Power steering issue

Deleted member 1959 · Jun 22, 2017

Hi folks

The power steering on my 79 Lebaron is working fine when I drive along, but not in idle when it´s needed the most..
I know some work has been done to it when it came to Denmark, and the seller said it had an issue with turning more to one side than the other, but that should have been fixed.
I can see the oil looks nice and new (red - probably ATF) and the level is ok.
It only needs a little revving to become active when doing parking manouvers, but it´s still annoying.
There are no squeeks or other noises coming from it.
I noticed today that it turns the wheel slightly to the right when I rev it in Park.
Any suggestions to what the issue can be (pressure regulator / worn pump) ?

Aspen500 · Jun 22, 2017

It should have power steering fluid (basically clear) and not ATF for one thing. That wouldn't cause the problem directly, but could over time. Without having a pressure gauge hooked into the system it's hard to say what is wrong. First guess would be the pump is worn and not pumping enough at idle. There are also seals in the steering gear that could leak internally and bleed off pressure. As I said, hard to say for sure without proper diagnosis.

If the wheel turns one way or the other on it's own, the valve on top of the box needs adjusted (i.e. centered). This is done with the engine running by SLIGHTLY loosening the 2 bolts and GENTLY tapping the valve body to move it one direction or the other. It doesn't take much. The trick is to have them loose enough so it can move, but not so loose the o-ring seals leak. I forget off hand which way to move the valve body for a given "auto steer" direction. It's kind of a tedious adjustment to get perfect.

You may want to flush out the ATF and put actual power steering fluid in first and see if it makes an improvement before digging any further. Generally the only make to use ATF in the past was Ford and they seemed to have more p.s. problems and noise than the other makes (was a Ford dealer tech from 1986-2007).

Deleted member 1959 · Jun 23, 2017

Hi Aspen500
Thanks for the ideas. I spoke to the guy who repaired the PS before I bought the car, and he had the same advice on how to adjust the direction valve.
He confirmed that he had filled the system with ATF, and he says he has always used this on all the old cars. I remember I used it also in my 67 Olds Toronado because everyone said that this was normal.
What is the difference between ATF / PS fluid / Hydraulic fluid and what could be the long-term issues ?
If I flush out the ATF will any PS fluid do ? I have some hydraulic fluid that I used on an Audi 5000. Would this be ok too ?

Aspen500 · Jun 23, 2017

You're right, older GM's used ATF also.
The difference between ATF and power steering fluid is viscosity, lubricity, resistance to aeration, as well as others that would take way too much typing to explain.

Not exactly the same thing but think of putting ATF in the engine instead of engine oil. The wrong type fluid can deteriorate seals and cause excessive wear long term. At any rate you should use what the system was designed for. In this case, power steering fluid.

Yes, any fluid that's called power steering fluid will be fine. It's similar to hydraulic fluid but not the same thing. Far as I know, Audi power steering fluid is fine in a Mopar.

Changing the fluid might not cure the concern but at least you'll know what the cause ISN'T

Thought of one thing and it sounds basic but, check to be sure the belt isn't slipping also. I've run into that in the past at work, back when cars still had v-belts and manual tensioning. P.S. problem or charging system problem or overheating caused simply by a slipping belt.

AJ/FormS · Jun 23, 2017

What is the in-gear idle speed? Maybe you just need 50 more rpm.

Deleted member 1959 · Jun 24, 2017

Hi AJ
I thought about adjusting the idle speed which is 550 rpm according to my multimeter. Maybe its a bit too low but the engine sounds ok. I will try that too.
The cheeky solution would be to get a smaller pulley to up the rpm on the pump.

The V-belt is new so friction should be ok.

Aspen500 · Jun 24, 2017

If your emission decal is still on the inner fender, it will specify the idle rpm. The service manual doesn't have the spec listed because it's not the same for all engines and emission types.

