383, A sense of direction

[Camtron]

I’ll be getting my hands on a 1968, 383 B short block in the next couple of days. Block, rods, crank and caps, magnafluxed, tanked and cleaned up, ready to rebuild at standard bore. I plan on keeping it at the stock 4.25” bore and building what would be a relatively stock 383; probably cut some weight with aluminum heads, aluminum intake and headers. Plan to stick a 727 behind it with the 8.25” rear end and 3.23 gears I have in the garage. Keep things relatively mild and basic overall, nothing special at all realistically.
I wanted to go for a build that will easily move the weight of an M body (with or without highway gears) and give me the over HP/TQ I’m looking for without necessarily being a performance build and a 383 will get me just that.
I’ve done a bunch of googling and reading online about BB swaps in the last year but haven’t ever attempted one first hand. So, if any of you have tips, tricks or part advice that will make things easier that you’d like to share, I’m all ears and appreciate it.
This puts me closer to finally parking my Fifth Ave and making it a legit long term project...maybe in the springtime I can find a nice 90s New Yorker or Dynasty to be my new daily.

 

[AJ/FormS]

It's a 52 year old block, and you want to keep the stock bore? Well I hope you have a dial-bore gauge,know how to set it up, and how to read it.
If you go to aluminum heads, they like lots of compression, and the best way to get it is with new hi-compression pistons. If you can afford the heads, you should really think about it.
And you want to install this in a M, for which AFAIK,there is no K-member made, and you cannot install it onto a stock 318 K. And you want to run headers on top of that, for which there is also no guaranteed fit.

Hang on; this is messed up.
Back up the bus.
I hi-torque REBUILT 360 will cover all your bases, while being a drop-in onto a 318 K-member. You can even keep the A/C, which in Chicago, could come in pretty handy.
You can bore a 360 out to 4.04 and get a 367 which is only 16 cubes (just 4%) behind the 383. The 383 is a big-bore, short stroke, hi-reving animal; whereas the 360 is a moderate-bore long stroke engine, much better suited to motivating a 3.23 equipped Mopar tank, I mean FMJ.
And the 360 falls together at over 10/1 Scr with aluminum heads, could be as high as 11/1 depending on the components chosen. You can make 440 torque with that 11/1
IMHO, unless you are a seasoned fabricator, I would forget about the 383 for this application.

If nothing else, you can drop a stroker crank into your 318, and make a 100% applicable to your combo, 388 cuber at 3.93bore, and with a 4" stroke, and it will make monster low-rpm torque, to push that 4000 pound behemoth around, pretty good, with the 3.23s. Plus; with the new 795 cc of swept, you are gonna have trouble keeping the cylinder pressure low enough, instead pulling all the tricks you can imagine, to bring it up. Aluminum, small-valve, big-chamber, heads, will help. With a 4" arm in there, you can run a lotta cam, before the low-rpm goes soft.
Or, if you wanted to, for your application, I could imagine running the factory 318 heads, because with 3.23s yur never gonna need to spin it really fast, because you are not looking for a race-car engine. I bet you could even leave the factory 2.45 gears in there, with upgraded guts in the 998/999, and just make sure you have a SG in the diff. This is getting cheaper/easier, by the second.
Geewhiz, I shouldda done that to the FA I inherited when Dad died, instead of giving it away.

With 3.23s, 30 mph; in 2.74 first gear is 3300 @zeroslip, 40 is 4400; and 50 is 5500; at WOT these could be 8 to 10 % higher.
With 2.45s,lol, 65 is 5400@zeroslip..... still in first gear; perhaps 5800 at WOT.

But I'll venture to say in day to day driving, you might shift at 3000, so this is 26mph into second and 47mph into third with the 3.23s, finishing at 65=2600/zeroslip. That 4" arm with hi-compression, is gonna make this a pleasure.

Plus saying your M has a 388, just sounds sooooooo cool.
Like 396 Chevelle; 402 wouldda never cut it.
Like 260 Falcon
Like the wife has 38s
Or how about 6.4 liters. (388=6.358liters), Just toss that out at the car show, say it with me; " Hyup; I installed a 6.4 in there, and with the 3.23s, at 65mph,she only uses about 10 to 12 liters per 100km; and I'm still tuning on that."
The 383 won't touch that.

