black trans fluid

slant6billy

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Is trans fluid supposed to be BLACK and has the viscosity of water? Well, that is what I saw today. Not my vehicle and THANK GOD for that. My friend from highschool asked for some help identifying a trans problem on Facebook. There are a lot of car folks on my highschool's page. So I gave my rant about fluids being brand specific and that most universal fluid is built for GM. This guy had a 94 Ford. I went with my syphon to transfer as much we could so not to fight the weight of the pan. The old stuff was black and would not "take" to being syphoned .... it was too watery. Finally got a 2 quart amount out and added that amount back in with new type "F". What a DIFFERENCE. I a few weeks I 'll do a full fluid change on it. This had the original fluid from 1994 and had 166K on the OD.

Anyone seen who makes this BLACK trans fluid?
 

NoCar340

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It's burnt. Burnt to death.

Side note: that transmission should use Dexron/Mercon, not Type F if memory serves. I don't honestly know if it'll make much difference, but I'm pretty sure Type F went away in the late '80s. Anything's got to be better than burnt fluid with a bunch of condensation in it, though.
 

kkritsilas

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No. If the transmissions are from 1994, the correct fluid is Mercon III, or Mercon V if you want to use a full synthetic. Dextron or type F is specifically not permitted in my 1993 Lincoln Mark VIII's owner's manual. The facotry original fluid was Mercon III. There was a factory bulletin in 1997/1998 for the Mark VIII that recommended going to Mercon V, as in the Mark VIII, the fluid tended to run hot. I changed over the Mercon V, and added a transmission fluid cooler (biggest one they had) as well. There is something about the pre-1995/1996 Ford 4RW70 transmissions that makes them run hot in general, but in the case of the Mark VIII, 280-300 HP in a 3700 lbs. car that encouraged fast driving just make the problem worse.

Kostas

P.S. The Mark VIII is an odd car by anybody's standards. Stretched T-Bird chassis, forged aluminum front suspensio pieces, air-ride suspension that really did work well, DOHC 4.6L, 4 valves/cylinder all alumium V8 (what would end up in the later Mustang Cobra), IRS, electronic traction control, and a few other things. Oddest of all was the cooler for the power steering. No factory transmission cooler, but one for the power steering. Only the Ford engineers know why.
 

NoCar340

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Dex/Merc is Mercon III spec, at least the bottle I have in the garage says it is. I dunno. Ford did great with Type F for decades. Then they started changing their fluid specs like most people change their underwear. I know that in the hydraulically-actuated era, Mopar transmissions last longer, work better, run cooler and are generally just more lovable when filled with Type F rather than Mopar fluid or Dexron II/III. Stock transmissions that call for +4 have to have that fluid, but when it comes to a $10,000 diesel 68RFE (I'm not kidding--that was the cost of just the transmission), SunCoast demands you use Dexron or they will void your warranty. This is strange, because the same Alto Red Eagle clutches used in the SunCoast are the same as so many Mopar HP trans kits, which do better with the Type F. :eusa_think: It's got to be something with the hydraulic properties in the electronically-controlled transmissions.
 

kkritsilas

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All of the manufacturers have gone a little bit crazy with their fluids. At one time, there were only two: Dexron and Type F. Then out started coming out the Mercons, ATF +3/4,Dextron II/IID/III/VI, and the imports (Asian and European) also seem to have their own as wall.

I used ATF+4 when I changed the tranny fluid in the J bodies. Seems to work fine. Owners manual calls out ATF+3 (some long combination of numbers and letters).

Kostas
 
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NoCar340

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ATF+3 didn't exist in '83, but the Mopar OE fluid number superseded to it. Type F/FA works much better than anything else in Mopar transmissions prior to the advent of electronic solenoids. I actually think all these fluid changes by the various manufacturers are band-aids on broken legs; transmissions didn't become an issue for really anyone until people didn't want to feel their automatics shift anymore. The only way to do that is to slip the hell out of the clutches & bands during gear changes, which introduces wear much more quickly. I think the newer spec fluids are designed to combat that effect.

Personally, I don't want buttery-smooth shifts, I want to feel my transmission working as it should. Give me an A727 with Type F and the line pressure cranked up, and you can keep the accumulator spring.
 

slant6billy

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Thanks for the feedback guys....even though this was not an FMJ, it is good info. Actually, after looking back, the one bottle was type F and the other was Ford Mercon. Advance auto shelf mismatch. I did not catch the difference. I'll be draining the black stew in a few weeks. An old drag racer trick was to use the type F in a slipping trans b/c the friction particle was in the fluid. Cheap mans trick shift (made by B&M). A quart of F in my pretty tired F mopar trans it is.
 

ramenth

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Do yourself a favor: pull a trans cooler hose off and use the pump to pump it all out. It only takes a few seconds with the car running. Flush it with a cheaper fluid, like Dex/Merc and repeat. Then drop the pan once it's all emptied out. It'll also purge the converter of all the crap that's built up in it.

