Pittman, Idler, Tie Rods - 87 Fifth Avenue

[Justwondering]

I took my car to get a front end alignment and was told:

"You need a new pittman arm, new idler arm, and inner tie rods. Also, the frame is out of alignment by almost 4 inches"

So of course, I asked for an estimate on repair, choked, and said I'd do the repairs myself.

At that point, I called BudW and asked if he these repairs were shade tree mechanic possible and was relieved to find its a doable project.

Procurement:
OReilly's generally said each of the part was about 20 bucks or 50 bucks my choice on economy or higher quality. Except the tie rods which were about 8 bucks. Doesn't always tell you the size

Rock Auto seems to offer a better quality for about the same price. Just describes things as professional and not for taxis or police package.

BudW's recommendation was to try and get something with grease points so I can hopefully make them last longer. Also, get the beefier size if possible. And to go ahead and do the inner and outer tie rods.

My phone is downstairs so I will post pictures this afternoon. I'm tabling the frame issue until I fix the steering issues.

Parts numbers or some guidance on procurement would be helpful.

Meanwhile, I'm going to go audition Darth Car's antenna rehab and see if everything still fits after my sad welding job yesterday.

 

[Aspen500]

The only real trouble you may have is the pitman arm. It's held on the tapered splined sector shaft with a big nut torqued to 175 ft lbs. You will need a pitman arm puller to get it off. Sometimes they come off without too much trouble, other times it seems they're welded on almost.

Being you're in Texas, might not be a problem (rust) but new tie rod adjusting sleeves aren't that much and may make life a lot easier.

You can go to bigger tie rod ends (the threaded portion) by using the matching sleeves as well. Not really necessary unless you plan on taking the car to a road course and race on the weekends.

I kind of wonder what they meant about "the frame being out of alignment almost 4 inches".

 

[lowbudget]

First thing I would do is hose everything that I was going to unbolt down with penetrating oil. Tie rod ends, adjusters ect. Use a real penetrating oil not WD 40, Kroil, Knocker loose, PB blaster are my favorites.

Use quality parts, MOOG comes to mind here. My alignment guy told me that is all he uses any more. Also as Bud W said get the beefier ones. To me your life is depending on your steering so cheaper is not better.

Before disassembly take measurement on the tie rod ends. Use the measurement to get back in the ball park when reassembling. This should get you back to the alignment shop without scuffing up a tire.....don't ask how I know this. lol

When he said frame is out was he talking the rear axle alignment? I can see a body shop with a frame rack telling you that your frame is out of whack but didn't figure an alignment rack would.

Last of all do you trust them? I know of unscrupulous shops that tell you one thing just to get the labor of the repair.....pretty good use of the word unscrupulous huh. lol

 

[Dr Lebaron]

I'll call BS on the shop.
If my 79 Lebaron Medallion can walk through an alignment with no extra moaning, I'll call BS.

And my alignment was out so bad, I was eating front D/S tires and had under steer.

 

[Aspen500]

An alignment machine will show if the rear axle is crooked in the car or off to one side or the other. It will also indicate a bent structure concern (bent frame or other suspension components) I mean, it won't show it directly but the alignment reading on the screen will tell you something is out of whack and not just something out of adjustment. You just have to know what you're looking at on the screen and how to interpret the numbers. It'll show a difference in wheelbase from side to side as well as the thrust angle which is the relationship between the front and rear wheels basically. Ideally you would have a zero thrust angle but that's about impossible even with adjustable independent rear suspension and /or rear suspension subframe that you can loosen the bolts and move from side to side a bit. With leafs and live rear axle, it is what it is. if it's too far off, something is shifted, broken or bent. If the thrust angle is too great, the car may drive straight but have a noticeable dog track.

 

[Justwondering]

Here are the pictures:

Notice the shiny spot at the top right which I believe is one end of the 'drag line'

Here is the close up ... its definitely shot.

Pittman arm

 

[Justwondering]

And this is why they say the frame is out of alignment.
Driver's side:

Three fingers width on the driver's side.

Passenger side:

All fingers and thumb in the same area on passenger side.

I have no idea what this 'area' is, just that they seemed to be concerned it was causing the car to pull to the right.

 

[80mirada]

They have obviously never seen and FMJ body front end before. The torsion bars run at angles to keep them from interfering with each other.

The picture is from the Haynes manual and clearly shows the angle of the bars.

 

[Aspen500]

80 is correct. The torsion bars are not parallel to the car and your car is just fine!
That idler arm stud looks kind of suspect (3rd pic). Either the nut is loose and the taper is not seated in the drag link or, it was replaced with the wrong one at some point. The boot should be much closer to the drag link, like the pitman arm is.

If your car is pulling to the right, other than loose parts or a simple alignment issue, tires can also do it. If it still pulls after the front end is done and aligned, try swapping tires side to side and see if the pull is either gone or,,,,,,,,,then pulls the other direction. A pull can also happen if the steering gear isn't centered when the wheels are straight ahead but we're getting ahead of ourselves

 

[Justwondering]

The shop guy seemed to think it would be pulling drastically to the right.
Mine doesn't.
So my red flag went up and I figured I better find out more about the car
before I pull the trigger on bigger repairs.

Between 80Mirada and BudW, you are saving me many gray hairs!