 

[Camtron]

There are engine mounts that will locate a 383 into an M body with little issue. Yes, I’d like to run headers if possible, which is why my OP said “probably”. I’ve already decided on boring it to 4.28 and getting my hands on a nice 440 source stroker kit. I’ve been up all night thinking about this.
If I wanted a 360, I’d have gotten a 360. Oh, I also have a college degree in applied science of welding technologies, work in a fabrication shop. Thanks for the advice, AJ.
Edit, if I’m putting money and time into pulling and engine and buying a stroker kit, I’m not waste time on a 318. How many guys on here went through more than one engine build before they went big block? Quite a few. No sense in wasting time, just build for what I want.

 

[XfbodyX]

Meh.

 

[AJ/FormS]

No sense in wasting time, just build for what I want.

Can't argue with that;
But now yur doing a stroker. In less than 3 hours you have changed your mind. Yur already following my advice whether you know it or not. And your hard-headedness is taking you down a long and arduous path. And the end result will be what? Oh about $12,000Plus in parts, labor, sublets, and a trail of busted, and also-ran parts. And a combo you can only drive at 100%, in a few places in America.
I got my degree in 50 years of doing stuff, and never ever have I wanted a BB. My current combo is 20 years old, and still has the same longblock in it. The only major thing I have changed, is to take the monster cam out of it, subbing in a 3-sizes smaller one, then 1-bigger, when the smaller dropped lobes.

But you're right; the title of the thread is
383; sense of direction
and now has become
432BB/727/8.25/3.23 M-body, tire frying money-pit.
So I apologize if I zeroed in on this;

Keep things relatively mild and basic overall, nothing special at all realistically.

 

[Camtron]

3 hours? Did you actually read the time stamps on my post? No, no you didn’t. Didn’t recall posting about trying to working inside any type of budget or timeline. And try a 496ci, M body, tire frying money pit. You zeroed in on something and went off on a tangent about SB builds. Which has nothing to do with anything I posted. Thanks for your recommendations, AJ.

 

[Duke5A]

There are engine mounts that will locate a 383 into an M body with little issue. Yes, I’d like to run headers if possible, which is why my OP said “probably”. I’ve already decided on boring it to 4.28 and getting my hands on a nice 440 source stroker kit. I’ve been up all night thinking about this.
If I wanted a 360, I’d have gotten a 360. Oh, I also have a college degree in applied science of welding technologies, work in a fabrication shop. Thanks for the advice, AJ.
Edit, if I’m putting money and time into pulling and engine and buying a stroker kit, I’m not waste time on a 318. How many guys on here went through more than one engine build before they went big block? Quite a few. No sense in wasting time, just build for what I want.

Now you're talking! A 500"+ build will get that barge moving!

You are going to have issues finding headers if you want to keep the factory power steering box. I gave up and had a set made from 304 SS.

A BB 727 will fit without any modifications and will even reuse the factory transmission cross member.

I'm going to seriously recommend a roller cam. Lots of flat tappet units have been going flat lately. When that happens the motor gets pulled and completely dissembled. You mentioned you want something mild. I'm using a 230@.050" roller and it's a torque monster. Don't have to spin the motor past 5500 and I'm running a 3.54 gear. It'll still spin 285 tires on a 40 MPH role.

You're good with fabrication? You're going to need to tie the frame off if it hasn't been done already. No need to get crazy if you don't want. 2x2" box tube connecting the front and rear rails is sufficient. No need to go through the floor either.

My biggest regret is using OOBE Edelbrock heads. They don't flow near enough for the displacement under them. Trick Flow makes some really nice pieces. If you do need to stay budget focused though, the Edelbrocks do in fact work.

I've got about $15k into mine to give you a sense of budget.

...and you probably already know this...that 8.25" is not going to survive.

 

[Camtron]

Now you're talking! A 500"+ build will get that barge moving!

You are going to have issues finding headers if you want to keep the factory power steering box. I gave up and had a set made from 304 SS.

