87 Fifth Throttle/Linkage/Fuel adjustment

[Justwondering]

I'm sitting here waiting for the propane guy to deliver product.
I just was outside and decided to start the 87 Fifth Avenue since I didn't run it for the past 48 hours.

Gas pedal was sitting high, one push, it stays on the floor and barely recovers.
Won't start.
Obviously not getting gas.

I pull the air filter off and decide today is the day to check the choke thermostat. I bought a new one couple of months ago.

I bought the wrong choke thermostat. Old one has no wire, new one has a wire. I think it needs to be someone elses. Can't return it.

But, I did remove the old thermostat and it seems to be flexing quite nicely. The problem appears to be the bug carcasses in the curved bowl it sits in. Cleaned out the filth. Disgusting.

Put everything back and it seems like it flexes correctly.

So I check the springs on the other side thinking that one is broken or not connected.
Everything is fine.

But I notice all the rods, brackets, swivels, have lots of surface rust. Pushing the pedal not much moves.

I use my hand and move the rods back and forth, remove the springs and reattach. Move the rods. Move the cables.. until it seems like things are moving more freely.

Sure enough, the pedal now responds correctly.

Tell me what I do now. I know if I leave it, the rust will return. I don't really know what was stuck/sticking. I just know its working better now.

Do I take things off and sand the rust off, scrape it off, chemically remove it?

How do I make sure the rust or gunk doesn't inhibit it in the future?

Gotta go-- the propane guy is here. I'll post my pictures later today.

 

[rcmaniac791]

On my '52 Ford flathead, all of the carb linkages were seized up from sitting 30 years. I started soaking them in some PB Blaster, and now they move fairly well.

 

[BudW]

Your old choke thermostat has had its wire broken off (from seeing pictures from earlier). The replacement should be the correct one, as long as rod looks like is bent the same (the other two versions are bent way different (4 bbl or /6).

I suspect something happened to the kickdown linkage during the starter replacement.
When you take pictures, can you be sure to take some of the linkage at left rear corner of engine looking downward? Having a second hand with a flashlight might be helpful.

Now I re-read what you said, and it sounds like whatever re-seated itself. When you go out, make sure the kickdown fuction works. if it doesn't, don't drive it very far until it gets fixed.

The linkage was designed to be operated dry. WD40 (and other products) works on preventing rust. The best cure is to drive car every so often.

 

[Justwondering]

BudW --
Where does the wire connect?

The reason I thought it was the wrong one is 1) the wire and 2) the new unit doesn't bottom out in the receiver 'bowl'. The black housing for the wire had a rivet at the bottom that hits the bottom of the 'well'.

Before I started...

What I purchased ... note the rivet at the bottom of the spiral -- this hits the 'well' and doesn't let the part sit like the original.

I had just removed the bolt from the left side. And yes, I need to get the air compressor out again and blow the filth off the engine block. Sigh.

Dead bug carcasses and leaves and filth ... I swear I didn't know there were so many places for gunk to be deposited.

'Well' is cleaned. You can see the ridge at the bottom of the well that the rivet hits (new unit).

I put the old choke thermostat back in. I'll need more help to know where it plugs in. I could use the new one if its okay to put a spacer under the bolt and not have it sit all the way at the bottom of the well.

Push and pull on all the cables, rods, and springs on the other side.

Is it okay to spray dry lubricant on these parts?

 

[BudW]

To test choke thermostat function/operation is to take both to sink and dunk in cold water. Then measure distance of roc to base (on each – which may or might not be the same number – so record both measurements.

Then place each thermostat under hot water. Measure again.

Deduct the high/low measurements on each thermostat. Example might be 3/8” movement on old and ¾” on new (or whatever it might be). If both move about the same distance, then old one is still good.
Most likely the old one won’t move much.

The reason for that is the material the spring is made of. It is a bi-metallic spring so the spring is two different kinds of metal, each one expands/contracts at different rates. After doing so for thousands of times and through the years, rust or other reasons cause the bi-metallic spring to not move much.

It has been my experience, on carbureted vehicles that have a hard to start cold condition, and choke thermostat is twenty years or older, that a new choke thermostat fixes or if not fixes it, then makes a huge improvement on cold start conditions.

Justwondering, I mentioned to you some time back that your thermostat heater wire was broken off and a new thermostat should improve your cold start ability.

The white circle is the missing wire. The red arrow is where the wire attaches to.

 

[Justwondering]

BudW --
You probably did mention the heater wire, but I don't think I realized what you meant. I was thinking 'in cabin' heater and not something to do with the engine.

I should have asked more questions. Shame on me. I usually follow up with more questions when I'm not sure.

I'll put the new choke thermostat in tomorrow morning. I was going to wait overnight before I tried starting it again so I could be sure I got a true feel for whether its fixed or still has a problem.

