Power: Real vs. Percieved

[My imp]

I was talking with my son-in-law today about cars of the past vs. late model stuff. The difference between a '66 Dodge Coronet with a 440/727/8.75" with a 3.23 sure-grip vs. a 2010 Cobalt SS turbo 5 speed. Punch the '66 & hold on for dear life. Let the thing take you through the gears, fully enjoyable time. Do the same with the'10. Boring as hell. Modern suspension, better brakes, better handling, mileage, many other areas as well. The thrill of a 12 second almost 50 yr old car vs. a 5 yr old car (granted, it doesn't run 12's), but your spouse could sleep in the passenger seat of the Cobalt at the same time. Try THAT in an old Mopar! My wife would be screaming! Even if the traps were identical, an old car will ALWAYS feel faster. I had my Stealth R/T turbo at 135 (indicated) @ 2:00 AM on the highway. My wife had been sleeping, & I asked her to guess w/o looking at the speedo, how fast she thought we were going. She said, "I don't know, 80-90, doesn't matter, slow down!" When I told her how fast we were really going, she liked to change my seats from grey to brown! Try that in a Duster, or Aspen! It'll do it, just won't FEEL the same.

 

[Jack Meoff]

A buddy of mine tosses me the keys of his 69 Road Runner once in a while.
Somewhere in it's life someone dropped a 440 4bbl in it.
Pistol grip shifter....it almost doesn't matter how fast I'm going in that thing.
With manual steering and manual brakes and the huge throws on the shifter I'm in heaven. THAT'S a car....I've had people say "I like manual over automatic" but after their Mazda 3 they wouldn't have a freakin' chance in that thing.
Like I said.....that's a car....not a "vehicle"
My Caravelle has a straight pipe back...(I accidentally lost the cat.....I swear)
Beating out 110 ponies.....maybe a couple more now that she can breathe...and I'll take that over one of those little "metro" WRZ's. Just the feel of that 2bbl slant screaming away.....the whole feel of the car.
That's my idea of a good time. You can keep the little zipper cars and the ricers....I'll take my old iron thank you.

 

[My imp]

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! What I like to refer as "Power by Singer! Even does zig-zag stitch!" ZZZZZZing!

 

[NoCar340]

A friend of mine has an '08 Super Duty wicked up to about 550HP. Between the ultra-comfy seats, quiet ride, and the fact that the engine doesn't make any exciting noises (4 grand? Maybe?), it just doesn't feel that quick. Then again, when 500HP has to drag around over 4 tons it's a lot like hooking a dogsled team to a Winnebago, too.

What's really sad is the fact that it makes that kind of power without ever having turned a single bolt on the engine. Free up the exhaust, put an S&B cold air kit on it and a grey-market "off-road use only" tuner and it's like taking candy from a baby. He still can't catch the boss' 10,000lb Ram dually, though.

 

[Jack Meoff]

It's funny how back in the day they'd underrate the cars to dodge the EPA
And now it seems they overrate them to get you to buy one.
I've been in supposedly high horse rated ricers...don't feel like power to me.
It's easy to get a gerbil to move quick.
It's harder to get a bull to.

 

[kkritsilas]

It comes down to torque, and over how wide a power band it is delivered in. The modern "little cars" (the 4 cylinder "hot hatches", usually that turn a gazillion RPM, or have turbos) need the rpm to delier any sort of power. The older pushrod V8s, from any maker, make torque from idle on up. The Thunder and Lightning that is part of a V8 (especially the big blocks) just adds to the sensation: squealing tires, secondaries opening up, etc. The little cars have traction control (no more squealing tires) and fuel injection (no more secondaries opening up, or intake noise), and the intakes have been made to be quieter. They may be as fast on paper, but no way are they as satisfying to drive.

The little cars weigh a lot for their size, too. My first car was a 1983 Honda Accord coupe (I was young and foolish at the time). Weighed in at all of 1860 lbs. Current Accords are in the 3500 lb range, even Civic are 2800 lbs. That Cobalt SS is probably 2800 lbs, my 1988 Chevrolet Beretta V6 was 2800 lbs, and it was a V6, and a bigger car.

Kostas

 

[NoCar340]

All those safety measures, sound deadening, and creature comforts add weight. There was an article in Car & Driver a few years ago about the bloating of vehicles for their size. At the time, the average new midsize car was about 2/3rd if not less than the size of its equal in 1970, but weighed the same or more. Park a '70 Malibu next to the same model 40 years its junior, or if you prefer compacts do the same with the current Dart.

 

[ramenth]

I don't know... "modern" cars can be fun given the right circumstances.

The torque steer of a modern front wheel drive turbo once the boost comes up and you have to wrestle the steering wheel to keep it straight can be just as appealing as laying into the throttle of a big block and having the ass want to come around on you.

 

[Jack Meoff]

I don't know... "modern" cars can be fun given the right circumstances.