A BB 727 will fit without any modifications and will even reuse the factory transmission cross member.

I'm going to seriously recommend a roller cam. Lots of flat tappet units have been going flat lately. When that happens the motor gets pulled and completely dissembled. You mentioned you want something mild. I'm using a 230@.050" roller and it's a torque monster. Don't have to spin the motor past 5500 and I'm running a 3.54 gear. It'll still spin 285 tires on a 40 MPH role.

You're good with fabrication? You're going to need to tie the frame off if it hasn't been done already. No need to get crazy if you don't want. 2x2" box tube connecting the front and rear rails is sufficient. No need to go through the floor either.

My biggest regret is using OOBE Edelbrock heads. They don't flow near enough for the displacement under them. Trick Flow makes some really nice pieces. If you do need to stay budget focused though, the Edelbrocks do in fact work.

I've got about $15k into mine to give you a sense of budget.

...and you probably already know this...that 8.25" is not going to survive.

Lol yea, the 8.25” will eventually get upgraded too. But I figure it will hold up temporarily; it’s got a fresh rebuild/parts lol. Frame ties are on the list (I can pull personal projects in and out of the shop during the weekends) as well as Trick Flow heads. Have seen too many off putting post/remarks about Edelbrock heads flow and overall quality lacking in the machining/measurements.
What cam are you running? I’m only scratching the surface on putting a build sheet/parts list together and most of the rollers I’ve found are a higher duration in comparison to what you’re running.

 

[Aspen500]

Fairly pricey BUT, the Schumacher headers fit perfectly with zero modifications to anything with an RB, and would fit even easier on a B. Other than having the steering shaft out of the way, the drivers side slips in from underneath and pass side drops in from above. I've got them on my Aspen (440 stroked to 500" with a 440Source kit) with P.S. and never had any buyers remorse. Excellent quality also. It was 10 years ago so the price was a bit less than now but, the headers w/ceramic coating , gaskets, stud/nut kit, ball socket collector kit and the short connecting pipes came to about $850 to the door.
B/RB Tri-Y Headers

 

[Duke5A]

What cam are you running? I’m only scratching the surface on putting a build sheet/parts list together and most of the rollers I’ve found are a higher duration in comparison to what you’re running.

Comp Cams XR280HR
Xtreme Energy 230/236 Hydraulic Roller Cam (3 Bolt) for Chrysler 383-440

Fairly pricey BUT, the Schumacher headers fit perfectly with zero modifications to anything with an RB, and would fit even easier on a B. Other than having the steering shaft out of the way, the drivers side slips in from underneath and pass side drops in from above. I've got them on my Aspen (440 stroked to 500" with a 440Source kit) with P.S. and never had any buyers remorse. Excellent quality also. It was 10 years ago so the price was a bit less than now but, the headers w/ceramic coating , gaskets, stud/nut kit, ball socket collector kit and the short connecting pipes came to about $850 to the door.
B/RB Tri-Y Headers

I gave those a lot of thought, but decided against them. The primary tubes are only 1 5/8" and the collectors are only 2.5". Then again, if it's all that fits, what do you do? Only other option I found was custom built. Wasn't cheap.

 

[Oldiron440]

It's a 52 year old block, and you want to keep the stock bore? Well I hope you have a dial-bore gauge,know how to set it up, and how to read it.
If you go to aluminum heads, they like lots of compression, and the best way to get it is with new hi-compression pistons. If you can afford the heads, you should really think about it.
And you want to install this in a M, for which AFAIK,there is no K-member made, and you cannot install it onto a stock 318 K. And you want to run headers on top of that, for which there is also no guaranteed fit.

Hang on; this is messed up.
Back up the bus.
I hi-torque REBUILT 360 will cover all your bases, while being a drop-in onto a 318 K-member. You can even keep the A/C, which in Chicago, could come in pretty handy.
You can bore a 360 out to 4.04 and get a 367 which is only 16 cubes (just 4%) behind the 383. The 383 is a big-bore, short stroke, hi-reving animal; whereas the 360 is a moderate-bore long stroke engine, much better suited to motivating a 3.23 equipped Mopar tank, I mean FMJ.
And the 360 falls together at over 10/1 Scr with aluminum heads, could be as high as 11/1 depending on the components chosen. You can make 440 torque with that 11/1
IMHO, unless you are a seasoned fabricator, I would forget about the 383 for this application.

