Vacuum lines, Carb kit, alignment, suspension - priority?

Justwondering

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
3,615
Reaction score
1,015
Location
North Texas
So I took the 87 Fifth Avenue and let my older brother drive it to give me his opinion.

He did lots with his cars in the early-mid 70's so I thought I'd find out what he thought.

His observations:
1. Doesn't think the OverDrive (OD) is kicking in correctly. Thinks a vacuum line is huffing or compromised in some way.

2. Felt like the engine was loping when we sat at the front gate waiting for it to open. Suggested maybe a carb kit.

3. There's vibration when you get it up to 65 mph. Maybe camber or toe-in. Thought there's something hinky with front end alignment or might need new tires.

4. Wondered about front suspension. Said to check the ball joints.

Also, I've had it fail to start for the past two mornings. Dead, no clicking. But battery shows fine on the display. I open the hood and fondle electric lines, reseat plugs, lift and check all the inline fuses; get back in the car and it starts right up. So, now I'm checking only a couple of things at a time to figure out what is causing the problem.

Anyway,
What order should I be working these issues? I have no clue which ones are hard/complicated and which ones are time consuming but straightforward.
 

Master M

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2014
Messages
330
Reaction score
116
1) I don't believe you have overdrive, but you probably have a lock-up convertor that locks up at about 39 mph. The loping at idle could be a lot of things. 2) a full tune up will help, if not done already. Rebuilding the carb could help if done properly and tuned properly. Is the idle speed set to specs ? Put a vacuum gauge on the engine at idle and post the results of it. 3) I would look at u-joints and improperly adjusted wheel bearings also. See if an alignment shop will check the front suspension at no charge, and tell you what they find. Have them show you what any issues may be. You may also have an ignition switch being intermittent at start up, which is inexpensive and fairly easy to install. There is one on Ebay for $4.99 and free shipping ( cheap insurance ). Just some ideas,hope this may help you out. Keep us informed of your progress.
 

BudW

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
5,121
Reaction score
1,486
Location
Oklahoma City
Overdrive automatics don't fit our cars without a lot of heavy persuasion (IE: torch and/or sledge hammer) and liquid encouragement.
The lock-up clutch feels about the same as when it shifts gears.

I pretty much agree with everything Master M said.
 

Justwondering

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
3,615
Reaction score
1,015
Location
North Texas
alrighty,
gives me a place to start.

Drove it at night for the first time this evening. Out an about but home 5 minutes til midnight
Used the heater for the first time... that will roast you..very powerful.

Only thing I noticed other than the above was the left side rear liscense light is out.
 

Darth-Car

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
880
Reaction score
351
Location
Ohio
That no start issue may just be the starter relay, under the hood, on the firewall, next to the power brake booster. An inexpensive upgrade for better starting reliability.

You could also have a flat spot in your starter motor. When the motor gets to that point, and you attempt to start it, all it will do is give one click. If this is the case it is time for a new starter. If you do not already have the Denso mini starter on your car, now would be the great time for the upgrade. They really are light weight compared to the old style Chrysler gear reduction units, and they will whip that engine around much faster than the old style starters.
 

Jack Meoff

Mopar Maniac
Joined
Jan 29, 2012
Messages
10,747
Reaction score
1,200
Location
Hogtown, Ontario
I also agree with Master M. Your loping at idle could easily be slack in your timing chain. They stretch over time and slop around a bit at idle which makes the idle a bit lumpy. Then when you hit the gas the slack gets taken up.

If you haven't already done it a full tune up does make a huge difference.
 

Justwondering

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
3,615
Reaction score
1,015
Location
North Texas
Okay .. realize this is my first 'tune up' so here goes:

This is my tune up list:
1. air filter (6 months old)
2. fuel filter (6 months old)
3. spark plugs - have not checked
4. spark plug wires - looks new, no cracks, no filth
5 distributor cap - looks new, no cracks, no filth
6. Liquids - checked oil, brake fluid, coolant, transmission fluid - did not check axle fluid
7. Vacuum lines - this is important, but i'm not quite sure which lines are the vacuum lines. I think there are two areas: pvc is fat tube at the bottom about 1/4 around from the choke vaccum diaphragm -- have not checked either one
8. Timing - clueless
9. Timing chain - clueless - from this thread I now know its important
--- Post updated ---
Oh my goodness ... page 9-17 from the chrysler service manual says:
Cover removal (lots of instruction - this seems very intimidating)
Measuring Timing Chain for Stretch (more instructions)

So is this manual telling me I have to remove the cover to check for stretch?
OR
Is checking for stretch independent of removing the cover?
 

