drpreposterous
Well-Known Member
A. Holley Sniper
B. FiTech
C. Factory set up
D. Keep the durned carb and Lean Burn!
B. FiTech
C. Factory set up
D. Keep the durned carb and Lean Burn!
318 with fuel injection debate
- Thread starter drpreposterous
- Start date
Oldiron440
Well-Known Member
I'd go with the Holley Sniper system, the FItech is a China company but the programmer is from Mason City IA. but the kit's are not as compleat as Holley.
I'd skip the leanburn and go with a conversation distributor electronic kit and a thermoquad if you can tune!
The Holley is the way to go for about $1300, after all a new carb can cost $500 and up. The only thing I've heard negative about them was thay were hard to run on an engine dyno because of the need to learn fuel curves can't be just programmed in.
I'd skip the leanburn and go with a conversation distributor electronic kit and a thermoquad if you can tune!
The Holley is the way to go for about $1300, after all a new carb can cost $500 and up. The only thing I've heard negative about them was thay were hard to run on an engine dyno because of the need to learn fuel curves can't be just programmed in.
89.Fifth
Well-Known Member
On the Holley Sniper I would point to this thread:
Major Issues After Install
Which can be summarized here:
Major Issues After Install
Which can be summarized here:
SixBanger
Well-Known Member
Are there no other vehincle throttlevalve boddy's that could fit an 318 and get an megasquirt?
AJ/FormS
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Some modest improvement in performance can be had by putting some decent timing into the engine, and/or deleting the lean-burn...EFI by itself does not make significant power, but it can improve driveability, especially in colder climates.
But the big thing is getting rid of 2.xx series gears.
As long as those 2 series gears are in there, your car will remain sluggish no matter with carb, or EFI.
For example; 2.45 gears won't hit 3000 rpm in first gear until around 38mph. and 64 in second gear. If you allow the trans to shift itself, it's a bloody slow ride to 64 in top gear. You can do anything you want to the engine as regards timing and fueling, and it will not significantly affect your zero to 60mph ET.Even if you found 10 ftpounds at 3000rpm, this only maths out to 5.7hp. Contrasting to 2.94s over 2.45s, this is a 20% across the board torque multiplier, and will make it feel and perform like the engine gained the same 20% torque. At 3000rpm this could feel like more than 20 horsepower.
IMO, as long as those 2.45s (or less) are in there you would be terribly disappointed in EFI, or more precisely, the bang for the buck of installing it.
By contrast gears are cheap and effective, and in my experience, a modest increase in hiway rpm, does not affect fuel economy as much as one might imagine, especially in a city-mostly car.
Heavy carbed FMJs have been known to break into the 20s mpgUS, on the hiway.But the hiway gears in them,sure make city-driving hard to put up with...... IMO.
But the big thing is getting rid of 2.xx series gears.
As long as those 2 series gears are in there, your car will remain sluggish no matter with carb, or EFI.
For example; 2.45 gears won't hit 3000 rpm in first gear until around 38mph. and 64 in second gear. If you allow the trans to shift itself, it's a bloody slow ride to 64 in top gear. You can do anything you want to the engine as regards timing and fueling, and it will not significantly affect your zero to 60mph ET.Even if you found 10 ftpounds at 3000rpm, this only maths out to 5.7hp. Contrasting to 2.94s over 2.45s, this is a 20% across the board torque multiplier, and will make it feel and perform like the engine gained the same 20% torque. At 3000rpm this could feel like more than 20 horsepower.
IMO, as long as those 2.45s (or less) are in there you would be terribly disappointed in EFI, or more precisely, the bang for the buck of installing it.
By contrast gears are cheap and effective, and in my experience, a modest increase in hiway rpm, does not affect fuel economy as much as one might imagine, especially in a city-mostly car.
Heavy carbed FMJs have been known to break into the 20s mpgUS, on the hiway.But the hiway gears in them,sure make city-driving hard to put up with...... IMO.
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I read through all 11 pages of that guys install issues on the Holley forum. He's got some weird ass wiring issues between the self described mess at the back of the engine, cheap alternators, etc etc. He even described being able to visually see the tach going nuts when the ECU also went nuts.
These things are susceptible to line noise. Holley makes a big deal about this and so do all the other manufactures. That being said mine runs great with about a 1k miles on it so far. Alternator is a GM 12si 150 amp one wire from Power Master. Car currently has an MSD distributor with an older analog 6AL box for spark. The plan for this year is to pickup a Holley distributor that uses hall effect and wire it for timing control.