The torque steer of a modern front wheel drive turbo once the boost comes up and you have to wrestle the steering wheel to keep it straight can be just as appealing as laying into the throttle of a big block and having the ass want to come around on you.

I agree......
But there's something so much cooler about keeping the ass from swinging out than holding the front end straight.
Not to mention....no wheel standing with FWD.

 

[9secRR]

modern power compared to old school power is different.

my 2010 ram has 395 hp and 403 ft lbs. it is dead until 3500 rpm and then has decent pull. seats are plush and with the air blowing cold and tunes blasting away, it's a nice ride.

my 79 R/T is a different story. 653 hp and 590 ft lbs. it's not dead off the line and has awesome pull till 126 mph (1/4 mile is done). seats are comfy but with a 5 point harness there is no moving around. no air blowing in my face and the only tunes I get is the 3-1/2'' open pipes under my seat.

 

[Jack Meoff]

My kind of tunes....

 

[My imp]

Right on! My Stealth R/T got more boring the faster it went. Granted, not much torque from the 3.0, but when those hair dryers started whistling their song it was YEE HAH! Saw through the gears, & there was no hold on for dear life, no surprises. The only way you'd know how fast you were going, would be to hit something. Even then, your next of kin would've known how fast you were going. They used to rate the Stealth as the worlds most affordable super car. All the tech in those cars back then, comes on almost any semi performance car today. But you had a computer helping you with adjustable suspension, yaw control, ABS, adjustable exhaust, AWD, all wheel steer, 17" 45 series tires all the way around, etc.. I'm surprised I had to shift & steer! Take a '65 Plymouth wagon with a 413, torqueflite, 14" 78 series BIAS-PLY tires, 8.75" sure-grip with an optional 3.73, 3.90, whatever was available (I'm not looking,it up,don't really care) in '65. Put it to the woods, & hold on! Just try to turn, brake, or do anything other than go fast in a straight line & stop for gas. Which is more fun? Take one buddy, no one is gonna fit in that "back seat" & go have some fun, or grab 9 people, load up, & go party! Pick your poison!

 

[72Dodge]

modern power compared to old school power is different.

my 2010 ram has 395 hp and 403 ft lbs. it is dead until 3500 rpm and then has decent pull. seats are plush and with the air blowing cold and tunes blasting away, it's a nice ride.

Wow, really? I have an '11 5.7, and it's a beast, even off the line. Granted, it feels even better with a very slight rolling start, but it pushes me back in the seat off the line. Granted, I have a short cab, short bed, and 3.55 gears, and 275 tires, but still. I really wanted the 3.91, but I'm glad I only got the 3.55, it's definitely fun enough without destroying highway mileage completely.

Still total point taken... there's NOTHING like the old loud, obnoxious muscle cars for fun driving. The new ones are much quieter, far more stable, far more comfortable... all in all, let's face, it, BETTER in every way, other than the raw fun factor!

 

[My imp]

Yep, my point exactly. With all the computer assists, it's almost like having training wheels. It takes a certain amount of skill to punch something that the traction control doesn't immediately keep you in a straight line. You know, like Grandpa used to say about automatic transmissions. Wimps, gimps, & shrimps drive them thar thangs! Agreed, they are better in everyway (except looks). They've lost the concept of the musclecar. It's supposed to be a stripped down mid-size offering with the biggest, highest horsepower engine, stout drivetrain to handle it. None of this loading the thing up with every option in the book, just to get the big engine. The Challenger is heavier than the barges of yesteryear! My son loved Mopar as a kid. Now to even suggest looking at one (he just bought a 2 yr. old VW CC) now, the lower end stuff is POS, everything else is bloated pigs. If I wanted a dump truck, I'd buy a dump truck is how he feels about the new Challenger. His entire life he saw his parents drive Mopars whenever possible, others if the deal was right for his Mom. I've always had a soft spot for air-cooled Beetls. Had one while he was growing up. He bought a golf that he put over 200k on with nothing but maintenance parts changed. He's more than likely a lifelong VW owner. Brand loyalty has a lot to do with how we perceive cars as well. If you hate Chevy, anything breaks, it confirms your "typical POS Chevy", even a taillight bulb. Brit's say America can't build a good reliable car, yet the name Lucas sends shivers up my spine. Their cars rusted with reckless abandon too. Don't even get me started on Italian cars! No matter what goes wrong with Italian cars, they always blame American roads, American drivers, salt on the roads, American mechanics not knowing what they're doing! WTF!

 

[72Dodge]

Yes, and looks.

75% of all Italian cars are still on the road. The other 25% somehow found their way home.

 

[Jack Meoff]

A possibility of why so many euro cars are still rolling (in Europe anyway) and American cars aren't is because of the "disposable car" mentality here.
Even more so now. If I talk to anyone these days the idea that they'll have their ride longer than five years is preposterous.
The only feasible explanation I can come up with as to why there aren't still a pile of F's and M's rolling around is because people ditched them for something newer. Obviously rust is a factor but if that was dealt with as an ongoing maintenance thing I think a lot more would have survived.
Except for me my Fifth wasn't looked after all that well yet it's still rocking and hadn't reached nightmare rust status....that will be dealt with this year then all indications point to many more years of service....