If nothing else, you can drop a stroker crank into your 318, and make a 100% applicable to your combo, 388 cuber at 3.93bore, and with a 4" stroke, and it will make monster low-rpm torque, to push that 4000 pound behemoth around, pretty good, with the 3.23s. Plus; with the new 795 cc of swept, you are gonna have trouble keeping the cylinder pressure low enough, instead pulling all the tricks you can imagine, to bring it up. Aluminum, small-valve, big-chamber, heads, will help. With a 4" arm in there, you can run a lotta cam, before the low-rpm goes soft.
Or, if you wanted to, for your application, I could imagine running the factory 318 heads, because with 3.23s yur never gonna need to spin it really fast, because you are not looking for a race-car engine. I bet you could even leave the factory 2.45 gears in there, with upgraded guts in the 998/999, and just make sure you have a SG in the diff. This is getting cheaper/easier, by the second.
Geewhiz, I shouldda done that to the FA I inherited when Dad died, instead of giving it away.

With 3.23s, 30 mph; in 2.74 first gear is 3300 @zeroslip, 40 is 4400; and 50 is 5500; at WOT these could be 8 to 10 % higher.
With 2.45s,lol, 65 is 5400@zeroslip..... still in first gear; perhaps 5800 at WOT.

But I'll venture to say in day to day driving, you might shift at 3000, so this is 26mph into second and 47mph into third with the 3.23s, finishing at 65=2600/zeroslip. That 4" arm with hi-compression, is gonna make this a pleasure.

Plus saying your M has a 388, just sounds sooooooo cool.
Like 396 Chevelle; 402 wouldda never cut it.
Like 260 Falcon
Like the wife has 38s
Or how about 6.4 liters. (388=6.358liters), Just toss that out at the car show, say it with me; " Hyup; I installed a 6.4 in there, and with the 3.23s, at 65mph,she only uses about 10 to 12 liters per 100km; and I'm still tuning on that."
The 383 won't touch that.

Wow I wonder how many times I've seen this post on different forums from AJ.?
Has nothing to do with a 383 only the one engine combination he has put together and thinks everyone else needs even though it's not what there building.
I didn't even jump in only because I don't build B motors only 440s.
The only thing I would say to use if you can are TF 240 heads and the 4.25" lightweight crank from 440 source. The TF heads are quality parts as is the crank plus it will free up some power loss.
Good luck and have fun!

 

[Remow2112]

I have posted this a couple times on here and on other boards.

I have a 77 Volare I put a 400 bb in.

For the record I went from. 452 heads to the 84 cc edlebrock head and dropped almost a second in 1/4. 13.2 to 12.4, stock Pistons that are .120 in the hole.

This will work.for m body including headers.
You will need to get a smaller power booster to keep power brakes and unclear if.you can use stock power steering box with headers. I never messed with it.




Here is my write up on it and I am always happy to answer questions.


Here is the deal. I did this for a mostly drag race car.
1. I have manual steering (Don't know if PS will clear.)
2. Used factory late model BB spool motor mounts.
3. The tranny mount (not the cross member) needs a little modifications.
4. Hedman Hedders 78030 work great in a Volare.
5. I put in a cheap 26" aluminum radiator with the upper and lower ports matching a BB.
6. Milodon 30931 oil pan
7. I am using manual brakes. You can stick with PB but you will need to find a different power booster that will clear the valve cover. An A-body one might work.

Details:
Using the stock motor mounts will put the engine about a 1/2 further forward then using the Schumacher conversion mounts and a little taller. What I did was got a set of beat BB motor mounts and drilled some 1/4" holes through the rubber on the engine side of each mount. (They sit just a little wide and you need some extra give. I also trimmed the extra rubber and metal off the front and back of the motor mounts making them flush to the spool insert front and back. If you don't do that when you get it in the K frame mounts it tweaks the engine so it sits crooked in the engine bay. You will need to buy a bunch of flat washer and cut slots out of the bottom. When you trim the spool ends it leaves a gap on the K-frame mount and you have to fill the gap before you tighten down or you will never get them tight. I did that with cheap washers.