Oldiron440
Well-Known Member
That's the thing, any EFI is only going to be as good as the installation. If the rest of the wiring is halfassed your inviting problems.
I know of three cars with the Sniper kit and only one had a problem, that was with a water temp sender.
I know of three cars with the Sniper kit and only one had a problem, that was with a water temp sender.
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drpreposterous
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the good input, everyone!
If gearing gets more bang for the buck, would you do it with 8.25 rear?
drpreposterous
Well-Known Member
Or even 8.75? Note: 2.94 gears. Really appreciate feedback as I am not a wrench turner and struggle even in shallow ponds.
71 Challenger 8 3/4 Rear end Mopar
71 Challenger 8 3/4 Rear end Mopar
Rustyroger
Well-Known Member
Over here someone with a Hillman Avenger (Plymouth Cricket to you guys) fitted a fuel injection system from a 4 cylinder VW.
He drilled and welded the inlet manifold to accept the injectors correctly angled and adapted the MAF sensor, temperature sensor, and the other bits and pieces to fit. He also drilled and tapped the exhaust manifold for the O2 sensor. The engine was modified with a hot cam, gas flowed head and other goodies. He used the ecu from the donor car but reckoned it would be no big deal to make a stand alone unit.
He claimed it helped considerably in making the car driveable in traffic, the big carbs he had before were very tricky to get just right, and also its fuel consumption was quite remarkable, almost on a par with the stock setup if he didn't bury his right foot. It was by some margin the fastest Avenger I ever rode in, quite capable of embarrassing many hot hatches.
He was a clever guy and knew what he was about, but it makes me wonder if a similar thing could be done to an old fashioned 318 or 360?. There are plenty of V8 powered injected donor cars in junkyards.
You would perhaps an above average level of expertise, and access to fairly sophisticated engineering tools, as well as an understanding of how modern fuel injection systems work.
Anyone done something like this?.
Roger.
He drilled and welded the inlet manifold to accept the injectors correctly angled and adapted the MAF sensor, temperature sensor, and the other bits and pieces to fit. He also drilled and tapped the exhaust manifold for the O2 sensor. The engine was modified with a hot cam, gas flowed head and other goodies. He used the ecu from the donor car but reckoned it would be no big deal to make a stand alone unit.
He claimed it helped considerably in making the car driveable in traffic, the big carbs he had before were very tricky to get just right, and also its fuel consumption was quite remarkable, almost on a par with the stock setup if he didn't bury his right foot. It was by some margin the fastest Avenger I ever rode in, quite capable of embarrassing many hot hatches.
He was a clever guy and knew what he was about, but it makes me wonder if a similar thing could be done to an old fashioned 318 or 360?. There are plenty of V8 powered injected donor cars in junkyards.
You would perhaps an above average level of expertise, and access to fairly sophisticated engineering tools, as well as an understanding of how modern fuel injection systems work.
Anyone done something like this?.
Roger.
SixBanger
Well-Known Member
I don't know if this would be more of an project or more plug and play swap. I agree with AJ/FromS to spend dollars on gears.
But just for some info of the ability to setup an efi project. Megasquirt has some good people on the forum and a setup manual.
How to MegaSquirt Your Vehicle With Vintage Mopar Ignitions - DIYAutoTune.com
I think the most important is to where to fit the right sensors and get some raw setup data (VE table).
But just for some info of the ability to setup an efi project. Megasquirt has some good people on the forum and a setup manual.
How to MegaSquirt Your Vehicle With Vintage Mopar Ignitions - DIYAutoTune.com
I think the most important is to where to fit the right sensors and get some raw setup data (VE table).
Oldiron440
Well-Known Member
Guys have trouble with the Holley setup that's well thought out has very good instructions and technical support but there suppose to build there own setup.Over here someone with a Hillman Avenger (Plymouth Cricket to you guys) fitted a fuel injection system from a 4 cylinder VW.
He drilled and welded the inlet manifold to accept the injectors correctly angled and adapted the MAF sensor, temperature sensor, and the other bits and pieces to fit. He also drilled and tapped the exhaust manifold for the O2 sensor. The engine was modified with a hot cam, gas flowed head and other goodies. He used the ecu from the donor car but reckoned it would be no big deal to make a stand alone unit.
He claimed it helped considerably in making the car driveable in traffic, the big carbs he had before were very tricky to get just right, and also its fuel consumption was quite remarkable, almost on a par with the stock setup if he didn't bury his right foot. It was by some margin the fastest Avenger I ever rode in, quite capable of embarrassing many hot hatches.
He was a clever guy and knew what he was about, but it makes me wonder if a similar thing could be done to an old fashioned 318 or 360?. There are plenty of V8 powered injected donor cars in junkyards.