 

[72Dodge]

True. I was once pulled over right after moving to another state before I was able to get the inspection sticker. The cop walked around my 8 year old Jeep, and said "well, I guess it doesn't look TOO bad for how old it is" (at the time, it still looked almost like new, just a little typical wear here and there). I was like... "huh? It's only 8 years old, what's wrong with that? He mumbled some comment about I guess ya gotta do what ya gotta do...?! The inspections in some of these states don't encourage people to keep their cars either. Some of them are so stringent, you almost have no choice but to buy a brand new car or spend just as much fixing up the slightly old one. It wouldn't persuade people like us, but for lots of people, it practically scares them into buying or leasing a new car every few years. It's ridiculous.

 

[kkritsilas]

The inspections in Japan are much tighter. It is almost impossible to get a car older than 3 years to pass inspection there, which partially explains why (at least here in Alberta) the many Japanese imports (really imported from Japan, as in driver sits on the right side of the car) that are showing up. They pretty much get failed in Japanese inspection, people buy a replacement, and the old car that failed inspection gets sold/shipped to a broker who brings it over to this side of the Pacific. There are rumblings that the provincial government will outlaw the sale of RHD cars due to the safety issues with people not used to driving cars with RHD. You see a number of different Japanese car mdoels that have never been officially imported driving around town.

Kostas

P.S. As for Lucas, that company wasn't known as "The Lord of Darkness" without reason. Helped a buddy work on a TR-7 with no headlights. Now, I am not a British car guy (aside from Jaguars and Aston Martins), but the schematics that I was working from, and the wiring in the car are so totally different, and in many cases, badly designed, that the movie line "And you are the guys who won WW II" comes to mind. I wouldn't emergency jury rig a car like the way that the factory designed that electrical system.

 

[NoCar340]

The Prince of Darkness. :icon_biggrin: The dash wiring in my friend's mid-'70s Jag XJ12L would give an electrical engineer seizures. He popped the cluster out of that thing to diagnose a gauge issue about 20 years ago, and the harness going just to the cluster is bigger than my wrist. It was such a fustercluck that when the fuel system failed electrically, he parked the car. It's been sitting ever since.

As far as "nanny" systems like yaw control, ABS (which doesn't do a thing where you need it most--ice), traction control, "skip-shift" mechanisms (a GM favorite) and on and on, all I can say is that when I was reading the information stored by OBD-II computers before the standard was even implemented for '96, my desire to own anything new went out the window. CANBUS made it worse: the HVAC system on an early 2000s Buick wouldn't function correctly because a taillamp was shorted?! No communication with PCM because the driver's side window module was burnt (another GM)?! Why do we need a module that connects to the PCM/BCM to operate the windows? Who needs to know that I rolled down the window? Switches and motors connected to the battery worked great for 50+ years. I need Bluetooth capability to read DTCs on a 2010 Camaro, because there's no physical port? While all the examples above are from GM vehicles, it's no better with anyone else, although the GM cars do seem to have the most bizarre failures. I wonder about the Bluetooth thing, too... since a diagnostic port can't reasonably be put on the outside of a car, is that something that can be used by a LEO to confirm how you were driving? Ted Kacynski seems a little less crazy every day. In Europe, insurance companies have been getting out of paying life policies for years by using OBD-II data to "prove" suicide by motor vehicle, never considering the fact that perhaps the deer ran off before the authorities arrived.

The goal of my Imperial from the outset was a daily-drivable, relatively fuel-efficient comfortable cruiser with plenty of comfort and convenience options (although I'm forgoing power steering and brakes). It will have computerized EFI and spark control, just like the new stuff, but I can change fuel and spark anywhere on the map to what I feel is optimum. The air will blow cold and the doors will lock with a remote; the windows will go down only as far as I tell them with a push of a switch. The radio will play "long 'n' loud" until I open a door. It will not have frivolous airbags, which do essentially nothing in 99% of crashes if you're wearing your seatbelt, which I always do--even in the back seat. The brakes will do as they're told with F/R balance optimized to that exact car. I will know when a tire is low because I have eyes, and I'll know when it needs an oil change because it has an odometer.

Other than firing the injectors and the coils, the car achieve nothing via computer, with the possible exception of remote entry and possibly remote start. I'll do the driving, thanks... I don't need a government mandate or some insurance weenie doing it for me. A lot of the features people love about new cars can be implemented to older ones with a very-basic knowledge of electricity and a soldering iron on your kitchen table: dome-lamp delays with "theater dimming" as they go off, headlamp timers, radio stays on until a door is opened (this trick can be done with nothing more than two regular relays), etc. Get a book and a soldering iron, and the required items for the feature desired can usually be had for less than $10.