Personally, if it came through my shop, I'd be upgrading to Merc V.
 

R/T Mirada

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Pics of my black pan of death from the trans I pulled out of my 81 Mirada. PO connected the cooler lines together and let it do its own Chernobyl style melt down The color and smell of the fluid along with the shuddering on acceleration and slippage between gear changes and leaks. was more than enough warning to change.
black pan of death.jpg


and no that isnt a fur coat the pan magnet is wearing,its the metal particles from the internals as it was self destructing
black pan of death 2.jpg


black pan of death.jpg


black pan of death 2.jpg
 

NoCar340

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Looks like an A500 pan, epsecially with the magnet being there. Was the pickup lowered to accomodate the deeper sump?
 

R/T Mirada

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No. Its a ruined stock A-904, the replacement used 904 has the magnet also. Minus the blackness and metal shavings
 

kkritsilas

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I'm pretty sure the A500 and A904 pans interchange, as do the A727 and A518 pans. They are the same beloved transmssions with an overdrive stuck onto the end, with electrical lines to activate the overdrive and torque converter lock up.

Kostas
 

slant6billy

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Over the counter trans filter / gasket kits will come with 2 gaskets. one for the A500/904 and the other A518/727. Oddly, my A518 in my 94 Jeep grand Cherokee did not have a magnet in it when I dropped it. Someone called the opposite side starter A518 the left handed bastard in that jeep, since the motor and trans were useless in any other car. The 4.7 jeeps are the same way with the starter on the passenger side.
 

slant6billy

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Thanks. That sounds like the ticket. Do this cold? Or would operating temp be OK? I guess If I have cheap fresh fluid on an I/V pole and flowing down the fill tube, it should be ok. My sister ran her Aspen SE super 6 dry of trans fluid and it was never the same. Ever since, I'm a "half full or no less than half full" when it comes to trans fluid. Too much fluid blew my trans in my 76 Volare back in the 80s.
 

ramenth

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Thanks. That sounds like the ticket. Do this cold? Or would operating temp be OK? I guess If I have cheap fresh fluid on an I/V pole and flowing down the fill tube, it should be ok. My sister ran her Aspen SE super 6 dry of trans fluid and it was never the same. Ever since, I'm a "half full or no less than half full" when it comes to trans fluid. Too much fluid blew my trans in my 76 Volare back in the 80s.

You can do the initial pump out cold. Unhook the pressure side cooler line and put it in a large drain pan. Crank the car until there's no more fluid coming out. This'll pump out the converter, too. Fill with the cheap fluid of choice (Dex/Merc will work). Then treat it like a normal service. Run it to temp, shift through the gears, etc. Then repeat by pulling the pressure side cooler line again, cranking the engine until it's all pumped out. Then you can pull the pan and change the filter without taking a bath. Refill with the superseded Merc V. (It's silly not to at this stage. With the exception of the 727 in the Dip [the Dip has Type F in it since it's a "built" transmission] I've changed every stock Mopar in the family over to AFT4 and every Ford over to Merc V. The old man is saying the 270,000 mile old trans in his '92 Aerostar has never shifted better since the switch.)

If I remember rightly there's a band adjustment for the OD on this transmission. Check out an FSM if you can.

Don't worry about running the trans dry doing this. If anything you'll only be running it for a few seconds at the "dry" stage and over the years, the clutches and bands are soaked enough not to take damage after a few seconds. If you're really worried about it, have your buddy hang in the window and have him shut it down when you see there's no more fluid coming out.

Just dropping the pan will only drop out about four or five quarts. How much bad fluid is left in the lines, the cooler, the converter? Kind of useless to refill with four-six quarts when there's another six or so of the old crap still left in the trans.

I've been doing this for years in my own shop. I never had the money for a "flush" machine (which circulates new while pulling out the old). Believe it or not, this is actually in the FSM for Hyundai as most modern Hyundai transmissions don't have a pan, just a drain plug which only allows for four quarts to be drained out, with another 8 quarts left behind.

