What happened

[volareandgtcat]

Ok so I got the big idea to change spark plugs and cap-n-rotor .. now I'm not saying I didn't touch this plug .. and I did put the socket on before the ratchet (tight fit with the alt. in the way).. but as soon as I put the ratchet on .. ping ... went through the rest of the job easy enough .. started the car and idles smooth now, might of been cracked all along ??.. and here I was blaming the carb all this time .. plugs all looked good to me (2nd pic.) the plug wires ? .. well the ones on the car actually look better than the replacements .. so I left them on.

 

[AJ/FormS]

That looks pretty fresh. I see no evidense of electrical arcing.
The front one is nearly impossible to not damage, unless the alternator is loosened and cranked up,out of the way.

 

[volareandgtcat]

Thanks AJ/ .. I did try to use a swivel on the front one .. maybe the socket wasn't on properly .. I ended up using a 1/4" drive with a 3/8" adapter and with that combo I cleared the alt. easily.

 

[Aspen500]

I 2nd the socket broke the insulator theory. What I'd guess is, one of the plugs has a crack in the porcelain internally where it's not visible and causing an arc to ground. At work I've changed plugs (or just the plug on the suspect cylinder) to verify if the plug is the cause or isn't. The times it was the causal part, couldn't see a darn thing wrong with the one I took out.

 

[volareandgtcat]

I'll agree ... was funny tho .. never even had a chance to bear down on it .. broke as soon as the ratchet got put on .. I did have to push tho .. I struggled till the smaller tools came in ...
So I went from Champions rv17yc to NGK 2869 and put Accel cap-n-rotor(tan) .. took it around the block .. out here thats 1kilometer every direction .. the car started right up .. idled much better at stops and seems to go smoother from a stop .. tomorrow it's supposed to rain .. I'll get a better feel. and since I have them .. maybe I'll tackle the wires too. Yeah, maybe .. the new bbq showed up today .. burgers and salsicca on tap tomorrow ... lol
Thanks for the input .. always good to hear from you people .. I bought this car so I can wrench on it, instead of those computerized jelly beans out there .. but geesh .. I now realize, I have forgotten so much !! lol

 

[AJ/FormS]

Many years ago, I had a 95 Sunfire with a 2.2. It had a habit of suddenly running on three cylinders from time to time, just out of the blue. I drove it nice, cuz I had the Cuda to wail on. I isolated the faulty cylinder and swapped its nice-looking plug to another hole and sure enough the problem followed the plug.
So I popped a new plug in and carried on.
Some months passed by and it happened again.By now I had forgotten which hole had the first issue, so I again isolated the hole and popped in a new plug, and all was well. This time I noted the hole.
Then I had a real good look at the plug. Under a magnifying glass I found a longitudinal crack going up the insulator. Aha! I said. I wondered if the first plug had that same crack; so after scrounging around I found that first plug.And sure enough, it was cracked the same.
More time goes by. It happens again.Same hole.
I pulled the head off.It was pulling coolant into the chamber.I bought a new head. It never had that problem again.
The point of this story is;
Check your plug(s) for a cracked insulator, with a magnifier.A cracked insulator is usually associated with detonation. Detonation is bad. If you find a cracked one, you will need to do some more hunting.....

 

[Aspen500]

This may not be your experience with Champion plugs BUT, I quit using them many moons ago. When I bought my '81 D150 in the early '90's it had brand new Champion plugs. On light accell such as when going up a grade, it would misfire. Can't be the plugs, they're brand new right? Couldn't determine anything else was wrong so I swapped them for some new Motorcraft plugs (worked as a Ford tech at the time). Ran like a Champ. Same EXACT thing when I bought my '96 Dakota in 1998, random misfire on light accell and it had what appeared to fairly recently replaced Champion plugs. Hmmmmmmmm, replaced them with new Motorcrafts and problem solved. Funny how a Mopar will run hgreat with Motorcraft plugs but can't tell you how many driveability problems I fixed on Fords that the owner had just put in brand new Champions. Put a set of Motorcraft in and,,,,,,,,,runs like new.
As I said, your results may vary. Honestly, I use Motorcraft, AC Delco (gasp) or NGK and haven't had any problems with any of them.

AJ, you had a 2.2L GM that had a cracked head, headgasket leak or warped head? Gee, that isn't very common, lol! Only leaked into ONE cylinder? That is uncommon. They usually liked to do it in pairs.

