Mopar Ignition Boxes and General Ignition Questions

[kkritsilas]

Hi,

I am putting together the parts to convert over from the ESA/Lean Burn ignition system to the older, mechanical/vacuum advance style ignition. I have one old style electronic distributor, which I may end up rebuilding, or just go with a new A-1 Cardone equivalent, and not have to rebuild anything. The part that I don't know much about is the ignition boxes (some people call ECUs) that Mopar used. I know they came in different colours, which I think are significant, and the chrome box from Mopar Performance.

1. Is there a preferred ignition box? This would be for a street driven car, probably never go over 6000 RPM. Is there any advantage to the Mopar Performance for a street driven car (i.e. is it better at all rpm, or is it basically better after 4-5-6,000 rpm)? The local wreckers have a number of donor vehicles with the Mopar boxes, but are they worth getting, or would I be getting a part that should be replaced anyway?

2. Is a third party ignition box preferred? By this I mean an MSD 6 family, MSD Streetfire, or a Pertronix Ignitor (if so, which Ignitor module, I, II, or III)?

As for the distributor that I have, the shaft (trying to wiggle it from the slotted end) has no real side to side play, but does have some vertical play. Is this important, and if so, do I just add washers between the plastic collar on the shaft and the end of the distributor body, or do I need to try and find the official Mopar upgrade kit for the plastic collar (the one that has the added perpendicular collar)?

Kostas

 

[Jack Meoff]

I'm sure you'll get more expert opinions than mine
But I do know to stay away from the knock off ECU's.
The cheapo's are junk....get a Mopar orange box. As far as I recall that's all you'd need unless you're running a performance setup.

 

[NoCar340]

Yep, I concur. The MP orange box is the one you want. Blue, black, and most chrome are just aftermarket equivalents to stock, though MP has their chrome unit, which would be clearly marked with a Mopar number. The gold full-race box is easily distinguished by its unique heatsink (no painting that sucker for a sleeper application) and has absolutely no business on a street car. It will die in very short order from overheating.

 

[jasperjacko]

I run the orange box on Modoba.

 

[brotherGood]

I had the blue one on my car since I got the car. We replaced it when changing engines with just an AutoZone one...more of a "try this" thing..didn't fix the issue at hand..but it really improved the spark. I thought the orange box out now was junk?

 

[NoCar340]

They've had issues now and again. I remember about 10-12 years ago, they were failing and some were even buzzing mysteriously. I thought they'd gotten over that problem, though, kind of like all the early crate 360 Commandos blowing up. MP's had some dazzling screw-ups over the years. It was pretty obvious when the last of the old-crew Direct Connection guys left the Mopar Performance building for good.

 

[Jack Meoff]

I was emailing with Ehrenberg a while back and he told me to go with the Mopar orange so I'm thinking they've resolved any issues.

 

[BHA43]

Go to Mancini Racing or equivalent & get there kit, comes with everything you need including wiring & orange is good.

 

[My imp]

I plan on using the orange module, & keeping my stock one in my road bag just in case. My question is; has anyone put the lightweight advance springs in the distributor that come with the orange module?

 

[kkritsilas]

I haven't even started working on the distributor change over, as the snow is still coming down outside, and I don't have a garage to work in.

I did read the article (I believe it was in a recent Mopar Action) that said that the distributor springs should be one heavy (factory original, and one light (from a spring kit, or wherever you can get one). Speeds up the mechanical advance curve, but not so much that you get pinging issues. I think Ehrenberg wrote the article.

There is a guy here in Alberta that has two SB distributors with mechanical/vacuum advances that he is willing to sell me. He also has two BLUE Mopar (as in Chrysler factory) boxes. Are these OK to use in a street car, essentially stock, aside from using mechanical/vacuum advance?

Kostas

 

[slant6billy]

I used a gold box for a few starts and runs, but a few guys on here strongly caution me to get it out of the car. The gold get too hot beyond 1/4 mile spurts. I have a mopar chrome on now. My budy has a mopar chrome on his coupe and one on his wife's F wagon. I have a few MP orange from years ago. I might just try the orange again to make note of the difference. Someone might know the answer to the question here. Does the orange box have better spark at lower RPM? The Chrome box has good spark to 8000 RPM or so advertized. My thought is this: The box has a window of optimum spark. I would think the orange box activates quicker at lower RPM, where the chrome and beyond might delay spark. Again, I don't have data to support my theory. The chrome box may just have a greater window of a spark. I appreciate the most bang for the buck right off 0 RPMs (that is right out the gate). I've seen blue boxes and may have tossed a few out years ago. Are they just factory ho hum boxes or are they something special? My budy once told me his 74 charger had a reset button? Did or was a reset button on any ignition box of any mopar? Never saw one?

 

[Jack Meoff]

Never seen a reset button on one.....
Every blue box I've encountered was a knockoff and usually garbage.
I bought one when I was in a pinch for the Volare.
It's working but I fully expect it to fail at some point.
Simply a matter of cheap components.
I have no idea what the RPM ranges are on specific boxes
But I do know that for a straight up street driven car orange is the way to go.
If they've had issues in the past I'm guessing they were dealt with
Ehrenberg sells them and he's not the type of guy to sell junk.
If I have any issues with the orange I'll let you know.
I'm ordering a couple before car season starts up here.