Master M

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2014
Messages
330
Reaction score
116
1) Its not the age so much as the condition. Can you see light through it when you hold it up ?
2) Fuel filter depends on how clean the gas is getting to it.
3) Replace the spark plugs
4) I would replace unless you know the age or mileage they were put on.
5) Replace
6) I would change the axle fluid with Valvoline non synthetic.
7) Replace PCV valve. Use a vacuum gauge to help indicate a vacuum issue.
8) Timing light will help
9) timing chain replacement is a good idea, but will take awhile to do. Put a new water pump on if you decide to tackle it. It is mostly basic disassembly and assembly work.
10) Don't forget to replace the ignition coil for better performance. Check Rock Auto for the tune up parts. I did a complete tune up with spark plugs,wires,distributor cap/rotor,ignition coil for around $96.00 at Rock Auto. This would be alot easier if we all lived in the same neighborhood !!!
 

Justwondering

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
3,615
Reaction score
1,015
Location
North Texas
Well ...
I'm thinking that I can tackle the pvc valve and the axle fluid next.

My husband thinks all the regular things (air filter, plugs, wire, and distributor cap) were done about 2,000 miles ago (although thats about 2 1/2 years ago). Just before the dad backed into the front end.

So I'm thinking I'll check everything and get my list of purchases ready for next month.

I made a deal with the local mechanic that I'll swap out everything needed to get the air conditioning converted and he will check my work before loading it with r134a. I'll ask him to check the timing and give me his opinion on suspension and 'tune up' needs as well.

He's been very good about letting me try to wrench things and then for a nominal amount double checking me and 'tweaking' any issues I have/create.

You know, Master M, Texas welcomes lots of folks everyday. Plenty of land out here near me.
--- Post updated ---
Oh lordy ... do I have some stories from this continuing saga. I only got to 1/3 of the engine compartment today-passenger side.

I have pictures as well, but have to post them later...

So what is the empty port on the selenoid at the center of the firewall, near the top? Whatever it is, my windshield wiper fluid bottle line was connected to that instead of the connector in the underside of the hood for the water dispensor to the windshield.

There where 2 cracked vacuum lines coming off the vapor canister and a cracked line at the vent bowl.
Some goodness-knows-what animal was living under the coolant overflow bottle and behind the vapor canister. Gross, nasty, I sputter with indignant remarks....

I also need another overflow bottle. The bolt that goes through the side of it through the frame so you can lock it in with a nut was completed rusted and would not release. There is now a 2 inch crack in the bottle and the rusted bolt can be held still so the nut can be backed off.

More later... gotta get to town to pick up chain saws before the place closes.

Good news for me, the car still runs even after my tribulations today.
 

BudW

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
5,121
Reaction score
1,486
Location
Oklahoma City
The pictures I saw, the distributor cap and plug wires do appear to be almost new, so I would assume the distributor rotor and spark plugs are in same condition (but unseen in picture). These ignition components are effected more my mileage, than by time.
I think you are good on these items.

The ignition timing is adjusted by the ELB (Electronic Lean Burn) and is, for the most part, not needed to be adjusted (you can adjust the timing, but the computer will adjust it back to where it wants to – so a losing battle).

The PCV valve is not a difficult job, per se. The “if” is the hardness of the valve cover grommet (that PCV valve goes into) and the hardness of the hose that attaches to the PCV valve.

Sometimes both rubber items can be hard as a rock and therefore brittle and/or difficult to remove valve from either. The rubber grommet should be firm and pliable but still allow valve to pop in/pop out without too much difficulty. If you have to fight it, them something going to give (ie: break).

If any parts are needed:
PCV grommet 3751510 (may also be available under HELP section of parts store)
Crankcase vent grommet 2946079 (a common part for part stores)
PCV hose (19” long) – not sure of the diameter – but if to guess I would guess 1/4”.

I would suggest - if you need to replace this hose, to make sure hose is laid out so there are no kinks in it. Any kinks in hose will make PCV system inoperative and engine will let you know it quickly. Use a thick wall hose, if replacing!

My ’86 5th has 70k miles on it and grommet (and hose) was still pliable – so you might not have any problems.