Thanks for patiently explaining the obvious to me... again.

 

[Justwondering]

The propane did get delivered. We stay warm for the upcoming 2 day cold spell. Ditto for the greenhouse plants.

 

[BudW]

You can use pretty much what you want on the linkage. Normal usage should keep any rust worn away (dry). Avoiding using something that attracts dirt (like grease) for dirt will cause wear and jams/sticks. Something like WD40 or the like to help prevent rust, is all you need.

If linkage still feels like is binding, then I suspect the problem is linkage down by the transmission/starter area.


I have a few choke thermostats at home (7 new (all 4-bbls), 3 used, including one from my Holley 2-bbl) – and am kinda surprised your new one didn’t fit.
Can you take a close up picture of bottom side of it, please?
I want to see that rivet, or whatever it might be, causing problems.

 

[Justwondering]

Here is the image from Rockauto:

Here is what the original looks like:

I'll do the actual ones tomorrow when I pull the air cleaner again.

 

[kkritsilas]

just so everybody knows, WD40 is NOT a lubricant. People often do use it that way, I know, but the dame itself states what it is (Water Displacement Fromula 50). It is designed to displace water/moisture, not lubricate. it does have some light oils in it, but if real lubridcant is needed, use something else.

 

[Justwondering]

Here's my comparison of parts

I did install the new one and it sits about 1/4 inch too high. About the height of the box wrench

It did start and run and the choke did shut. I haven't driven it yet. Maybe this weekend. Have to get everything ready for two cold nights this week.

 

[80mirada]

WD40 was originally used to prevent corrosion on early ballistic missiles. For linkage I use Remington Dry Lube spray, it is slick and won't attract dirt

 

[7T8 Custom]

You could mark and notch the ridge in your manifold where the rivet is interfering with it seating completely with a file or die grinder.

 

[volare 77]

I would just get the correct one for it.. Mopar number on the rock auto listing for a holley 318 is 4095339. I don`t have a mopar parts book to verify. There are some listed on ebay. NOS HOLLEY Choke Thermostat CHRYSLER DODGE PLYMOUTH HOLLEY 2 BARREL FITS 4095339 | eBay

 

[Justwondering]

I'm hoping someone has an 'extra' in the garage that I can trade this one for.

As Darth Car reminded me, the climate here in Texas doesn't have that many really cold days that a choke would be imperative. For now, I'll just make sure its a warmer day when I drive it.

It still needs a front-end alignment, so I have 2 excuses to keep it home right now.

 

[BudW]

That one would work – but I wouldn’t spend $60 for it.

I’ve not seen that ridge in the thermostat cavity like that before.
Grinding the cast iron will work - but that will be a really not fun job to do.

The choke thermostat rod length is different between the Carter BBD vs. Holley2280/6280 (they look the same, but sitting side by side shows they are different) – so I removed the one from my ’86 5th when I pitched my 6280 and replaced with a ’77 BBD.

I told Justwondering that once I find my old thermostat, I will rebuild it (install a new bi-metallic spring) and will ship to her.

NOW, I just need to find my old one . . .

BudW

 

[Dr Lebaron]

just so everybody knows, WD40 is NOT a lubricant. People often do use it that way, I know, but the dame itself states what it is (Water Displacement Fromula 50). It is designed to displace water/moisture, not lubricate. it does have some light oils in it, but if real lubridcant is needed, use something else.

Then there's Really Good Shit

 

[Justwondering]

Bud ....(laughing)... I wasn't going to rat you out that you have a supermarket supply of parts in your garage. . .. just kidding.

 

[BudW]

. . . you have a supermarket supply of parts in your garage . . .

Well I do have.

The good news is I have most of it inventoried – and in process of selling off a lot that I won’t use (at FABO, FBBO and soon FEBO).
My Excel spreadsheet has 18 different tabs and is at 83.2k file size.

Been tired of knowing I have something but can’t find it – so the last year I’ve been working on organization – and still have a ways to go.

I have two external garages.
A big cinderblock two car garage (with a storm cellar made underneath it) which I have my woodworking equipment and carburetors in (among about 100 unfinished projects all piled by the door) (and no cars) and a wood frame 1 car garage with ugly red shingles on its side which is full of car parts (7 engines, 5 transmissions, 6+ differentials, …) Christmas storage (and so on) – also with about 100 unfinished projects piled up at the door (and no cars).

My old Holley 6280 is in the two car garage. It is one of the few that hasn’t been boxed up yet

The old choke thermostat is on this snippet I took from my files.

The last entry is the one I'm looking for.
The Yellow ? means just that. I know I have it – but where. I think I know but hadn’t gotten there yet.

 

[Justwondering]

I'm amazed you have it that organized... unlike me, I have that same 100 projects in a box here and there and where did I see that last?

I'm working on it, but it is very slow going.