Sludge- stopping it from getting worse

[YY1]

Posted on B body, but this is more of a late LA issue, so maybe you guys can help-

Working on a 1987 5.2 roller-

I was pulling off the front end to change a water pump, and put on a 4 bbl intake, and...

There was a bunch of carbon "sheets" directly uder the intake, and a moderate ammount of sludge in the lifter gallery and under the valve covers.

Not horrible, but more that any engine I've ever had.

I got out all I could with a brush, screwdriver and shop vac.

What can I do about the rest?

When I had the motor set in, the shop found a leak, and replaced the pan gasket. they didn't say anything about a lot of sludge in the pan. They're friends of mine, so They would have said something if it was there.

I'm guessing it hasn't madie it's way down there yet.

I'm not crazy about products like "marvel mystery oll" and the like.

I've also heard that leaking intake gaskets can cause this. Is this so?

The engine ran pretty darn good in the donor car.

Thanks-

 

[77kickinaspen]

try the engine sea foam and mobile one thatwould help with the sludge greatly . as for the other issue beyond me the guy i bought my aspen from said he took the oe intake off and said there where deposits evreywhere cuz it was a old lady and never took it out of town 35mph > so i know how they get there he said he just chiped them away and put a new intake on cus it had deposits too

 

[Erics5th]

True about an engine that doesn't get warmed up and burn off the contaminants in the oil. Also, Pennsoil and Quaker State used to be bad for sludge...don't know if they are any better now though. Use the Sea Foam like kickin said. Follow the directions. Not a huge fan of motor flush stuff though. Mystery Oil isn't to bad for unsticking rings or lifters, but I wouldn't use it as a motor flush. Change the oil filter (no Fram, use Purolaltor, Wix or Baldwin brands) and change the oil with a good oil. Personally, I like Valvoline in my engine. Tip: Napa brand oil is Valvoline and usually cheaper.

 

[77kickinaspen]

i only said mobile1 cus its high in deturgents to prevents and get rid of sludge

@eric whats wrong with my fram tough gaurd? lol

 

[Erics5th]

I think the Tough Guards are ok. The regular Frams suck. When I used to have my slant sixed '72 Satellite, I lost 10 psi 1,000 miles into an oil change. I replaced with a Purolator filter, and magicly got the pressure and a little more back. I have read a lot of studies online (like on Bobistheoilguy.com, etc) that have done oil filter studies, and all have concluded that Fram's are no good. Quality has gone down hill with them. Like I said, Purolator, Wix (Napa Gold and there Silver lines are Wix) and Baldwin are good filters: Any one of those will give you good protection. :wave:

 

[YY1]

I picked up a 5+ qt valvoline syn blend and a Toughgard filter for $25 on sale yesterday.

No opinion on Gunk?

How about STP?

Rislone?

 

[slant6billy]

Back in late 1988, my dad and I got a 77 aspen coupe with and auto super 6 for my sister. The previous owner stated it was "serviced" at his shop regularly. That guy was a good politician too. Anyway a month later, the oil light came on and we were in trouble. My dad and I rebuilt the top end that Saturday and it was ok for about another month. So we took it into a friend's shop to drop the pan. Golf balls of sludge and the oil filter was new. So the dude was just throwing in anything - used oil and crap to that poor Aspen. He put the new filter on to throw us off. Nice guy- again. So new oil pump later - my sister was good to go. Crashing into everything she possibly could. 4 years and multiple bodyshops later motor was going strong. Finally, a bad t- boning did the aspen in- still ran even bent in half at the doors. The oiling system is unique in a mopar- probably envied by some German car company and copied by a Japan car co- attempted anyway. Now I want to think hi detergent is great on destroying gunk and sludge, but gaskets too on those older motors. I've gotten top end blow by on my 94 Jeep Grand ZJ with a 5.2 b/c I thought I put in conventional oil, but screwed up and put in full synth in a different style bottle- becareful and read the label folks.