I have worked on a lot of 318’s that took a jackhammer, a forklift and/or a stick of dynamite to remove the PCV valve from grommet, Others, were nothing but pieces of both remaining.

I have a couple of spare coolant bottles. Not grade A prime parts, but should last for another 10-15 years or so (my guess). Note: If you have A/C lines off to flush, then a great time to change the bottle. It is kinda held captive under those hoses.

20160506_170034.jpg
 
Last edited:

Justwondering

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
3,615
Reaction score
1,015
Location
North Texas
Bud - would you send a bottle my way. This would be a difficult jbweld to fix. I'm going to try to fix it but I'm not holding my breath.

So lets begin the day's saga....
Here are the tree limbs and ash tree volunteers coming up that I cut and hauled up the road to the goat pen cause I don't need anymore biomass fuel laying around on the property.
IMG_4179.jpg


The engine bay before I started ... notice those two fine looking, brand new a/c ports!
And notice the two yellow arrows?
IMG_4182.jpg

Those two yellow arrows ... are showing you a 1/4 inch vacuum line from the washer bottle to the left. The termination should be on a connector located on the underside of the hood. So the water can get out of the bottle, through the line and onto the window.

Instead, my washer bottle line is connected to a port on that firewall... What the heck?
Good thing I have not filled the bottle with liquid or I would have been dumping water into that port.

Here is where the line should have been:
IMG_4190.jpg

The white connector about in the middle of the picture, just at the bottom of the hood.

Another view of the engine compartment:
IMG_4186.jpg


I removed the washer bottle and found this lovely mess.
IMG_4189.jpg

Whats frustrating is last week I already swept this filth off. This happened last night. Some nasty mouse got back in there and ate an evening snack of stale acorns...

I'm going back to moth balls in a plastic bottle and see if I can keep them out. Just have to remember to remove the bottle before I drive too far.

IMG_4194.jpg

This sad situation is a rusted bolt with a rusted nut on the back side of the coolant overflow tank. Yes, I had to bust it to get it out. There was no room to cut the nut off since it was blocked by the front metal behind the header panel.
--- Post updated ---
As we continue to the vapor canister:
IMG_4195.jpg

This is the black round coffee can shaped under the coolant overflow tank. What? You don't recognize it because I cleaned the black filth and crap behind it.. Yes, that is actually silver paint. I do not know what was living behind the canister and under the coolant bottle but they had one fine looking nest in there.
Not anymore!
Notice the fine looking set of cracks on the line to the left. You could only see them if you removed the canister and looked on the underside.

IMG_4196.jpg

This was the only hose on the canister that I kept. Both the the ends were different sizes and it had very attractive red markings on one side.. Looked like a specialty hose.
IMG_4201.jpg

IMG_4202.jpg

IMG_4203.jpg


I did replace one other vacuum hose that went from the bottom, front of the carb up and around to the driver side to a rusted port .... the line and the rusted port are at the yellow arrows in this picture:

IMG_3962-witharrows.jpg


So here is the finished 1/3 of the engine compartment:
IMG_4212.jpg

And yes I removed rust and spot painted the metal.
--- Post updated ---
Which leads me to my next few questions..
1. How do you get the small lines at the back of the carb lose from the t-connector? I didn't want to break the connector but jeeze they don't want to come loose.

2. Do I really use just plain vacuum tubing for the engine hose replacements that are 1/4 inch-- like the tubing in the package I was sold that says 'for windshield washer'?

3. I'm looking at page 7-7 of the service manual and there is no indication how to remove belts; just plenty of information on how to tension them properly. The dually has a tensioner pulley to move so you can take off the serpentine. So for this novice lady, am I supposed to release and move the alternator bracket so I can remove my a/c compressor? (remember I'm backflushing and swapping oil to convert the cooling system over to r134a).

4. Should I replace the hose from the canister in the above pictures, the one with the pretty red spots on it? It looked to be in good shape, but 'you should change out your hoses' has been commanded and I'll need a part number if that one is coming out.

5.There is oil residue in two places: 1) around the opening where you put oil in the crankcase(?) and 2) dripping from the vacuum pump on the back rear firewall (next to the starter relay?). I assume the oil on the crankcase is from the previous person adding oil without a funnel. There is also mice pills and flaking black paint in that area and just above there under the edge of the carb. How do I clean that?
--- Post updated ---
Took the fifth out for a 50 mile trip. Much improved!

There was no stalling at stop signs or rolling through yields. Only once did it die, when I was backing into a parking space at the shopping center.