You would perhaps an above average level of expertise, and access to fairly sophisticated engineering tools, as well as an understanding of how modern fuel injection systems work.
Anyone done something like this?.
Roger.
There you go that makes perfect sense.
AJ/FormS
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Heck yeah. It would take a fair bit of violence for a teener to break an 8.25
Gears is always the first thing I do; sometimes the only thing; sometimes a string of them,lol. I've mostly had 8.75s since 1970, and at one time I had a string of chunks from 2.76 to 4.30 and a couple more besides.
But I've also built a few 8.25s.
A stock 318 with 4.10s doesn't feel like a 318 at all. It runs thru the gears PDQ. And I never had a customer complain about the bigger gears.
I only ever had two cars with 2.45s, and those were hiway cars, so that was fine. Not all 8.25s will accept bigger gears without also swapping the case, (the thing the big round gear is mounted on). I think you can put 2.76 and bigger into a rearend that had 2.45s, but it will also cost you either a different case (no big deal if swapping in a SureGrip at the same time), or a ring-gear spacer.
If you have smaller than 2.45s (like 2.2s), I have no personal experience with those. I HEARD those are a one-gear only deal, so you have to swap the whole thing out. Also not a big deal cuz, I also HEARD that the Ford 8.8, or certain Jeeps, can be fitted without much work.
So you have several options. But you should probably figure out what gears your car currently has, so you can begin to figure out where you want to go.
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The current plan (which might be subject to change . . .) for my ’86 Fifth Ave is to install a stroked big block, A727 (or overdrive automatic) and for a 4-bbl appearing fuel injection (not yet decided on which – yet). This car currently is a 318 2-bbl A999 7¼” with 2.2 gears. I have an 8¼” with 2.9’s ready to install into the car but not if I can find an 8¾” before then. The differential is scheduled to be changed out this spring/early summer (that cars first major change).
For my ’77 Volare wagon. It currently has a 318 2-bbl A904 8¼” with 2.9 gears. It will be updated with a stroked big block (I’m building both engines at once) and 4-bbl appearing F.I. The A904 is to be replaced with either a 5-speed or 6-speed manual and 8¾” with most likely 3.5 gears.
For all practical purposes – both cars weight about the same, both have 318 2-bbls and automatics. The wagon, with 2.9’s will run circles around the Fifth Ave (with 2.2’s) until car get about 30-40 MPH – and only difference is the gear ratio! The 2.9 is not a performance gear and is the BARE MINUMIN gear to go. 3.07 (Jeep) or 3.2 is a far better gear ratio to go with – just as AJ has mentioned, above.
Start with gears first and then work on where you want to go afterwards.
If you want to go 8¾” – the ’65-70 B-body differential is an almost direct bolt in part. The differential mentioned in post #9 (above) will fit, but quite a few modifications will need to be made, first.
Also, if you are performing any differential work/repairs – I highly recommend to also install a limited slip carrier at same time. Even if you do not plan on making a powerful car. A limited slip carrier has many advantages and the only disadvantage is the additional cost.
Note: I will not repair or rebuild a differential for friends, family, myself, etc. without installing limited slip. Other paying customers, yes – but not until I tell them about what they are missing.
In my case, I drive both of my cars daily. Both cars will get upgraded to F.I. – hopefully before the big block install. What I want to do is install a 2-bbl appearing F.I. now – which can be (should be?) converted (easily) to a 4-bbl appearing system later. In my case, I have no intention on modifying my 318’s for performance use – so a 4-bbl appearing F.I. system is doable but overkill (I just don’t want to have to mess with kickdown linkage (and so on) issues, at this time).
Fuel injection is well worth the effort for drivability, fuel mileage and so forth – but none of the options out there is a simple change over. A couple of years ago – I began to compare systems (company’s, various platforms, and so forth) and found a long list of people selling systems.
Holley has been making fuel injection parts for GM and Chrysler sense the ‘80’s – so replacement parts are somewhat easy to find. With that said – I’m still undecided on which system (and Holley is lower on my list).
I do highly encourage to use shielded wiring for your fuel injection system, to protect from electrical signal interference.
BudW
For my ’77 Volare wagon. It currently has a 318 2-bbl A904 8¼” with 2.9 gears. It will be updated with a stroked big block (I’m building both engines at once) and 4-bbl appearing F.I. The A904 is to be replaced with either a 5-speed or 6-speed manual and 8¾” with most likely 3.5 gears.