 

[Mroldart2u]

By guessing it had been short tripped a lot, and oil changes neglected. To prevent this from happening again, try not to short trip and do routine maint religiously. That will prevent 90% of sludge forming. And yes quaker,penz, and others that were non-detergent oils were bad about it. Speaking of which does anyone remember the stench that the old Havoline (Texaco) motor oil produced? What a god awful smell.... dont know what was in it to cause it but man o man was it bad, during a tear-down.

 

[77kickinaspen]

to awnser ur question those are bunk no good use the engine foam u wont regret it i also with evrey oil chainge i like to thickin it a lil by throwing in some motor honey or stp oil treatment

 

[ramenth]

By guessing it had been short tripped a lot, and oil changes neglected. To prevent this from happening again, try not to short trip and do routine maint religiously. That will prevent 90% of sludge forming.

Exactly.

What folks fail to understand is that operating temperature is important.

If you do a lot of short trips (car not fully warmed up) the oil needs to be changed more frequently. Usually at the 2000 miles mark, not much beyond that.
Take a look inside the oil fill cap of an engine. You'll be able to tell the ones that have been short tripped, those are the ones with unburnt and unfiltered contaminates sticking on the cap. Usually looks like a yellowish mush.

There is an old school way of flushing an engine that works well. But you have to be careful when you're doing it.

4 qts oil with 1 qt kerosene. Crank the car, but do not rev it. Let it reach operating temp and idle for another ten or fifteen minutes. Immediately drop the oil and filter. Refill.

 

[dusterdan]

everybody has pretty much answered the question with some good knowledge but as Erics5th said, Penzoil and Quaker Mistake used to be notoriously known for sludge, primarily because they were waxed based products....everything is different nowadays but the remanants are still in your motor obviously....treatments like seafoam, slick50 etc should help and keep changing the oil regularly (no need to spend $6/quart on full synthetic unless you're revving high or towing). Best of luck

 

[ramenth]

everybody has pretty much answered the question with some good knowledge but as Erics5th said, Penzoil and Quaker Mistake used to be notoriously known for sludge, primarily because they were waxed based products....everything is different nowadays but the remanants are still in your motor obviously....treatments like seafoam, slick50 etc should help and keep changing the oil regularly (no need to spend $6/quart on full synthetic unless you're revving high or towing). Best of luck

Except the problem with a lot of additives is that they'll break loose the sludge without breaking it down.

Can you say clogged pick-up screen?

 

[Mroldart2u]

Can you say clogged pick-up screen?

Or worse...

 

[slant6billy]

Yes worse.... the ZJ was sport'n 80 psi on the way to the trade for the shorty van. How with a blow by top end? I figure the goopy mess was in the pan and lodged in the screen good.
I am prejudiced against Castrol, Pennsoil, Quakerstate, and no-name oil. a lot of Wax fillers and other stuff my dad used to call it "oil leak in a bottle" in them.

 

[qurtuba]

Hi guys...Lots of great info here.

If I may, I would like to pick your collective brains here a bit. I enjoy my 77 Volare with it's stock 318 mainly as a second car (when the other brand B is in the shop, which is a lot), but in any case I don't drive it normally more than 3000 miles a year (home-work-home).

Because sometimes it sits in the garage for a couple of weeks or even more, I sometimes take it out just to change the oil and filter, drive around a bit, then back in the garage. Lately I have been driving it a lot though, changed the oil/filter back in February and it's still not up to 1000 miles yet.

I use a mineral oil recommended by a mechanic friend of mine called Liqui-Moly (20w50 in the summer as temps are over 40C regularly, but I change to Castrol Magnatec 10w40 in the more pleasant temps of winter.

So does anyone have any recommendations or suggestions as to what I could do in terms of maintenance to keep sludge and carbon buildup from messing up my engine?
And what is this Seafoam everybody seems to swear by? First time I hear about it.

Thanks and cheers!