 

[ramenth]

My budy once told me his 74 charger had a reset button? Did or was a reset button on any ignition box of any mopar? Never saw one?

Your buddy's reset button wasn't on the ECU, it was wired inline. It was the override button for the seatbelt interlock. The Feds mandated for '74 that cars wouldn't run unless the seatbelt was fastened. It was such a disaster that '75 saw the end of the system.

Somewhere around here I've got the entire set up off my '74 Barracuda. It's a novelty on a lot of levels.

 

[slant6billy]

That darn Seatbelt switch. I recently either read about that stupid thing or it was mentioned somewhere else. Hard to believe it was just a faulty design. I kind of think it was done on purpose to get folks back into the dealer. Much like the oil light reset on the Fords in the 80s. I think GM did something similar too. Anyone ever use a paper clip to get the engine codes out of an 80s Camaro? Remember that trick? My ex had an 83 and the data port was upside down.... probably done on purpose. She worked part time at a pizza joint. Car was running badly, so one of the delivery drivers thought he could trick the computer. the trick was on him. He should have stuck to pizza delivery. Luckily, camaros wreck as much as 5.0 stangs and I got a replacement pcm and some other parts to get the gm rolling again.

 

[ramenth]

That darn Seatbelt switch. I recently either read about that stupid thing or it was mentioned somewhere else. Hard to believe it was just a faulty design. I kind of think it was done on purpose to get folks back into the dealer.

I don't think it was so much of getting folks back into the dealership as it was the auto industry flipping the bird at the Feds for yet another mandate. Remember, this was before day and age in which the states (and later the Feds) passed the seatbelt laws and wearing seatbelts at the time was voluntary. Essentially, this was the Feds telling people they had to buckle up without passing a law as such.

Coming on the heels of the Fed and insurance company manipulation into the death of the muscle car and a year or two before the smog era kicked in fully, the CAFE standards, etc, I'm thinking this was more along the lines of the auto industry making something fail on purpose in an attempt to make the Feds look bad.

And an attempt to give the consumer back some freedom of choice. Buckle up or not. Isn't it interesting, all these decades later, all the computer systems which power a car down the road, the BCM, PCM, and PATS systems working together to determine rather or not a car can run and the Feds still haven't mandated this back into existence?

Of course, if you're like me, you'd be cussing anyway. I've grown so used to cars over the years in which you might have to fiddle under the hood to get 'em to run or not that I don't fasten the seatbelt until the car is running. If I have to. I'm damned sure not going to fasten my seatbelt to roll a car across a parking lot to bring it in and put it on the lift.

 

[NoCar340]

The main difference between the orange, chrome, and gold ECUs is the dwell time for charging the coil. The longer the dwell time, the hotter the spark. That's all good and fine, except it puts enormous electrical load on both the ECU and the coil, and therefore a ton of heat is generated. A gold ECU on the street will melt itself, blow out the coil, or both in very short order. It should only be used with a high-quality aftermarket high-performance coil; I don't think a stocker would last two quarter-mile passes before it was leaking oil.

Your first order of business should always be a hotter coil. Stick with the usual suspects on this one, although I'm not a fan of Accel until you get into the big Rubbermaid-looking one or better. If you want to use a stock bracket and not have to add another ballast, I'd suggest a Mallory #29217. I bought one just for the cam break-in on my 360, then it goes back on the shelf when I swap in the EFI/DIS setup. Wire it in like stock, no screwing around with additional ballasts or a higher-resistance unit to protect the coil. Once you've got the coil covered, and literally all of the rest of your ignition is tip-top--cap & rotor, HP plug wires, new plugs--then you should start to worry about the ECU. Otherwise, you're just trying to push golf balls through garden hoses. While I'm on that subject, when next you change your cap & rotor, color matters. If it's not tan, red or blue, and the terminals are not either (preferably) copper plated or brass, don't buy it. Silver-colored terminals and black materials are sure signs you're getting junk. Yes, color matters. Tan, red (MSD/Mallory), and blue (Blue Streak) caps have much higher dieselctric strength, which ensures your spark gets where it needs to be. Brass terminals conduct better, particularly if they're copper plated (which is usually only done on the inside of the cap). Yes, they're more expensive, but considering the benefits and the fact that they'll live about twice as long on a properly-tuned car, they're well worth the extra sheckels. The same goes for wires, with the following caveat: Accel Super Stock wires are junk. Period. Don't waste your money. If you have, get something else. Soon.

The seatbelt interlock relay had a 1-time reset switch on it in case the seatbelt interlock system failed inside the car. It would start the car once, and if you tried to start it again with the seatbelts unlatched or a failed system component, you'd have to push the switch again. This would continue until you figured out A ) that something had failed, B ) you had to wear your seatbelt, or C ) you could just leave the seatbelts latched all the time and sit on top of them, which is what a lot of people did.