The only mod I did on my K frame was on the passenger side at the front of the motor mount. There is a long thin v fin towards the front of the car. I took a grinder and cut it off because the engine block hits it.


The tranny mount has 2 slots. You need to cut them open on the end that goes to the front of the car. You will then be able to have enough adjustment to get it connected to the 727 tranny. If you weld you can extend the slots.

I used the headers listed above. There are 2 styles of BB headers (that I have seen) this version will not work, Hooker Headers 5209HKR. It has the 5 tube cross over and the 7 sticks out. The 7 will not clearing the steering.

You cannot use a small starter or modern starter. It will hit the header tube. They sell expensive indexable style starters that will work. I just bought a old style 440 starter (It has a longer motor and a little more torque) For those that will ask. I did try banging some clearance in a headers tube to fit the small style starter. I got the tube to half the original diameter and gave up. Not worth it to loose that much flow in 1 tube. I have not had an issue with heat saturation yet.

For a drive shaft I went and found one out of a 70 station wagon and had it shortened. I would not recommend using the small diameter drive shaft. I have a mild 400 and it feels radically different launch then my 375hp 360.

I also chose to cut part of the fender well out on the passenger side to make it easier to get to the #6 spark plug. All the rest are easy. If you don't want to go that route you can drill a 1.5" hole in front of the #6 and get to it that way. The plug wire will still be a pain.

Oil pans: I started with a 699 (this is a number stamped in to the bottom of the pan ... Follow this link for an oil pan breakdown: Oil Pans) But the one I had did not have any baffles. After talking to a friend that has been racing BB Mopar for 20 years I switched to the Milodon listed above. He said that with a good launch and no baffles ( i am not exactly clear on what he considers a good launch His cars runs in the mid 10's.) you will starve the bottom bearings. He then warned me that it could still be done with a baffled stock oil pan so I chickened out and ponied up some cash. Back to oil pan options.

Mopar pans 699, 971, and 187 should fit fine. 971 is best just due to the extra room from the front of the pan to where the sump starts and you can still buy one from Mopar 5007807.
These are all 5 quart pans and if you are just street driving. I would just find a used stock pan and go for it. Most generic aftermarket oil pans are elongated 187 pans. Using a 187 or 699 might require a little trimming on the lip on the back of the k frame where the sump sits.

Do not try to put the engine and tranny in together. The engine hits the firewall and prevents the oil pans from clearing the k frame. I tried!

I also chained down the driver side of the engine since I beat up on the motor mounts quite a bit.

There is no reason that this could not be done with a 440 but the extra 1/2" a side is going to make the passenger side even tighter fit.

If you have your act together there is not reason that you couldn't put a BB in your F or a normal weekend. But they will be long days.

Dan...

 

[Oldiron440]

I few things that I dont agree with.
1. Motor should sit square between the frame rails.
That is the center line of the crankshaft is offset by the same amount as the tailshaft of the transmission.
2. Use the stock location of the transmission mount to locate the for and aft position of the engine. There is no need to move the motor forward.
3. Height of the motor sould be 4 to 6° up crank center line of the crankshaft. But ultimately you want the fan in the middle of the fan shroud so adjust cordingly.

 

[XfbodyX]

There is no need to move the motor forward.

Yes there is a benefit, at least for me there was, easier booster and valve cover relationship. My stock 440 Magnum Valve Cover came off easy and the motor seemed to fit the K better. (Tried both ways). Also off the shelf B body headers work with power steering.

But you dont have PB or PS right? That would be sweet.

Really, I even had ac, I bet the car still does and since it was a stock 440 mag/3.23 car it ran and drove as smooth as anything factory and I had put over 30k trouble free miles on it.

I forget what pan I used, dont recall the number, but I do know it was beat up a bit. I gots pics, I will look.

Oddly, it felt no heavier then a 360 car.

I just wondered about that inch forward, on a street car no biggie, I wonder how different a track car would scale on a already nose heavy car?