Only took 2 or 3 pumps of the gas pedal to start right up this morning (instead of 6 to 9).

All this with only 1/3 of the lines reviewed. Hooray!

Next week I convert the a/c and then back to this thread as I complete the hose changes.
 

BudW

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
5,121
Reaction score
1,486
Location
Oklahoma City
The white washer fluiid hose connector (under hood) is not the correct one. That white connector is a “one size fits most” replacement - but if it works then no need to change it.

What did you use to make your washer bottle sparkle? I might have to send a huge box your way, just to make use of your cleaning processes (I can get things clean, but not where it sparkles).

Sometimes vacuum hoses are color coded from factory, like the red/orange dashed one you have, to aid the assembly of vehicle.

The vacuum hose (with the two yellow arrows) goes to the ELB (Electronic Lean Burn) computer. The hose connects to a sensor (the rusty round thing pointing to the cruise control servo) that tells the ELB computer how much load to engine is present and it adjusts the ignition timing accordingly.


Question 1.
Can you take a picture of said item?

Generally, I will take a small flat screwdriver and get behind the rubber hose and base of whatever hose is attached, and pry hose in direction hose needs to come off of. Most cases, it works fine.

If replacing the hose, you can take a knife and make a small cut in hose parallel to the hose and twist.

A vacuum hose not wanting to come off – is doing its job (yea!).


Question 2.
Hoses under pressure are reinforced to make sure they do not blow up under said pressure. Washer and vapor hoses are not under much pressure. Vacuum hoses are under a different kind of pressure (a lack of it) and need to be thicker to keep hose from collapsing from the vacuum and to keep from getting kinked. A vacuum hose works great for washer fluid – but is a bit of overkill.


Question 3.
"age 7-7 of your ’87 service manual" will not be the same page of most other service manuals (page number is useless unless everyone here has the same year manual to use.

Your car has 4 different drive belts on it. A “matched” pair for A/C and Alternator. One each for A.I.R. pump and P/S pump.

The P/S pump has four mounting brackets, two each for engine and pump. The front most bracket on P/S pump has a ½” square (see white circle - in picture) on it that allows a ½” drive ratchet (or ratchet and extension) to attach to it to assist tightening the P/S belt. There are two bolts (9/16" head, I think) that are have a red line (pivot bolt - in picture) and blue circle (adjustment bolt - in picture) – both need to be loosened a couple of turns, and pump belt should go slack when loose enough.

The A.I.R. pump also has a bracket with a ½” square for ratchet for adjustment. I do not know off of the top of my head on what bolts to loosen for adjustment (two, I think).

The Alternator has an 9/16” bolt head close to A/C compressor and a ½“ bolt head close to fender to loosen for that belt adjustment. Having the correct tool to tighten the alternator belt is most helpful, but other devices could be used. Just be careful not to break anything...

While the alternator belt off, makes getting to the fuel filter a much easier job (you can swing the alternator up and out of your way (FYI).


Question 4
The term “change your hoses” mainly is meant to radiator and heater hoses. If those were to burst, you could be stranded in a dark alley somewhere without much to do (other than break out the tennis shoes and start walking).
If your vacuum or vapor hoses are not cracked, or hard (otherwise pliable) then there is no reason to change.
If hard, cracked/split, then it needs to be done.


Question 5
Need better pictures/not sure what is being referred to.

Note: I love the yellow arrows. You need to show me how to insert those babies.

BudW

87 Drive Belts.GIF


Alt tention tool.GIF


Alt tention tool.  mine looks different.GIF


6 cyl PS pump.GIF


from my 77 SM.  yours may be different.GIF


AIR and PS pumps.GIF


stolen from ebay.jpg
 
Last edited:

Justwondering

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
3,615
Reaction score
1,015
Location
North Texas
BudW - I give you two bouquets today!!

You've put my mind at ease that I'm doing the correct thing.
I get what you are saying about the manual and pages. Its frustrating for me since I grew up reading how-to books with a good index and cross-reference pages. There are none for these manuals. The assumption is I should know where to look for the parts -- this hose is part of the emissions system so I tell you there but no where do I tell you where all the hoses are.

Course it is a service manual. There's probably a separate - everything in the car manual.

Sparkle ... that is too cute for words.

As you can tell, I'm just a tad bit outgoing. I was in a class at school and the instructor introduced me to a substitute teacher in another class as 'shy, retiring and fawn-like' -- the whole class burst out laughing.