For all practical purposes – both cars weight about the same, both have 318 2-bbls and automatics. The wagon, with 2.9’s will run circles around the Fifth Ave (with 2.2’s) until car get about 30-40 MPH – and only difference is the gear ratio! The 2.9 is not a performance gear and is the BARE MINUMIN gear to go. 3.07 (Jeep) or 3.2 is a far better gear ratio to go with – just as AJ has mentioned, above.
Start with gears first and then work on where you want to go afterwards.
If you want to go 8¾” – the ’65-70 B-body differential is an almost direct bolt in part. The differential mentioned in post #9 (above) will fit, but quite a few modifications will need to be made, first.
Also, if you are performing any differential work/repairs – I highly recommend to also install a limited slip carrier at same time. Even if you do not plan on making a powerful car. A limited slip carrier has many advantages and the only disadvantage is the additional cost.
Note: I will not repair or rebuild a differential for friends, family, myself, etc. without installing limited slip. Other paying customers, yes – but not until I tell them about what they are missing.
In my case, I drive both of my cars daily. Both cars will get upgraded to F.I. – hopefully before the big block install. What I want to do is install a 2-bbl appearing F.I. now – which can be (should be?) converted (easily) to a 4-bbl appearing system later. In my case, I have no intention on modifying my 318’s for performance use – so a 4-bbl appearing F.I. system is doable but overkill (I just don’t want to have to mess with kickdown linkage (and so on) issues, at this time).
Fuel injection is well worth the effort for drivability, fuel mileage and so forth – but none of the options out there is a simple change over. A couple of years ago – I began to compare systems (company’s, various platforms, and so forth) and found a long list of people selling systems.
Holley has been making fuel injection parts for GM and Chrysler sense the ‘80’s – so replacement parts are somewhat easy to find. With that said – I’m still undecided on which system (and Holley is lower on my list).
I do highly encourage to use shielded wiring for your fuel injection system, to protect from electrical signal interference.
BudW
drpreposterous
Well-Known Member
Bud, may I ask, what's higher on your list than Holley?
Thanks, Brian
BTW, I found an 8.75 rear end with sure grip, sourced from a B body, but not knowing prices, don't know if that's high.
chrysler 8 3/4 rear end 488 posi
Thanks, Brian
BTW, I found an 8.75 rear end with sure grip, sourced from a B body, but not knowing prices, don't know if that's high.
chrysler 8 3/4 rear end 488 posi
4.88? Damn. Drag racing? Buy mine. I'm asking $600 and I'm right next door to you. 1966 B body rear that was modied to F/J/M - it'll bolt right in. 4.10 SG complete drum to drum, but it does need brake hardware.
Oldiron440
Well-Known Member
4.88 gear is deap for street driving.
The shop that I work with on my dyno work builds systems with Fast components and I think the typical sbc will run about 5k. For this its fully tunable and comes with a tablet.
Personally I would think a turbo build would be the perfect solution for the 80s smog dog, that and FI.
You could easily have a reliable 500 hp driver. There's no reason to push for every last bit of power just keep it reliable. A 318 with ten pounds of boost could be fun and run on premium unleaded for around 400 hp. The 8.25 axle would live with a turbo because the shock load is smaller and more graduel.
I am thinking about FI for my sbf project but I will use a port injection setup not TBI.
The shop that I work with on my dyno work builds systems with Fast components and I think the typical sbc will run about 5k. For this its fully tunable and comes with a tablet.
Personally I would think a turbo build would be the perfect solution for the 80s smog dog, that and FI.
You could easily have a reliable 500 hp driver. There's no reason to push for every last bit of power just keep it reliable. A 318 with ten pounds of boost could be fun and run on premium unleaded for around 400 hp. The 8.25 axle would live with a turbo because the shock load is smaller and more graduel.
I am thinking about FI for my sbf project but I will use a port injection setup not TBI.
drpreposterous
Well-Known Member
Actually, Duke, I'd be grateful. Is 4.10 not a little much too for street use? I thought you guys were saying 3.23 or 2.94 were pretty much ideal for ordinary yokels like me. Will PM you my cell number. If you think it's eminently streetable, consider it sold, please. And any info I can pass on to the guys doing for me (no wrench turner I), including brake hardware, would be wonderful. Thanks, Brian
BTW, guys, I'm thinking the rear end swap and elec ignition might be all I need based on your comments.
BTW, guys, I'm thinking the rear end swap and elec ignition might be all I need based on your comments.
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Oldiron440
Well-Known Member
That is a good deal!!!!!
Somebody better grab it quick.!!
drpreposterous
Well-Known Member
Working on it! Not to be grabby, but I want it!