So many ways to skin this cat.

 

[Camtron]

Plan to swap out the factory PS at some point during the build, go for a Borgeson unit likely. I figure with the B block, I should get a hair more clearance than you RB guys for accessories; like my brake booster lol
Appreciate the pointers on the cam, headers and heads.
I had actually bookmarked Dans post on a different forum. Very well written and informative and I greatly appreciate him taking the time to respond here.
I was going to pick up Schumacher engine mounts. From what I’ve read, they should locate the engine pretty close to the SB factory position get everything lined up without shifting anything forward or backwards too much. Maybe notching the transmission mount a little to get the bolts in nice and clean: good to know factory spool mounts can be made to work also though.
I was also planning for a Milodon oil pan. I believe they have one that will clear the K-Member and steering linkage without issue...pretty sure I read that somewhere.
I will heed your guys words as I progress things over the years...that’s right years lol like I said in my OP, I this is going to be a long term project. I ain’t rich or anything, lol I anticipate this will take me 10-15 years to “complete”; whatever that means.
I got lucky on the 383. It seemingly had real low miles on it when it got parked/pulled. It cleaned up to factory specs on the bore, crank, rods, ect... (why I mentioned a relatively stock build in my OP)
The guy I got it from decided to go for a 440 build so, he had three 383 available. Two long blocks (one with a 727 mated that he won’t separate) that need magnaflux, cleaning, likely machining and, he had the already magnafluxed and cleaned up short block ready for a build. I picked up the short block for $350.
I’m excited lol. Thanks again guys.

 

[Oldiron440]

I used Ebody headers on my Volare but the steering shaft was a problem, a 383 would not have this problem.

 

[Aspen500]

Mine is positioned using the stock trans mount and yes, it is tight at the firewall but then I don't have power brakes. There's JUST enough room to get the bell housing bolts out using a wrench. To move the engine forward an inch you'd have to notch the k-frame or is there a pan that clears(?) As it is, the sump of my stock replacement Milodon pan is less than 1/4" from the rear of the k-frame. It clears the steering just fine. It can be removed with the engine bolted in place. Only the steering center link needs to come out to get the pan out.

Tightest area is the rear of the right valve cover (MP cast aluminum). I've got the A/C recirc duct "notched" so the motor mount doesn't need loosened and the right side of the engine jacked up to get at the rear lower vc bolt (I've got studs and nuts, not bolts but that's picking nits, lol). Biggest hassle to getting the right cover off is the A/C needs discharged and the lines unhooked at the expansion valve so, really hoping the rockers never need adjusting it won't need to come off again for a long time!

For those that never heard the boring story, in 1989 I was all set to swap the S6 for a 360 and then a buddy of mine said "if you're going to go through all that work, why not put in a 440 right away?" "That's the dumbest thing I've ever........................Hmmmmmmmmm". Then everyone else said it couldn't be done, it'll never fit, the car won't be able to turn a corner, blah, blah, blah. Well, had to prove them all wrong so later in '89, in went the 440, 727 and 8 3/4". Ha, showed them!

 

[XfbodyX]

Cam, have you read this? Maybe not if you dont go to the good section of this site.

Although a 440 BB is BB.

440 In an F Article

 

[Duke5A]

A few things to add:

1. Use the Schumacher mounts. They put the motor exactly where it needs to be. Don't reinvent the wheel.
2. The bell housing bolts can be gotten to pretty easy. All you need to do is take the seem that protrudes into the tunnel where the firewall meets the floor pan, slit it in the center and off to the sides, and fold it forward with rubber mallet until it's flush with the firewall. This will give you enough clearance to reach all the bolts from the bottom by dropping the trans tail down and using a three foot extension with a flex socket.
3. The Milodon Road Race pan fits with a little clearance work to the K. See photos:

 

[Camtron]

Question:
Worth it to reuse factory radiator and pick up a water pump with a right hand lower hose? Or, should I just plan on getting a new radiator to use with a water pump with a left hand lower hose? Any PS clearance issues moving the lower hose to the left side?
What did you do, would you do it differently knowing what you know now?

Ps. I do not plan on keeping A/C in the car.