Ignition timing...?? I can't believe this thing runs at all

ChryslerCruiser

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Last night I decided to check the plugs on my new imperial. The previous owner had removed the lean burn system as well as the fuel injection, so it is now Holley and MoPar Performance Electronic Ignition equipped. . . Car runs fine when warmed up.... OR I have no idea what a good running car really behaves like. That being said I have not driven other than around the yard, to get it out of the way of other activities...

The plugs were gapped at .048, I reset them to .035 as suggested in the Electronic Ignition conversion pamphlet. Car starts much better now.. so we are making progress.

On to the point of checking what the engine timing is supposed to be... MP EI pamphlet says to start with 5* BTDC, and check that you have 36* total @ 200RPM => I can not find the timing mark when the engine is running... so I shut it off, and brought the rotor just up to the point of pointing at # 1 (about half way between ) cylinders # 2 and # 1 , and the timing mark is about 20* PAST TDC, and the plug has not even fired yet...?

Is this possible? (way late ignition timing, Or a balancer that has slipped out of place)

Your perspective is welcome. I have resisted the urge to just adjust the distributor without some experience saying that such is possible and the Previous owner may have just thrown the distributor in, and never timed it? Pictures to follow.
 

Oldiron440

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It is very common for a damper to spin on the center.
You must verify top dead center of #1 on the damper.
Replace it if it has spun.
 

Aspen500

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As mentioned, verify the mark is actually TDC (or not). It almost has to be slipped. You'd have a hard time even starting the car at 20* ATDC and if you could, it would be very lazy with no power at all. Chances are, it'd never even idle like that. Another thing is, unless someone had the distributor drive gear out and put it back in a tooth off, the distributor would be turned to an odd position to get 20* ATDC, like the vacuum advance would be pointing towards the firewall.

You can use something like a thin screwdriver to find TDC. Be careful it doesn't get jammed though. Turn the engine until the screwdriver stops moving and starts going back down then come back to where it stopped moving. It's not 100% accurate like an actual piston stop but should be accurate enough to give you an idea if the balancer is off or not.
 

ChryslerCruiser

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In the process of making a piston stop... I am all ready planning on getting a new crankshaft balancer... but the piston stop construction will entertain me for a little while.
 

ChryslerCruiser

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Not so sure there is an issue with the harmonic balancer... Starting to think the issue is with the dude reading the timing light (me).. and a coating of rust on the balancer. The timing is set at 12* maybe 13* before TDC... So the previous fella installed the Performance distributor and set the plug gap exactly as the emissions tag says..
My piston stop is almost complete. I will give it a go, and confirm the balancer is accurate... then check the total advance..and button it all back up tomorrow I hope.
 

SixBanger

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If there is a difference between TDC mark on balancer after checking with piston stop. You could adjust the timingmark scale a couple degree on the engine to set it back to tdc.
 

ChryslerCruiser

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Ok now I am confused... the timing "tab" on the engine is actually a range +10 to 10* after TDC.. That is no problem..

And the balancer has up to 40* BTDC marked.. BUT if I was to explore and adjust in the 30-40* range, I would need to remove the water pump to see such adjustments.

So how do I go about checking total timing If I can not see the balancer timing marks when all of the mechanical and Vacuum advance are in?
 

AJ/FormS

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Dial-back timing lite.
Or you can do what I used to do;
Find true TDC, than slide under the car and index the balancer there.
Later I got smarter and put the factory index mark on the bottom and used a different cylinder TDC. Some balancers still have to be calibrated or timing-taped.
One time, on a van, I drilled a big hole in the bellhouse and marked the convertor, and ring-gear.
Another time, I marked the bellhouse to TC alignment after removing the inspection plate.
But the dial back lite eventually became a must-have.
 
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ChryslerCruiser

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OK I will plan on investing in one.. Once I have verified that the balancer is still in good shape.

Open to any recommendations as to which dial back timing light to get or stay away from?
 

Aspen500

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are describing but, something sounds odd to me. Can you get a photo of the timing marks and balancer? It's when you say the water pump is in the way of the marks that is confusing me.
 

ChryslerCruiser

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I just put the smog pump back on... but I do have a photo of the balancer/timing marks. Need to figure out how to post them here. I've done it in the past, but was not successful last night.
 

BudW

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I have seen a lot of different balancers. Many balancers can look the same but i've seen some with only 1 line marked on it and others with 4 lines marked (one every 90’) and variations of above. I’ve also seen some the timing mark was barely cut and paint basically covered it up.
When Chrysler started to paint their engines black – it got worse trying to find the mark.

On my own engines, with not well marked balancers, I have taken a piece of cardboard with a small square cutout, then painted white (rattle can) onto a "clean" balancer for about 1” before and after the mark or thereabouts (2-3" total).
Then after TDC (Top Dead Center) has been positively identified (using piston stop or other method), take a straight edge and black sharpie marker and mark it.
The black on white shows up well with a timing light.

Other balancers that are line is well machined, this isn’t much of a problem. The balancer on my ’77 wagon the mark is barely present (it wont even catch a fingernail), and I had to paint it as mentioned above.


On a different note, it is not uncommon for the outer ring to slip from its position vs. the inner ring – which does affect the timing mark position.

If you check for TDC and the timing mark doesn’t line up with crank pointer – then the two balancer rings has slipped position, and balancer needs to be replaced (before the ring comes off the balancer).

My timing light has a up/down button as well as readout, to dial in a specific timing advance number. I can dial in say 12' advance - then the timing mark on balancer will be at 0’. Easier to set timing at the line, then trying to guess at the exact number, when that number is not at a fixed location.
Those dialable timing lights (any brand) is well worth the money over a basic timing light.
BudW
 

XfbodyX

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What year and what motor.

Here is a common balancer like Bud mentioned. I myself think these are the most friendly.

Some may not agree but most anything can be a piston stop, your just determining when it stops going up and starts going down. If there is alot of dwell just split the difference and your at tdc.

DSC00099.JPG


DSC00100.JPG


DSC00101.JPG
 

Oldiron440

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I like how that one is marked, it doesn't get much better than that.
 

BudW

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The top two balancer pictures are one of the nice ones. Thank you XfbodyX for the pics!
I have seen some the only mark is like the bottom picture. Some (which I suspect might be the case) with has a full cut mark for Cylinder 1/6, and a parcial cut for the other 3 positions. Some, the mark is not cut but more like scribed on - barley. And again, variations.
Not a lot of factory balancers were marked like the second picture is.
 
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