8.25 vs. 8.75

brotherGood

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Ok, I already have an 8.25 with 2.9 gears I the car..but I'm up in the air as far as where to go from here. I'll be building a 360, sms hopefully picking up an OD. I want to be able to drive the car around town, and the occasional trip in the highway, but at the same time be quick enough to beat my father in law when he gets his new camaro. The common thought says to go to the 8.75, but I've heard people say they've used 8.25s behind very stout 360s, and even 440s. Anyone have any ideas here? Thanks
 

Master M

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Ok, I already have an 8.25 with 2.9 gears I the car..but I'm up in the air as far as where to go from here. I'll be building a 360, sms hopefully picking up an OD. I want to be able to drive the car around town, and the occasional trip in the highway, but at the same time be quick enough to beat my father in law when he gets his new camaro. The common thought says to go to the 8.75, but I've heard people say they've used 8.25s behind very stout 360s, and even 440s. Anyone have any ideas here? Thanks
Search this forum. FWIW, There was a really good thread on this topic. From what I remember the 8.25 had been used with good results in performance applications.
 

Grandmas84

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An 8.25 would be good up to 400-500 horse. I wouldnt drag race it though. Id run the 8.25 an be on the look out for a 8.75. B body 8.75s are getting real hard to find nowdays. Ive been looking for a few years now with no luck. And if i do find one i dont have the cash to shell out.
 

Mr C

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The 8.25 was used in C bodies and B bodies with the 400, so it's a pretty stout piece. It should be fine for your application as described above.
 

Cordoba1

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Which version of the Camaro is he getting? Depending on the configuration, it'll take an extremely stout 360 to win that match-up.
 

slant6billy

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Not jack the thread, but it comes down to power and money. the 8 1/4 was used in Jeeps, dakotas, and vans (my shorty 109 inch 2500 has one). Getting Sure grip in an 8 1/4 will be a decent search, but you can find them. 8 3/4 B body 62-70 are becoming reall big money. Add the sure grip an big jump $$$. There is argument of 742 verse 489 case. 489 is rebuild-able if you find a hurt one. The 742 is fine as long it just needs bearings. I have a 742 with 4:11 sure grip awaiting the day I break my 8 1/4. I'm actually going to throw a curveball: Ford 8.8 out of an explorer (Exploder) An XLT should be limited spin slip and you just need spring perches. My budy has one on a custom build power by a 500 inch caddy motor. He has 200 bucks into that ford rear. Parts is plenty on the Ford rear. I have to duck now as the rocks are coming at me.
 

brotherGood

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I've actually had that thought in my back pocket, as someone had suggested the 8.8 to me before. But I'm not sure how much more work thered be getting it into my car. And whether itd be worth it
 

brotherGood

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Which version of the Camaro is he getting? Depending on the configuration, it'll take an extremely stout 360 to win that match-up.

Not sure, but I doubt it'll be the SS. probably the base V8, maybe with a few more bells and whistles,
 

Aspen500

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The Explorer 8.8 would have the added benefit of rear disc brakes as well, if you consider that a benefit that is.
The '71 and newer B-body can fit by moving the spring perches in (think it was 1 1/2" per side) BUT, it's 3" wider which limits wheel selection. I have a '71 8 3/4" in my car and to fit 15x8 I had to get custom backspacing. Believe it was 5 1/2" backspace. Exactly the same as a 15x7 with an inch added to the inside. It BARELY will clear the fender lip with a 255/60R15 tire.
Not ideal but it's an option and those are easier to find yet, sort of.
 

Aspen500

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The Explorer 8.8 would have the added benefit of rear disc brakes as well, if you consider that a benefit that is.
The '71 and newer B-body can fit by moving the spring perches in (think it was 1 1/2" per side) BUT, it's 3" wider which limits wheel selection. I have a '71 8 3/4" in my car and to fit 15x8 I had to get custom backspacing. Believe it was 5 1/2" backspace. Exactly the same as a 15x7 with an inch added to the inside. It BARELY will clear the fender lip with a 255/60R15 tire.
Not ideal but it's an option and those are easier to find yet, sort of.
 