Deleted member 1959 · Jun 24, 2017

Thanks all.
I just looked in the Chrysler manual, it specifically says: Do not use automatic transmission fluid !
I will change the oil next time I have a few days off and take it from there

volare 77 · Jun 25, 2017

If I cannot locate the decal then I usually set the idle on most stock applications at around 650 rpm to start with and may go more if necessary.

Deleted member 1959 · Jun 26, 2017

So I got the fluid changed to proper PS fluid. It made a difference right away since I can now easily turn the wheel left at idle, but it needs a bit of force to turn right.
So I guess this is the time to try and adjust it with the two screws on top of the steering box as Aspen 500 mentioned. I have a picture of the box - Is it the two arrowed screws I need to loosen to do this ?

Aspen500 · Jun 26, 2017

Yes, those are the ones. As I mentioned, only loosen them enough so light taps with a hammer can move it but not so loose the seals start leaking.

This adjustment is mainly for "self steer" but can also affect turning effort. If it's still stiff to the right, then it's a seal leaking internally inside the steering gear. Hopefully, it's just the valve adjustment!
I overhauled a Mopar box,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,once. It came out fine but, NEVER AGAIN! lol

BudW · Jun 27, 2017

I thought about freehand drawing a picture, or two, on how and why that valve needs to be adjusted – but decided to look online instead. I do remember Rick Ehrenberg doing a detailed explanation on this a few years back, for Mopar Action Magazine (now out of business).
He has the article but it’s not available online, yet.

This information is from my ’77 FSM talking about adjustment. Mote: it actually talks about valve removal, overhauled, reinstalled then adjusted – so two thirds doesn’t apply. I went ahead and copied it anyway.

The part that needs to be re-centered is this rod – called the pivot lever (red arrow in picture). It senses the steering gear being turned and applies hydrolytic assist to turn car. That rod is “thinking” car is already in a turn and is applying the variable P/S assist already.
Once it is re-centered, all should be back to normal, again.

BudW

Deleted member 1959 · Jul 15, 2017

Hi all
Thanks for the comprehensive info and good advice. Changing the fluid from ATF to hydraulic PS fluid made a huge difference, so I´m not going to try to mess with the centering. -Bud - I have saved your above info for future use.

I am in the process of building a stock of spare parts and would like to get new timing chain also from Rockauto. I have read that a worn timing chain could alter the ignition timing, so maybe it would be good to get a new one. The car has 51K miles on it, so I hope it´s still ok.
However; Rockauto has about 10-20 types and I have no idea which one to choose, so I´m a bit stuck there.

- Claus

Aspen500 · Jul 15, 2017

As a timing chain wears, the cam timing will get retarded which does the same to the ignition timing. You can adjust the ignition but the cam timing will cause reduced power. A stock cam gear has nylon teeth that can fail without warning. What I mean is, everything will seem fine and then the engine won't start. For some reason they seem to fail when the engine is shut down and then you try to restart.

Which timing set you get kind of depends on what the car is used for. A stock replacement is fine for a stock, daily driver type of car. Better is a double roller chain set. You may notice a slight bit of noise from it vs a stock chain but the noise is all but unnoticable unless you listen for it.

When you do change the timing set, I'd recommend adding a tensioner at the same time. Mopar made them for the '97 and up 3.9L Magnum V-6 to eliminate the chain rattle at idle but it retrofits to all LA engines (and the poly 'A' engines back to at least 1960). It replaces the cam thrust plate. Direct bolt on.
Cloyes Heavy-Duty Timing Sets C-3028
Cloyes Replacement Timing Chain Tensioners 9-5387

Deleted member 1959 · Jul 15, 2017

Thanks for pointing out the right parts. I have created an account with Summit now for future use.
Can´t believe the stock gear has nylon teeth. Sounds like a setup asking for trouble..

89.Fifth · Jul 15, 2017

Toro67 said:
Thanks for pointing out the right parts. I have created an account with Summit now for future use.
Can´t believe the stock gear has nylon teeth. Sounds like a setup asking for trouble..