 

[Jack Meoff]

I've heard bad things about the new Champion plugs. Some people still swear by them and others won't go near them.

I run NGK in all 3 of mine now and I've never had an issue.

 

[volareandgtcat]

Captain .. it was one of your posts that got me to get the NGK's ... just thought you'd like to know your advice is being used .. lol

 

[Aspen500]

Something changed with Champion plugs about 25 years ago already. They always seemed fine and then they started becoming the cause of the driveability problems in a lot of the vehicles that came into the shop.
I've got those NGK V-Power plugs in the Aspen and no complaints.

Just a side note on spark plugs while we're on the subject:
Always a good idea to use the same type as original, especially with a stock ignition. What I mean is, for "our" cars a good old copper core. The fine wire ones tend to only work in engines with ignition systems designed to use them which is basically newer stuff. The opposite is true also. Put copper core in an engine that is supposed to have iridium fine wire or something like that and it'll cause problems. Usually concerns that have spark plugs as a possible cause way down the list (like hard starting for example).

 

[Jack Meoff]

Captain .. it was one of your posts that got me to get the NGK's ... just thought you'd like to know your advice is being used .. lol

Good to hear I said something useful....lol.

Something changed with Champion plugs about 25 years ago already. They always seemed fine and then they started becoming the cause of the driveability problems in a lot of the vehicles that came into the shop.
I've got those NGK V-Power plugs in the Aspen and no complaints.

Just a side note on spark plugs while we're on the subject:
Always a good idea to use the same type as original, especially with a stock ignition. What I mean is, for "our" cars a good old copper core. The fine wire ones tend to only work in engines with ignition systems designed to use them which is basically newer stuff. The opposite is true also. Put copper core in an engine that is supposed to have iridium fine wire or something like that and it'll cause problems. Usually concerns that have spark plugs as a possible cause way down the list (like hard starting for example).

I don't even know specifically what they are but ages ago I read an article on Allpar where a Chrysler tech said he had great results with NGK ZFR 5N's in both slants and 318's. That's what I've been using. The ones in my Fifth are 5 years old and still running strong.

 

[volareandgtcat]

Thanks Aspen500 ... I got the fine wire type .. going to have keep an eye on things. Forewarned is something something .. I forget how that goes.

 

[AJ/FormS]

The new plugs are designed to run on the crappy new coils.
Actually it's the reverse. The new tip technology allows the use of crappy coils.
If you marry the old tech plugs to the new coils, then you get trouble.
The old style coils will fire just about anything.
A hi-perf old style coil will.
The COP coils are the most sensitive. They are designed to fire just once every second revolution. That means there is plenty of dwell time to get them up to speed. And they are designed to fire a tip that has a much reduced voltage requirement. If you dare put an old style plug in there, that coil will just about kill itself trying to fire it. Eventually it will give up.
As long as you don't mess with the plugs they will usually last for many many miles.I recently changed the plugs in my wifes Escape. they had 238000kms. That's nearly 150000 miles. The gaps were huge. The firing tip nearly gone.

 

[BudW]

I can’t comment myself, but I have a friend who works as a living on pretty much all age cars and he told me the newer style plugs will work on our older cars but cost of the newer plugs don’t seem to be worth it.

What my friend said (again I only work but on my own cars) is the newer engines were designed to not have as much engine oil go past the rings or valve stems - which fouls the newer style plugs much faster, and even the newer plugs still have to be replaced about every 30k miles – so cost not justifying the means.

When our engines were built, 1 quart of oil per 1,000 miles is considered normal. Today’s engines, 1 quart of engine oil per 2-2,500 miles is considered to be normal – so my friend might be correct (or at his theory sounds logical to me).