 

[Aspen500]

As always, trying not to judge the shop or guy that looked at your car but, maybe a different shop would be better(?) When a red flag goes up, and if it goes up a more than once, it's telling you something isn't right. You already knew that though

I wish you could bring it to the shop I work at. Our primary front end/alignment guy has been doing it for over 40 years and could make anything drive straight as an arrow. He's very good. Unfortunately, he is retiring in a couple months................

 

[Justwondering]

I hear that.
I think I'm working against type. 95% of everything that goes into the shops down here seems to be trucks - Mostly Ford and Chevy with a little bit of Dodge.
And of that about 40% are diesel.
I think the younger mechanic helpers (not shop owners) are just not exposed to enough vehicles - much less older vehicles.

But I knew enough to ask you guys to backstop me.

 

[Aspen500]

About 95% of what we get in the shop is 2000 and newer. I'd not expect the younger techs to know much about vehicles built before they were born and they'd have no reason to really. Being Wisconsin, older than 2000 is fairly rare for daily drivers.
I think that's why our shop tends to get a lot of the older stuff. By older I mean like late '80's and earlier. Us "old guys" know how to work on them and the other shops in town are mostly the under 30 crowd. Where I work, 30 is the youngest in the shop, lol. It's not like there's a lot of shops in the Mosinee area, I think including us there's only four. Bring on the older cars, it breaks up the routine!

 

[Justwondering]

Getting 2 of these:
Moog Tie Rod End - Outer $18.08 each

1987 Chrysler Fifth Avenue
#1465-05049411

2 of these:
Moog Tie Rod End - Inner $18.08 each

1987 Chrysler Fifth Avenue
#1465-05049422

1 of these
Moog Idler Arm $30.33

1987 Chrysler Fifth Avenue
#1465-05050095

1 of these
Moog Tie Rod End Adjusting Sleeve $16.08 (each)

1987 Chrysler Fifth Avenue
#1465-05288266

1 of these
Moog Pitman Arm $58.33

1987 Chrysler Fifth Avenue
#1465-05081353

Does this seem right? I am moving it up from 9/16 to 11/16.

From PartsGeek
Subtotal: $193.14
Shipping Total: $18.50

Total: $211.64

 

[Justwondering]

And here is similar from Rock Auto:
Part Price Quantity Total

1987 CHRYSLER FIFTH AVENUE 5.2L 318cid V8

Steering : Idler Arm
MOOG K7086 {#3402846, 3815783, 4014089} Problem Solver Info
Powdered Metal Gusher Brg. For Better Lubrication; Except Police Or Taxi

$25.89 $25.89

Steering : Pitman Arm
MOOG K7101 {#3815777} Problem Solver Info
Power steering; Greaseable Socket Reduces Corrosion/Wear


Would you like a Pitman Arm Puller to simplify the removal of your old arm?

$53.79 $53.79

Steering : Tie Rod End
MOOG ES355RL {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers} Problem Solver Info
Inner; Optional; Powdered Metal Gusher Brg. For Better Lubrication; 11/16" Thread


Would you like an Inner Tie Rod Tool to simplify the installation of your new inner tie rod?

$14.63 $29.26
MOOG ES352R {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers} Problem Solver Info
Outer; Optional; Powdered Metal Gusher Brg. For Better Lubrication; 11/16" Thread


A Pickle Fork will allow you to easily separate your tie rods.

$14.97 $29.94

Steering : Tie Rod End Adjusting Sleeve
MOOG ES440S {#3402805} Info
Optional 11/16" Diameter Tie Rod Ends Must Be Used

$13.14 $13.14



Subtotal $152.02
Shipping : Ground

(3 to 4 business days, You should receive by Tuesday, September 13)
Shipping $9.99
Please allow one business day for our warehouse to process your order, plus transit time for selected shipping method, plus any delay shown above for non-stock items or outlying warehouses, before expecting your order to arrive. "Receive by" dates are best estimates considering these factors but are not guaranteed.

Total $162.01

 

[Justwondering]

Having never done the idler, pittman, tie rod exchange, I don't know if I've got everything I need for the replacement or if there is something else I should get.

 

[MiradaMegacab]

Based on the "4 inch frame being out of alignment" misdiagnosis... Have you checked for play in the tie rods?

 

[Aspen500]

True, wouldn't be a bad idea make sure they're actually loose first.........
The parts on your list should do it. They come with new nuts and cotter pins so that's covered.
As I said, the only real tough one will be the pitman arm. A puller to remove it from the steering gear sector shaft is not optional. Even with a puller and mega Snap-On 1/2" impact gun and the puller way beyond it's design limit, I've had to end up CAREFULLY cutting a slit in one side to release the pressure. Some of them just plain refuse to budge without destructive methods. You can't heat it because that would ruin the sector shaft seals. Caution is needed to not damage the splines on the shaft though. In Texas, you may not have that situation, hopefully!

 

[kkritsilas]

Aren't there supposed to be tie rod adjusting sleeves on each tie rod pair (inner/outer). If so, aren't there two tie rod adjusting sleeves required?

 

[Justwondering]

Miradamegacab -

The silver cylinder showing in the center seems to be a very compromised part. I can nearly pop it out with my hand.