That's a very good set but I personally prefer double rollers: COMP Cams Magnum Double Roller Timing Sets 2103

Either one is excellent. When you first get them installed you'll notice some extra noise. Mine sounded like a supercharger for about a month before slowly fading.

Aspen500 · Jul 15, 2017

I only posted the Cloyes as a reference. Stock gears have nylon teeth because they run quiet. Not just Mopar, but Ford and GM as well as others also used nylon toothed cam sprockets. As I said, the usually fail suddenly and at the worst possible time and place.
Summit is an excellent company (the best IMO). I didn't see the tensioner listed from Rock Auto. I'm sure they probably have it though.

Advantage of a roller chain (single or double) is they tend to last longer and and are quite a bit stronger than a standard link chain. If you want to get technical, there's also a reduction in friction drag.

With the tensioner, it'll be a b**** to get the cam sprocket on but it will go. Almost like the tensioner could use a hair more travel. Once it's all on and you pull the pin out that holds the spring compressed, it'll barely move. Once the chain wears in though, it will keep all the slack out. Even a double roller with 100 miles on it will seem loose but that's normal.

BudW · Jul 15, 2017

The reason for going to Nylon gears was: A: Cheaper to stamp out, and B: quieter.

I will agree - Nylon gears ares both “cheap” and quieter.
That said, I would not install Nylon gears into anything in my fleet.
I would also suggest to customer it is to their advantage to upgrade to the steel double-roller design.

I have removed/replaced hundreds of nylon timing gears over the years – and on most of them, the Nylon teeth are either worn down to nothing or teeth have broken off – enough, in both cases, to allow engine to jump time (ie: you are now walking, instead of driving - until fixed).

Double-roller timing chains are a slight bit noisier. The cheaper sets, the chains will stretch faster than the more expensive ones will – over time.
I never seen a Chrysler /6 or V8 with a double-roller jump time before.

My thoughts on buying a timing chain:
Double-roller is a must
Avoid no-name or “you hadn’t heard of them before” chain sets
Recommend popular brand name(s), and tend to favor more expensive chains because they don’t stretch as much in the long run.
The chain tensioner is not a must – for 99.9% of small blocks never had them – but also I highly recommend adding one. Down the road, a snug timing chain helps with timing being more consistent, idle smoothness and other things.

All Chrysler engines (/6 small or big block) came with Nylon gear s (sense mid ‘60’s, or earlier) - except for high performance, police, taxi, or those with heavy duty engines.

Note: the only difference between a normal and heavy duty (car or light truck) engine – is the timing chain (and in some years, the crank bearing material and some years, valve rotaters).
BudW

Deleted member 1959 · Jul 16, 2017

Hi guys
I really appreciate the help and all the automotive background info that comes with it

I have owned 7 very different classic cars over the years and I think half the fun is finding out things about the particular model and its place in the companys´ history. I know my LeBaron was made in the year when Chrysler was in serious trouble and posted a $1,1 Billion loss. Still they managed to turn out this beautiful thing and turn things around soon after.

Yesterday I took it for a 15 mile trip around the area. It runs but still not smoothly. It is most notable in idle, but the problem seems to be there over the entire rev range. Everything in connection with the ignition has now been changed. I tried to measure the timing but couldn´t get a reading on it. (What is it supposed to be in idle ?) I was thinking if the timing chain was worn it could affect the ignition timing. But then again it could also be the carb or the SCC system acting up. Yesterday it just died while idling.. Started right up again. I guess I need some professional help to get to the core of this problem before I resort to removing the SCC and replacing the carb altogether.

Aspen500 · Jul 16, 2017

You'd be alright running 5-10* BTDC initial timing, depending on the quality of the fuel you guys have over there. If the chain is worn, the ignition timing will be retarded unless it's adjusted to compensate but the valve timing is still going to be late.

Chrysler Corp did put out some good cars in '79. Just 2 years later the K-Car came out and saved the company. Guess it was the right car at the right time. Basic, cheap and boring but they sold millions of them with all the K-Car variations.

Power steering issue

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