BudW

 

[AJ/FormS]

Your friend is not wrong.
Going the other way is sortof OK.Platinum tipped plugs or specialty plugs in older engines works ok.Our pre-EFI coils can really put out the juice tho,and that means the gaps may go away sooner than normal.When you know that these new plugs usually are delivered with large plug gaps, then the plug may have a shorter life in the old engines, as eventually that old style coil may have trouble firing it. The wide gaps however do, in the plugs early life, encourage the plug to generate a hotter spark, which can produce a nicer idle.plus the wide gap is harder to foul, be it oil,gas or ash.
When figured on a cost per mile though, the old style plugs are probably the best bang for the buck.And if you fire them with a performance coil, and your engine is in good shape,they will go for years.
I have a set that has been in my 367 Barracuda since 1999. They have over 100,000 miles. They are copper.They have probably cost me less than $2.00Can per year!
As to oil consumption. I remember my old 340cars were about 1qt/1000mi. But not any of my teeners. While the carbs were fat,and the forged slugs were loose,and the rings were cast,and remember umbrella valve seals?;I imagine it had more to do with the way we drove them than anything else in particular.
I know my 367 has KBs, moly plasma file-fit rings,posi-valve seals,A whole buncha more power, the carb is still fat, but it's pretty easy on oil.

 

[volareandgtcat]

So .. keep an eye on them .. change back to copper when the time comes .. maybe upgrade the coil at that time also .. coil doesn't look new but not ancient either. This thread has been a real eye opener for me .. thanks for all the input and don't hesitate to add more.

 

[rcmaniac791]

I've got an MSD blaster coil in mine. Never had any issues. I did try platinum plugs for some time. Never ran right with those. I threw champions back in it, and it seems a lot happier. Just my .02 cents.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Back in the late70s, I was fixing stuff on my nice asphalt pad,in summers, for spare cash. I was in my early 20s. A customer would bring me his problem car, I would diagnose it, and send him out for parts. I never got stung that way.
Well I learned something that first summer.
A customer brought me his first year of HEI Chevy truck. He wanted a pre-holiday tune up.He was gonna tow his mega long camper with this 350. Being as it was HEI, that meant plugs, cap, rotor,filters, and a quick timing check. He came back with Champions. I pulled out grungy A/Cs, and popped in the new Champeens, cap and rotor,etc.It ran like a top.I thought.
So i deliver the truck the truck a couple of blocks over. The customer is not home,so I walk back.
Next day the truck is back. He wants to know why it runs like crap, and what did I do. Well after tearing out my hair trying to figure out why it runs so rough. I decide it was nothing I did. So I send him out for A/Cs with the promise that if A/Cs don't cure it, he won't have to pay me a cent for my way too-much time.
So I pop in the new plugs, and miracle of miracles, she runs perfect. Never better he says.
I got paid.
And I got a lot of referral work from him, and all his other work,
as well.
I made a decision that day, to ever after install only the plugs that the car was originally supplied with,and if the customer argued about that, drive thru.

 

[volareandgtcat]

I may change back to coppers sooner than later ...... starts right up, idles smooth, put it in gear and stall ... when warm and going to restart sounds like it's catching but doesn't, just falls flat ..... I need a refresher course on driving with a carburetor, had the same problems before the changes, so it may be me .. EFI's really spoiled me especially the tip start. It's a daily driver that I don't need to drive daily.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Now hold on there; That is not likely to be a plug issue.
How long has this been going on? Oh, since before the new plugs went in;I see.

When a cold engine starts right up, and idles smooth, it means the plugs are working,and so is the choke and so is the carbs low-speed circuit.

The crappy hot-start is usually a carb issue, but if you have a slanty with solid lifters,the long crank time could; that's could, be related to tight valves.So you always have to eliminate that first. You could spend hours dinking with the carb, and never see an improvement in the hot-start, until the valves are adjusted right.
So after they are known to be right, I always do a compression test. In this way I know what to expect.If it's good, I know I can get rid of the hot-start issue, easy.
But if compression is sour,and i'm working by the hour,there's not much point in continuing.
So after the valves and compression are known to be good, then we can attack the carb, where the real issue is.
So you are down to two issues;
1)the long crank time when hot is usually from A)the fuel either not being in the bowl, or B)the fuel being puddled in the manifold. and
2) the stalling when going into gear, is usually an air velocity issue..
But first, let's go back and make sure the valves are adjusted right, and that the symptoms persist.

So after that, and that the problem persists, here's my thinking.
Since the engine starts nice when cold, that means it had fuel in the bowls when you shut it off.So that rules out 1A, leaving us with 1B). Fuel being in the manifold is a flooded condition. The usual work-around is to put the pedal to between 1/2 and all the way down and simply holding it there while cranking. After a few seconds the engine clears out and fires right up, and you can take your foot off the pedal. If this is how yours is behaving, then we will have to determine why it is flooding.
More to come....