NoCar340

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I had to split my response into three sections, due to length. I'm not pickin' on ya, Billy... the board wouldn't take it all at once. :cool:
Not jack the thread, but it comes down to power and money. the 8 1/4 was used in Jeeps, dakotas, and vans (my shorty 109 inch 2500 has one). Getting Sure grip in an 8 1/4 will be a decent search, but you can find them.
It's worth mentioning that the splines changed from 27 to 29 in May of 1996, so a Sure Grip unit from an axle after that date will not fit an FMJ car without custom axles. Per the Direct Connection and Chrysler Drivetrain boys, the 8.25" axle is good for a real, live, dyno-proven 350HP. Beyond that, you're riding a time bomb. Well, more than usual, that is. The C-clips just randomly fall out and let the axle leave the car, which is why I won't run one under anything I value. I watched a driver's side axle walk out and destroy a lovely stupid-low-mile '73 Duster 340 survivor several years ago, and the guy was just cruising along at 45MPH, not goofing off or being an idiot. Said axle/wheel assembly damned-near took out the '70 Swinger 340 in which I was a passenger, too. I'm also not a fan of bearing rollers riding directly on the axle shaft, where a minor amount of metal from diff wear can turn them into a lathe.
 

NoCar340

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8 3/4 B body 62-70 are becoming reall big money. Add the sure grip an big jump $$$. There is argument of 742 verse 489 case. 489 is rebuild-able if you find a hurt one. The 742 is fine as long it just needs bearings. I have a 742 with 4:11 sure grip awaiting the day I break my 8 1/4.
Uh, the casting number has very little to do with rebuildability, but you've got it backward. Sorta. It comes down to whether it's got a clutch-type differential (Dana Powr-Lok) or a cone-type (Borg Warner Anti-Spin). The Powr-Lok is rebuildable by replacing the readily-available clutches. The Borg Warner diff uses cone clutches that are non-replaceable. The case wears equally with the cone clutches, so when it's shot it's shot... supposedly. More on that in a minute... [EDIT: More like an hour now!:D]
There are six center housings for 8.75" rear axles, all identified by their last three digits: 657, 985, 741, 742, 488 (rare), and 489. The basic differences are pretty simple:
  • 657/741: This is the "weak sister" of the bunch, with the 657 being used in light-duty applications from 1957-'64, when it was replaced with the 741 during a rolling change. The 741 was used 1964-'72 and was phased out with the A-body 8.75" axle. Both of these housings have a large "X" cast in the driver's side, halfway up. The pinion stem is a straight 1.375" shaft, hence the "weak sister" reference, being much smaller than those used in other cases. However, it's still considerably stronger than the 8.25" axle and the pinion stem is actually larger than the venerable 9" Ford's 1.25" stem (but that has three bearings on the pinion). Any 657 Sure Grip would have the desirable Powr-Lok. 741s built into model-year 1969, usually prior to January '69, should also have the clutch-type diff though I've never found one. Somewhere around that date, Chrysler switched to the Borg Warner-sourced Anti-Spin (cone-type/Auburn) diff. Bearings and the pinion seal are no problem for this axle; ring and pinion selection has gotten better over the past few years but it's still limited. Pinion-bearing preload is accomplished with shims. Finicky but superior. I'm still regretting selling my NOS 3.36:1 gears for this housing (used in '60-'61 only). They are absolutely perfect for an A833OD application in terms of ratio spread and final drive. Chances are, unless you're in the 10s with a 4-speed you're never going to hurt this center section.
  • 985/742: The beast. The 985 casting was used from 1957-'65, though for some reason in '61 the 742 case came online and would stay until late in the '68 model year. These housings have the 1.75" stepped straight pinion shaft; the front bearing ID is still 1.375" (true of all of them). This was the heavy-duty rear axle used in longram barges, Super Stock Max Wedges & Hemis, the '65 A990 lightweight and A/FX factory drag cars, etc. Pinion-bearing preload is also set with shims on this axle, and aftermarket gearset availability has always been good. All 985 & 742 Sure Grips had the Powr-Lok differential. There was no exception to this rule since the change to the cone-type came after the 742 was gone.
  • 488/489: The other beast. This housing series replaced the 742 as the HD rear axle in a rolling change very late in the 1968 model year. I've pulled two untouched factory 489 cases from 1969 models (one from a Coronet R/T automatic and the other a D100) with factory Powr-Lok differentials, but such examples aren't common. The vast majority of this case series will have the "throwaway" Anti-Spin differential (again, stay tuned). These cases use a massive 1.875" tapered pinion shaft, again with the small 1.375" bearing up front. This case probably has, or had, the widest availability of aftermarket gearsets. Pinion-bearing preload is set via a crush sleeve. Weak but easy. If you've ever seen a differential with "chew marks" from pinion teeth hitting the diff case, it most likely came out of a 488/489 case where the crush sleeve failed. Be impressed--it takes a shit-ton of power, slicks, and one hell of a launch to do that, since you have to collapse the front pinion bearing completely. For you hardcore types, there are solid crush sleeves available that use shims to set the preload. Due to the huge rear bearing and tapered, rather than stepped, pinion shaft, the 488/489 case is generally considered the strongest of the bunch, though generally pinion failures on any of the HD housings will be the yoke snapping off. Taper or not, the 489 pinion gear still has a machined step right behind the front bearing; that's where they break. As a final note, I have no idea what's up with the 488 case. It's not a date thing, and I've seen precious few of them and never owned one, which is saying something since over 100 8.75" center sections have passed through my hands.

