Running a thermoquad on an 88 ELB conversion?

8v-of-fury

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Monkeyed said:
if it had been running like that the entire time, I'd have said maybe it was fueling ok off the primaries, and going ultra lean on the secondaries, and would recommend rejetting. since it was running better before, I'm more inclined to suspect that some other component has failed, or is in the process of.

Exactly, after the first day I got it together last week and drove it around.. there wasn't much of an issue. The slightest bog you could feel between the idle and primary circuit, but that was it.

Monkeyed said:
dumping extra fuel in cools the ignition charge, and a cooler charge isn't going to ignite as quickly, and will require less ignition advance. if you had your advance set for a lean condition with your vacuum leak, you may want to revisit your timing,

Interesting. I have it set to about 2.5* BTDC. I will try backing it down, and up some.
 

NoCar340

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Well, at this point I would almost think something has to be damaged: cracked intake, warped float bowl or throttle body, leaking brake booster, missing/open vacuum port or bad vacuum hose somewhere. Unless that manifold or carb has God's own personal warp in it, it should be sealed.

A/F ratios at, or lower, than stoichiometric (a.k.a. "rich", meaning they have a higher amount of fuel in them) are easier to light than those above stoich ("lean", where fuel concentration is lower than optimal). Any harder-to-light mixture requires more timing advance, which is why most folks would poop themselves if they saw where their timing is with the cruise set at 60MPH (it's often pretty close to, if not over, 50°BTDC with a stone-stock, factory-set ignition system). It's also why you can, and should, crank up a couple of extra degress of advance when using a well-designed cold-air intake--cold air makes for a denser charge regardless of A/F ratio, which means there's more of it to light. Denser mixtures are harder to light as well. The statement about extra fuel cooling the mixture and making it harder to light, while being somewhat technically correct since cooler air is further from its ignition point, is incorrect from the stoichiometric and practical standpoints since it actually makes combustion much easier.

The only thing worse than factory timing is retarding past it. You should be running a lot more advanced than 2.5°BTDC regardless. Factory timing is never optimal and the car should always be tuned beyond it while staying within the limits of use. The factory timing is always set for "some dumbass", meaning the engineers thought of everything reasonable until one of them piped up and said, "Some dumbass is going to try to pull a 35' travel trailer with six overweight passengers, a trunk full of lead, and a piano strapped to the roof up Pike's Peak in the middle of summer." Then they all nodded in agreement and backed off the timing another 5° to account for that guy. If you're not that guy, you need to toss the factory spec out the window and start anew... whether you're looking for better economy or more power.
 

8v-of-fury

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I only have it that low because the mechanical advance picks up very fast in this dizzy. With the light on it, it will be above 10* with very minimal throttle input.

It is only set so low at idle. Any higher and I can hear the vacuum advance ping at cruise and the mechanical ping at wot.

I pulled the carb, tore it all down don't see any issues internally.. fuel level looks low jn the bowls when you pull the lid.. but the floats are set right. The primary gaskets in the bowl are there and proper, everything seems legit in there. Top, bowl, and throttle plate all seemed pretty flat. No warping. Intake seemed to be pretty perfect albeit a bit corroded when I got it..

Blew everything out, made sure the accel pump has a good shot..

Tried timing from 10 after to easily 20 before. No dice.

Messed with the metering rod height. No dice. The only thing that makes it rev normal.. is having the choke plate closed a little...
 

ramenth

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The throttle plate shafts on the Thermobog have a habit of wearing the base plate and need to be bushed. Did you check for play or any wobble in the shafts?
 

Monkeyed

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Well, at this point I would almost think something has to be damaged: cracked intake, warped float bowl or throttle body, leaking brake booster, missing/open vacuum port or bad vacuum hose somewhere. Unless that manifold or carb has God's own personal warp in it, it should be sealed.

A/F ratios at, or lower, than stoichiometric (a.k.a. "rich", meaning they have a higher amount of fuel in them) are easier to light than those above stoich ("lean", where fuel concentration is lower than optimal). Any harder-to-light mixture requires more timing advance, which is why most folks would poop themselves if they saw where their timing is with the cruise set at 60MPH (it's often pretty close to, if not over, 50°BTDC with a stone-stock, factory-set ignition system). It's also why you can, and should, crank up a couple of extra degress of advance when using a well-designed cold-air intake--cold air makes for a denser charge regardless of A/F ratio, which means there's more of it to light. Denser mixtures are harder to light as well. The statement about extra fuel cooling the mixture and making it harder to light, while being somewhat technically correct since cooler air is further from its ignition point, is incorrect from the stoichiometric and practical standpoints since it actually makes combustion much easier.

The only thing worse than factory timing is retarding past it. You should be running a lot more advanced than 2.5°BTDC regardless. Factory timing is never optimal and the car should always be tuned beyond it while staying within the limits of use. The factory timing is always set for "some dumbass", meaning the engineers thought of everything reasonable until one of them piped up and said, "Some dumbass is going to try to pull a 35' travel trailer with six overweight passengers, a trunk full of lead, and a piano strapped to the roof up Pike's Peak in the middle of summer." Then they all nodded in agreement and backed off the timing another 5° to account for that guy. If you're not that guy, you need to toss the factory spec out the window and start anew... whether you're looking for better economy or more power.

thanks for the clarification. I knew the cooler charge my professors were talkimg about referred to combating pre-ignition, wasn't sure of the effect on timing. probably should have mentioned that, no harm in it though. I did think 2.5*BTDC was unusual, but since he was going to try changing it anyway..
 

jasperjacko

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:foshizzle:Heres a thought. In my experience, timing set that low requires you to have the idle screw turned in to get the rpm's up which in turn opens the throttle plate enough to where you are now having vac advance at idle and drawing fuel from the primary instead of the idle circuit alone. Put a vac gauge on the advance port and check for vac at idle. There should be none until you just start opening the throttle. Look in the the carb while idling. If you see gas dribbling into the carb, you're not on the idle circuit. You also mentioned the fuel level seemed low. You may need to adjust your float level to bring the fuel level up.
 
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jasperjacko

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It definitely wasn't that, (good thought though) it was only as i tightened it down and sealed the topside of the Carbonation Device.[/QUOTE] If the base is touching any linkages, it will show up when you tighten the nut.
 

8v-of-fury

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Timing light. But actually seeing you write that made me think of something. I checked for advance at idle already, the advance comes in fast as soon as the throttle plates come open.

Is there a minimum amount of turns out the mixture screws could be??
 

8v-of-fury

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You guys will never guess what the issue was.. The instructions I had on how to properly set the float level were confusing at best.. Definitely Chinese written lolol

I had the float the thickness of the float too low..! Jesus what a frig around. As can be seen, I had it set to spec, but at the wrong spot.. didn't even occur to me that it was wrong.

2014-06-06145836_zps35cd3da4.jpg

2014-06-06145114_zps12b91f58.jpg



So I set it to the proper setting for the float level, and lo-and-behold doesn't it run just as it should.. ?


2014-06-10123132_zps69a170a1.jpg

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5FZD7nkJVU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiFB2WPgH_8
 

8v-of-fury

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I'm thinking on driving it to Beaverton today on a day trip to see how the mileage does with the highway trippin. Seems to be better in town over all already. It has started reliably every-time, and has not had any weird bogging down issues since I got that sorted. These cars just should have been 4-bbl from factory..
 
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