And cover your own ass on this. Let your buddy know this is only a shot at keeping the trans. After so many years of neglect and the fact the trans was having issues before, there's a better than 50/50 shot at having to replace the trans sooner rather than later. But, hey, spending a few bucks on new fluid and filter is worth the shot compared to automatically (forgive the pun) assuming the trans is done and spending the money on a good used one or rebuild.

I swear, most of the transmissions I've ever rebuilt were done simply because of neglect. Everyone remembers to change his or her oil every 3000 miles, but no one thinks of a trans service every 30K. Nope, don't think about it until the trans starts acting up then get in a panic because the car is now giving you issues.

And don't get me going on light truck and van owners who don't know how to tow properly.
 

Jack Meoff

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Robert....can I interject a question to you?
My Fifth Ave....I have no idea the last time the fluid was changed.
I've had the car for roughly four years and I've probably put around 20,000 miles on it at least....fluid is pink and doesn't smell burnt. I have an external cooler also. Shifts beautifully. Regardless of perceived condition of the fluid you recommend changing it? I want to look after this baby and want to do the right thing.
Thank you for any advice.
 

ramenth

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Robert....can I interject a question to you?
My Fifth Ave....I have no idea the last time the fluid was changed.
I've had the car for roughly four years and I've probably put around 20,000 miles on it at least....fluid is pink and doesn't smell burnt. I have an external cooler also. Shifts beautifully. Regardless of perceived condition of the fluid you recommend changing it? I want to look after this baby and want to do the right thing.
Thank you for any advice.

I usually do routine maintenance on any used car I've bought, just to get it on my maintenance schedule instead of having to guess when the last time it was done. Unless the previous owner can show some kind of record for having done so. So, yes, I'd recommend doing it within a reasonable timetable, even if the fluid is clean and you have no issues with it.

Here's my guidelines for routine maintenance:

LOF every 3K (synthetics I take to 5K only after I've run it through at least a couple of times on any "non-working" engines. Before that it's usually at least 3k the first time. The 302 in my F150 gets a work out towing and hauling on the hills around here. I change it every 3K if I've worked the hell out it during the LOF intervals.)

Trans fluid, filter, and band adjustment (where applicable) at 30k.

New coolant with a back flush and new t-stat every 2 years, no matter the mileage.

New brake fluid every 2 years, no matter the mileage.

There's an easy way to keep track of all this, too. Get a clamshell of paper key tags, string or wire ties, doesn't matter, available at just about every office supply store. Write the mileage and the date on the paper and tie it around the brake line, next to the master cylinder, on the coolant overflow hose, the trans dipstick handle, etc. That way, every time you're under the hood you'll see the reminder for the next service date and mileage.
 

Jack Meoff

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I usually do routine maintenance on any used car I've bought, just to get it on my maintenance schedule instead of having to guess when the last time it was done. Unless the previous owner can show some kind of record for having done so. So, yes, I'd recommend doing it within a reasonable timetable, even if the fluid is clean and you have no issues with it.

Here's my guidelines for routine maintenance:

LOF every 3K (synthetics I take to 5K only after I've run it through at least a couple of times on any "non-working" engines. Before that it's usually at least 3k the first time. The 302 in my F150 gets a work out towing and hauling on the hills around here. I change it every 3K if I've worked the hell out it during the LOF intervals.)

Trans fluid, filter, and band adjustment (where applicable) at 30k.

New coolant with a back flush and new t-stat every 2 years, no matter the mileage.

New brake fluid every 2 years, no matter the mileage.

There's an easy way to keep track of all this, too. Get a clamshell of paper key tags, string or wire ties, doesn't matter, available at just about every office supply store. Write the mileage and the date on the paper and tie it around the brake line, next to the master cylinder, on the coolant overflow hose, the trans dipstick handle, etc. That way, every time you're under the hood you'll see the reminder for the next service date and mileage.

Great advice and good to know. Thank you very much. A little too arctic up here for me to do much of anything right now but as soon as it warms up a but I plan on changing pretty much every fluid except the coolant for now. I just put in a new rad this summer and drained everything and put in new coolant. But everything else is on the list including diff oil. Along with a full tune up. It's coming up on two years for that and I always do one every two regardless.
Thanks again.
 

MiradaMegacab

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I pull the MC reservoir and clean out the gunk that accumulates inside.
AntiFreeze and brake fluid flush every 5 years.
Rear diff change every 50,000.
Tranny change every 25,000 miles.
Full synthetic engine oil every 2,000 miles, as Im running boost.
ProCharger oil every 5,000
80/90w gear oil in Roots blower 5,000 miles.

1390346467556.jpg
 
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