I should change my handle to Sparkle -- have to ask joey about that ... lol

Dawn xtra strength dish washing detergent on things I could take out of the engine compartment. I think things just look cleaner compared to the 2/3rds of the engine compartment that I left filthy.

Put mothballs in there this afternoon.

So there is a 1/4 vacuum hose I should use which is thicker walled than the 1/4 inch windshield washer line. I'll check down at the farm co-op on Monday.

After the weather moves through here on early next week, I'll be easing the tension on the compressor belt so I can move it out of there and flush, new oil, new parts and get this a/c charged back up.

Today, it was like driving a different car No dying at stoplights or yield signs. Twice i backed up into a parking spot and it only died 1 time. But I still need to check the fuel lines and the other 2/3 of the vacuum hoses. Its also probably pushed the good gas through the lines and fuel filter. Sure seems peppier!
 

80mirada

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2012
Messages
1,580
Reaction score
627
Location
Wisconsin, Fort Atkinson
If you are leaking fluid at the vacuum booster behind the brake master cylinder, it is probably brake fluid. That would mean you need a new master cylinder. It is possible to be something else, but not likely
 

Justwondering

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
3,615
Reaction score
1,015
Location
North Texas
black goo dripping down ... I have a picture ..
IMG_3630.JPG


In a previous post, captn said it looked like oil from the vacuum motor. So I'm just now following up.
 

Justwondering

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
3,615
Reaction score
1,015
Location
North Texas
agreed. I'm still learning what everything is called. I've got the passenger side of the engine compartment cleaned. Working on the center next weekend. So it will be another 14 days or so before I check out this problem. Its all an adventure.
 

BudW

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
5,121
Reaction score
1,486
Location
Oklahoma City
The item you call a “What is this tube with a screw that has oil leaking?” is part of your transmission kickdown linkage.

To demonstrate, the next time you are under the hood, remove the large paper air inlet hose from air cleaner, and the wing nut. Then pick up on the air cleaner assembly a couple of inches.

Then find part identified by the red arrow in picture, place a finger (or two) and press that rod/stud (pointing towards Left Fender) back towards the firewall about 3-4 inches (with car off). What you just did was work the carburetor by hand - as if your foot pressed down on gas.

Next find the metal linkage going towards firewall from the stud. Push the front part of that linkage back about 3-4 inches. It might move the throttle stud a bit - but no worries. That linkage travels through a bell crank with a downwards action at rear of engine. There is another bell crank under the car that makes a rearward action to a lever on transmission.

It would be hard to do - but if you can imagine you were cruising down the road at say 40 MPH (with hood up and you standing by left fender) and you could move that kickdown linkage (only) rearward, the transmission would downshift from 3rd gear down to 2nd gear (or maybe down to 1st) gear, but sense the throttle is not doing it, the car wouldn’t jump in speed.

That rod has no oil or grease to it for it operates dry. The oil you see, is coming from the wiper motor gearbox. The grease in the wiper motor has liquidified and is now leaking. I don’t know if it is worth the effort to fix. I would clean up the wiper motor and linkage and that problem might go away.

I took a couple pictures of my ‘77 wagon. It has mostly the same setup, but engine is blue (not black) and firewall is easier to see. Actually the very first time I had the air cleaner body off of this car.

One of the things I discovered tonight is I have been victim of the EGR Valve gremlin (see thread Pinging).
Honest, I didn’t do it (um, this time . . . add eyeroll here). Someone went through the trouble to ziptie the hose to the EGR valve (a lot more work than I would have done). See white circle (EGR Valve) and white arrow (vacuum hose port)

Note: Vehicles with ELB do not use a vacuum amplifier - so she does not have a “vacuum amplifier” on her car.

BudW

20160508_003238.jpg


20160508_003438.jpg
 

Justwondering

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
3,615
Reaction score
1,015
Location
North Texas
BudW....
Amazing the knowledge you have.. and my eternal thanks for sharing.

You have lovely circles and arrows ;)

How come some of the engines are painted blue and others aren't? Your's looks like the paint is in much better shape than mine.

When I get to that side of the engine compartment, I'll do as you say and give everything a cleanup. The wipers worked yesterday when I tried out the washer fluid in the drive and on the road.

Gonna rain here today they say. Hope it stays well south of you or north of you if the winds kick in.
 
Back
Top