The law that made seatbelt use mandatory was in effect for less than a full model year. As it happened, government types didn't like wearing their seatbelts either. The law went into effect for model-year '74 but when it was repealed it went into effect immediately. I would estimate that probably 1/3 or more of '74s were built without the system. I know of an original-owner '74 Road Runner 360/4-speed car, May build, that is 100% unrestored and never had the inerlock system. I had a June-build '74 Charger parts car many years back that did not have it either.

 

[kkritsilas]

NoCar340, thanks for the information.

I have also run into this:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/1311_convert_a_ford_or_chrysler_ignition_to_gm_hei/

Has anybody tried this? Any successes or horror stories? The bracket that they show for the Mopar distributor looks like a neat way of cleaning up the wiring but I don't want to try this out and find out that there isn't enough of a heat sink in that bracket to prevent long term failure. The article in Car Craft seems to be pretty positive, but then again, I don't know if they are really Mopar oriented enough to be able to make a good judgement on this.

Kostas

 

[My imp]

I personally don't care whose name is on it. Should I pull the belt off of my power steering on my 4250 lb. Imperial because it has a GM (Saginaw Division) pump? I don't think so! If I were putting out enough horses, there'd be a 9" Ford under it. A good design, is a good design. While a Dana 60 might've come on a HEMI car, a 9" is lighter, cheaper, & much easier to come by. I've got a friend who builds bulletproof GM transmissions. A 700R4 may find its way behind my BB if I can't suss out all the parts I need for a 5-6 spd conversion. Parts can be good, or bad. It gets harder by the day to find quality parts, whether for our cars, or not. 40 yrs ago when I was getting started, I remember the scourge of "grey box" parts coming in the country. Hell, now your lucky if you can find name brand parts. Dura-Crap is just offshore crap in an official looking box. Moog sells Ginsu crap in the same basic wrapper as the American stuff they used to sell. IMHO, I think they sell this crap so they don't have to match parts prices. They always say, "apples to apples" so how come the junk is priced within pennies of the "good stuff" ? Simply profit margins old chap! Why make 33% on a part, if you can make 133% on a part? Is Mequire's better than anyone else? Or, is it the 47% retail markup on the tan sheet prices? I'm going with the 47% over any quality difference.

 

[ramenth]

NoCar340, thanks for the information.

I have also run into this:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/1311_convert_a_ford_or_chrysler_ignition_to_gm_hei/

Has anybody tried this? Any successes or horror stories? The bracket that they show for the Mopar distributor looks like a neat way of cleaning up the wiring but I don't want to try this out and find out that there isn't enough of a heat sink in that bracket to prevent long term failure. The article in Car Craft seems to be pretty positive, but then again, I don't know if they are really Mopar oriented enough to be able to make a good judgement on this.

Kostas

You're gonna get a lot of folks saying that the HEI is the way to go.

Personally, I'm not sold. Yes, I grant you that it provides hotter spark at start up, but ever hear a bone stock GM product start having ignition break up at around 4500-5000 r's? That's because the module takes a s*** at around that RPM. I don't know about you, but my Mopars get wound way beyond 4500 r's. So an upgrade on the "upgrade" is needed right off the bat.

There's a lot of guys who will do the switch because of the ballast. It's anecdotal at best. I've been working on Mopars since I was ten. Been driving 'em since I was 14. I've been professionally working on cars for the past 25 years. I've replaced more bad HEI modules than I have ballasts and that's taking into consideration there's a lot more GM's out there than Mopars. In the popularity of this switch Mopar guys always point to eliminating the ballast. Either they don't have any GM friends or they're GM friends are blinded to brand loyalty. I know a lot of GM guys who cuss the module constantly burning out. "Cheap enough" they say, just keep a spare module in the glove box. Where I come from that's a lot more expensive than keeping a spare ballast in the glove box...

 

[ramenth]

I personally don't care whose name is on it. Should I pull the belt off of my power steering on my 4250 lb. Imperial because it has a GM (Saginaw Division) pump?

No one's saying you should.

If I were putting out enough horses, there'd be a 9" Ford under it. A good design, is a good design. While a Dana 60 might've come on a HEMI car, a 9" is lighter, cheaper, & much easier to come by.

8.75's also came in Hemi cars. From my experience the 8.75 is just as bulletproof as the 9". The 9" has the advantage of having less expensive and better aftermarket support. But then again, I can build a 9.25" that's bulletproof, take a lot of horsepower and torque and come in cheaper than the 9", simply because there's a million Dodge trucks out there.

I've got a friend who builds bulletproof GM transmissions.

That's a knack that a lot of GM rebuilders have developed since the 700R was junk from the factory.

A 700R4 may find its way behind my BB if I can't suss out all the parts I need for a 5-6 spd conversion.

If you're going that far why not put a 4LD80 behind it? Six speeds, gets through the power band quicker, and OD. A lot of GM guys have gained the knack for building them bulletproof, too. But that's because the down fall with the '80 is the same downfall that the 500/518 has: guys never servicing them (band adjustments? What are those? Whatya mean I have to change the oil and filter every 30k?) and towing in overdrive over hilly terrain. (Hey's it's an automatic, right? You just put it in gear and go, right?)