 

[res1vw21]

Before I do an oil change I add a quart of ATF, doesn't matter if it's in an engine I run full synthetic in or no name brand stuff. I then drive it down to my shop (45 min away on the freeway being easy on the engine) drain the oil out/drop the filter still hot and let it drain for a few hours while working on something else. Refill and away I go. My 110xxx+ mi 318 that I installed in my swinger a little while ago is starting to have much better looking oil on the dipstick. Of course the rings are shot so I have to add oil in that one as apposed to changing it.

 

[Erics5th]

qurtuba, I also put few miles a year on my 5th (only about 1200 last year). I just changed the oil with around 1500 total miles since last oil change. Living in a warm area (like you) I don't have to worry about condensation, but you still get caustic contaminants in the oil that need to be gotten out of the oil pan. Here is a link to Seafoam...http://www.seafoamsales.com/

 

[ramenth]

qurtuba, I also put few miles a year on my 5th (only about 1200 last year). I just changed the oil with around 1500 total miles since last oil change. Living in a warm area (like you) I don't have to worry about condensation, but you still get caustic contaminants in the oil that need to be gotten out of the oil pan. Here is a link to Seafoam...http://www.seafoamsales.com/

I'd disagree about the condensation issue. You get it, mainly from temp swings (hot during the day, 10*-20* drop over night), just not as prevalent as I might get it (30* or more sometimes, especially this time of the year.)

With the discussion of additives, etc, I would say the main thing is to research your brand of oil. Through an independent firm, not through the companies' websites.

A good oil shouldn't need anything extra poured into the engine along with an oil change. I have my brand preferences, which really isn't here or there. Just experience and some research.

Lukas, Seafoam (I use it for intake and injector cleaning through my shop), Slick 50, Stay Together Please, all shouldn't matter as long as:

Your engine is in good condition. All the additives on the market doesn't make up for worn rings, a weak pump, etc.

You allow your car to reach operating temperature on a regular basis. I'm not talking short blasts or even driving it, but letting it idle up to temp at least once a week will help engine life in a car that sits in storage for long periods.

I'll give you an example. My business partner's wife's 2000 Mustang convertible sits all winter long. My partner wanted to put it in storage this winter behind a bunch of equipment (mowers, the loader, even a couple of 4wheelers) where I'd have a hard time getting to it. When he first suggested where he was going to park it I protested. His thing was "well it will have a battery tender on it."

"Lew," I said, "I could care less about the battery. It's the engine I'm worried about."

The car has less than 30,000 miles on it. I then explained to him how the machined surfaces of the engines can, and will, draw moisture and start rust pitting causing bearings and rings to run on that rust, wearing them out prematurely. Oil needs to be pumped to those areas, and months of sitting with oil (even the best oil) draining back into the pan due to gravity will cause premature engine damage. Seals need to stay swelled, machined surfaces should have as much coating as clearances will allow. That, and as stated through the thread here, contaminates need to be passed through the filter and/or burnt off.

So, my ritual is to start the car once a week and give it a long idle time. I'll be the one who has to rebuild the engine (Lew really knows nothing about cars outside brakes and suspension) if something goes wrong.

 

[Mroldart2u]

Agree for the most part, except the real temp swings aren't really weather/moisture related, but related to the temp swings the engine goes thru AFTER start up... Start up run for 4-5 minutes shut off for hours, It can produce its 'own' moisture just by design. You have all heard of an engine is just an air pump, and for those with air compressors know what I mean by creating it own moisture. Why else do you have to drain the tank of compressor from time to time? You sure arent running it under water... The relative atmospheric moisture content in the air is SOMEWHAT a contributing factor but not all. So let the vehicle get to operating temps for @ least 10 minutes to help 'dry' things out. (internally) MHO

 

[Erics5th]

One thing Lubbock does not have much of: Humidity. Plus, I keep the car in a garage year round, so temperature extrems are not much of an issue to me.