Continued next post...
 

NoCar340

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OK. Now we'll talk a little about differentials:

The Dana Powr-Lock clutch-pack differential is commonly just called the "clutch type". This diff is virtually indestructible, owing to its four-pinion (spider gear) design. The worst thing that happens to these are worn or (very rarely) broken clutches. In daily driving, this one acts more like a locker, with some noise evident. If the rearend lube is really beat, expect some herky-jerky rearend jitter in turns. There are actually three versions of this differential, the first being the early version with the oddball thrust buttons. Nothing wrong with this diff, assuming you have the drum puller required to get the axles out to pop the center section. Just replace the existing thrust buttons (look down the axle splines--it's at the bottom of the hole) with the commonly-available reproductions. If you don't, you'll never get your wheel bearings right, I promise. The second version is different only because it already has the right thrust buttons for the '65-up cars ('66-up Imperial, for some reason). The third version uses an oddball clutch-carrier arrangement and is actually the best of the three, but good luck finding one. Per Spicer, they only made it in calendar 1968 so it was used during the last 2/3 of '68 production and in very-early '69 models during the rolling change to the Anti-Spin. All Powr-Lok diffs use the same bearings and clutch packs; the clutch packs sold by Dana/Spicer are OE replacements while the MP version is more aggressive. It launches harder but you'll notice it more in corners/turns. Don't know what diff you have? Replace the thrust buttons anyhow. It's cheap insurance. For the record, the '68 revision is a dandy. If a seller knows what he's got, it's gonna be pricey.

