaked all over it.
Its not oil (not black). Not transmission fluid (not red).

It certainly looks like something is leaking since this thing is completely coated. And if you look in the previous post, its all over the heat shield as well.

Yes I have discovered more dirt dobber nests--like a never-ending, creepy treasure hunt.

2. My second question is about bolts.
I think I have a missing bolt at the top.
There appears to be a big bolt at the bottom. This is a 5/8 head which I cannot break loose.

Anyhow, I'm still amazed its taking me so long to do something that seems so simple.

Course, I also spent 4 hours working on the pressure tank and water lines. I need a new pump house, stronger hands, and smaller pipe wrenches.

volareandgtcat · Nov 28, 2016

The heat shield is held on by 1 bolt and 2 'fake' nuts... I have no idea what these jewels are called.

Well ... I can't help with the main problem ... those aluminium nuts is something we called "speed nuts" ... just a way for the automakers to shave pennies, and yes they taper so it's iffy to get a socket on them just right ... sorry I'm no help with the rest of the project but, I read your posts, very informative.

Justwondering · Nov 28, 2016

volareandgtcat ...
Sometimes I feel like I'm lost in the woods searching for the road to town.
Other times I feel like I can kick ass and take names.

Right now, I'd just like a new, dry piece of cardboard.

I think tomorrow I'll put a plastic tarp down before I put the cardboard down and I won't suck 4 hours into the water lines at the pump house. lol

BudW · Nov 28, 2016

That oily residue you refer to, is engine oil. A normal amount for time and miles (so nothing to be concerned with).
Giving the car a good bath helps beforehand, but won’t get rid of the oil entirely.

A worms eye view

Picture “A”
Item 1 – leave alone. Don’t worry about that transmission bolt (which also happens to be 5/8”).
Item 2 – there is a bolt there (refer to picture below). It does need to come out, before Item #3.
Item 3 – The second starter nut. Loosen this nut a smidge before removing bolt (Item #2).
Item 4 – also points to your transmission cooler lines and a clip that both pop into. That clip is one mentioned before that you can usually leave in place but slide forward a couple of inches (generally attaches behind nut (Item #3).

Note: Bolt (#2) and nut (#3) are both 5/8” hex.

A birds eye view.

Picture “B”
A 5/8” end wrench to loosen bolt and generally finger it out while gently wigging starter (if Nut #3 is loosened a smidge), which (IMO) is faster than getting a socket wrench and extension hooked up.

Both the bolt and nut are easiest to access from under car (also IMO). The stud will hold the starter up – until you are in position for it to drop down.

You can remove starter wires after starter has dropped down but I think it is easier to do before you remove the two starter fasteners.

BudW

Justwondering · Nov 28, 2016

I have the smaller starter wire removed.
But got sidetracked on why these 5/8 beasts don't want to back off.
LOL
I'm sure it has nothing to do with the 4 hours I spent bent over in my pump house trying to get the lines, unions, teflon, pressure tank, pump working again so I could wash dishes, clothes and self.

I'll try loosing the other one first and have a go at the bottom one again.

Thanks for your help.

BudW · Nov 28, 2016

That 5/8” nut and bolt are on fairly tight.
A short end wrench won’t get them loose. A normal end wrench still takes a bit of oomph but will do it. A long end wrench is great – but not in everyone’s tool box.

Cambo · Nov 29, 2016

If you are careful and have the room you can try doubling up the wrench. Works great in a pinch, but if you slip it's busted knuckles.

Will Not Start after Rat Returned

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