The Borg Warner Anti Spin cone-clutch differential is commonly simply called the "cone type". It uses one-piece, spirally-grooved cones in place of the Dana's multiple-clutch packs. The reason Chrysler went to this design early in the '69 model year is that it's much smoother in daily operation--essentially seamless and silent. While it is plenty strong, it's not nearly the stone ax that the Dana unit is. Drawbacks include a case seam that runs through the pinion-shaft bore, only two pinions, and the fact that the clutches wear directly on inside of the case. These diffs are notorious for the pinion shaft galling to the pinion/spider gears, shearing the locating pin, and ovalling the pin's bore in the case. The seam running through the case's shaft bores doesn't help this situation, and its root causes are neglect combined with abuse. The lube gets tired, and jackasses like me keep pounding the snot out of 'em with big-blocks, etc. No, I never even considered the axle lube in my Charger because it never made noise and it always burned both rears. When we popped that axle apart with 187,000(!) very hard miles on it, it shouldn't have been a surprise to see that one shaft bore was a 2"-long oval. But it was a shock, because it was so quiet and still burned both! Anyhow, if maintained correctly this differential will live a long and happy life behind even a stout big-block/4-speed while turning slicks. Eventually, the cones will machine their way into the case halves, and that's when Chrysler, Borg Warner, and now Auburn (they bought the design and patent from Borg Warner years ago) says it's time to replace. Is it? Well, yes and no. Milling the back sides of the cones will return the diff to operation, but those who made it are right when they tell you your internal gear mesh is now out of specification. That will cause problems, make no mistake. But, remember how I told you to stay tuned? I found a workaround using factory pieces several years back... in an open differential, which guys are just throwing out, there's a neat pair of thick shims behind the side gears. Well, darned if they don't fit between the side gears and cones just perfectly on an Anti-Spin! They've even got a pair of nifty little oiling holes in 'em. Simply measure the thickness of the shims and mill a couple thousandths more off the back of the cones. Factory approved? Hell no. Does it work, and maintain gear clearance? Why yes, it does! How long does it last? I can't say. I did one for a friend's very-healthy 451-inch Road Runner 12 years ago and it's still fine, but that's not a daily driver either. Suffice to say if you do this hack, it would be a good idea to start saving your pennies for a replacement diff. It's a one-time-only deal. If she starts kicking one leg with that mod, there's no bringing it back a second time.

Swapping diffs: All 8.75" cases, 1957-'74, have the same outer diameter for the differential bearing races. The Powr-Lok and the Anti-Spin have different outer diameters for the bearing cones, though. It's pretty simple: If you're using a Powr-Lok, tell the guy you've got a '66 with a 742 case and Sure Grip. If you're using an Anti-Spin (or a new Auburn replacement) change your lie to a '72 with a 489 case and Sure Grip. This is true regardless of what case you're actually using and will get you the right bearings and races every time. I'll post the numbers here when I find my Big Blue Butt Book, where I actually have all this information written down.

Pinion splines: There are two variances here, 10 and 29. All 657, 985, and 742 cases were factory-equipped with 10-spline pinion yokes regardless of differential. 741 and 488/489 cases were by and large 29-spline, but both of the Powr-Lok-equipped 489 cases I pulled were 10-spline, so my belief is that clutch-type diffs used the coarse spline. 741 cases were 10-spline until the '69 model year, when they went to 29. I've not found a '69 Powr-Lok 741 to date, but I'd bet on a 10-spline if one was built. I've never seen a 10-spline open 488/489, period. Yokes are available in both splines, large and small U-joint, from several sources if you find a gotta-have gearset and it's the wrong spline for your existing yoke. Keep in mind, the 29-spline yoke from any other Chrysler rearend will work: 7.25", 8.25", 9.25" and passenger-car Dana 53 and 60. Dana 53?! Don't ask. Seriously.
 

NoCar340

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I'm actually going to throw a curveball: Ford 8.8 out of an explorer (Exploder) An XLT should be limited spin slip and you just need spring perches. My budy has one on a custom build power by a 500 inch caddy motor. He has 200 bucks into that ford rear. Parts is plenty on the Ford rear. I have to duck now as the rocks are coming at me.
All the potential problems of the 8.25" axle, with the added bonus of an appetite for pinion bearings and gearsets! Actually, it's not a bad axle design but the quality control is nothing above abysmal on the 8.8". You might get a good one, or you might end up on your roof in the ditch. If one were to pursue this option, based on the parts I've sold for this train wreck of an axle over the years, I'd suggest having a professional go through it 100% with new seals, bearings, ring & pinion, and axle shafts. Dorman makes those axles for a reason: they're a big, profitable problem. The 8.8 is kind of like a Powerglide: once a professional has replaced everything inside with aftermarket stuff, it's freakin' bulletproof! :D
 

Aspen500

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All the potential problems of the 8.25" axle, with the added bonus of an appetite for pinion bearings and gearsets! Actually, it's not a bad axle design but the quality control is nothing above abysmal on the 8.8". You might get a good one, or you might end up on your roof in the ditch. If one were to pursue this option, based on the parts I've sold for this train wreck of an axle over the years, I'd suggest having a professional go through it 100% with new seals, bearings, ring & pinion, and axle shafts. Dorman makes those axles for a reason: they're a big, profitable problem. The 8.8 is kind of like a Powerglide: once a professional has replaced everything inside with aftermarket stuff, it's freakin' bulletproof! :D
I will second that. Was a Ford tech from '86-'07 and must have had a couple hundred 8.8's apart replacing the bearings (pinion, carrier and axle) and oodle's of axle shafts. Don't recall any that actual broke, just wore out prematurely especially if the owner also owned a boat and backed the rear axle under water and never changed the fluid. Even with the remote vent hose, the water still gets in.
90% of the ones with problems were in Explorers and F-Series. Crown Vics and Mustang's mostly had axle shaft bearings go bad and eat the shaft, which makes it loose, which causes a big fluid leak, which ruins the brakes..................

I'm sure it was mentioned already but, the 8.8" is also a c-clip style axle. Not sure if anyone makes a c-clip eliminator kit for them (or the 8.25" for that matter) like they do for the GM c-clip axles.
Axle selection also depends on if it's an automatic or manual trans. Hemi Charger auto, 8.75" while Hemi Charger 4-speed, Dana 60. An 8.25 will survive more power through an auto than it will a manual.
 
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Jack Meoff

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@Aspen500
Very interesting point that never even dawned on me. My buddy has played U boat commander with his Jimmy more than a few times. I wonder how much water he's gotten in his rear diff....?
 

NoCar340

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I'm sure it was mentioned already but, the 8.8" is also a c-clip style axle. Not sure if anyone makes a c-clip eliminator kit for them (or the 8.25" for that matter) like they do for the GM c-clip axles.
I think I did by saying "all the potential problems of the 8.25"..." I certainly meant to indicate that. Literally the only C-clip axle I've neither seen fail a C-clip, nor even heard of it, is the Chrysler 9.25". They were already big when Chrysler made them even beefier during the '84 model year. That design had issues in the '90s, usually assembly or materials problems, but prior to that it was largely issue-free.
 

brotherGood

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Just getting a chance to read all this great information. I had only heard of the 3 cases before, never knew there were more. Also didn't know all that about the Ford 8.8, I had just heard that it was recommended to weld the axle tubes or something like that.

So, should I go ahead and stick a SG in my current 8.25, and just be on the lookout for an 8.75, or not even bother investing into the 8.25, or the 8.75 for that matter.

Not sure if I said it earlier, yes I want it to be quicker than my father in laws camaro, but it'll be a cruiser about 70% of the time or more. It'll be on the highway occasionally, mostly 15 minute drives, on the exception of the Nats
 

NoCar340

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You have an AHB that's not a Sure Grip?! Honestly, I've never come across such a car. Are you sure the cones in the diff aren't just worn? Any Mopar Sure Grip of the Borg Warner cone-clutch design (virtually everything except the Dana from 1970 until the '90s) will just act like a 1-legger when it's shot. It'll never make a peep and it'll never break, it just acts like an open diff. It makes no difference, really. It's got to come apart either way. I just find it interesting. Of course, I'm in serious snow country, too.

As far as racing that Camaro: You have my utmost respect for being willing to put your money where your mouth is, but your father-in-law is going to eat your lunch. Stock for stock, he's got you by 261HP and almost 6.5 seconds and 40MPH in the quarter mile. I know you've done some work to your car, but that's an enormous deficit to overcome.

2015 Camaro 1SS/1LE: 426HP, 12.9sec @ 111MPH. Source: 2015 Car & Driver comparison test
1987 Dodge Diplomat AHB: 165HP, 19.35sec @ 73.5MPH. Source: Michigan State Police 1987 Model Year Patrol Vehicle Testing, NCJRS 104406 (PDF file, p23)
 
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