Body shop

[Monkeyed]

I worked with a guy who used to put his rendition of Niagra Falls (American & Canadian!) in primer & clear coat. His metal skills were marginal at best. But boy could he sling some mud! He could probably build a car completely out of mud, park it next to the real thing, & I'd defy anyone to tell the difference! He's actually had a couple cars in major auto rags. One was a Nova in some Super Chevy, another was a GTO in Hot Rod, or one of those. He felt that you could sand runs out easier than scuffing & squirting over "dry" spots. He literally used 1/2 of a quart of primer on a guitar body. No neck, all interior surfaces masked off. Just a small solid body guitar. It took me 6 hrs to get the primer sanded down. So I know what you mean about someone who should never hold a spray gun in his hand! I use HVLP SATA guns for everything but primer. I use Nesco genuine/imitation SATA guns for primer. After I sanded that guitar body down, I re-primed it with 3oz.'s of primer! The most successful method of rust conversion is R/R. Por15 works well on rusted metal, as stated above. But you can literally hook an edge with a blade & peel it right off of clean, bare metal. I found that using their etch makes no difference whatsoever. The thing it adheres to best, is your skin if you don't take it off when wet! I can't work consistently with my screwed up back. Sometime's I bend over, or squat one time, & I'm done for the day, or week, or longer. If I ever get this thing straightened out....... I'd love to say I could get a halfway decent paint job on one of the Imp.'s before the Nat.'s, but I still don't have that kind of access to a garage full-time like that. Like Latka (Taxi) used to say, "If it one thing, it's always another!"

I have a pretty ok HVLP gun. It was the best one Home Depot had for $69.99 about 10 years ago. It's done pretty good for what I've used it for. which isn't a whole lot. I abused it a bit by thinning down some truck bed liner with Lac-Cryl 45 and spraying in to the fiberglass topper of my Bronco. It was originally green, but faded to almost teal. Now it's flat black, and looks much better. I always make sure to clean it out, and spray clean thinner through it until it comes out clear.

Do you have a link for that R/R stuff? All I could find was rust remover http://www.indiamart.com/neelamct/rust-removers.html I think I saw something like "Coroseal" by the gallon at HD, for like $22. I was considering picking some up to try out, then sand it down, and put some high build primer on it.

 

[My imp]

R/R (Remove & Replace with good metal). All of those rust converters, encapsulators, whatever they want to call them are only band-aids to cover something over temporarily. It's not a final solution. My former shop foreskin always wanted to try the latest speciality rust paint. Some work better than others, some not really at all. He wanted stuff fast & sloppy. Before I started there, ALL paint used was NAPA's cheapest rattle can school bus yellow. It all depends on what you want the car for. If you want to just sell the car, why put mega bucks into paint & body? Most of that stuff lasts a couple of years , if used properly for its application. But if you plan on keeping the car, why go to all that time & expense of doing a half assed job that's going to need redone in a few years? Used rust free sheet metal is just as good as new metal. Even better in some cases. You know the used factory stuff is going to fit. Some aftermarket metal (or plastic parts) needs considerable massaging to fit, some never fits right no matter what you do. I started painting with a Binks that was given to me by a guy who was retiring. I didn't test everyone of the Ginsu guns, but every salesman said that their gun "Sprays just like a Binks!". Spoken like a man who's never sprayed with a Binks! I have a number of Nesco guns that spray quite satisfactorily. They do an excellent job, however, they do have their limitations. The atomization is what seperates the quality or the different guns. On a guitar, it's called a sunburst finish, on cars, it's called a fade. The secret to a good fade, is not being able to see the fade. Sounds stupid, but it's true. Do it right, & people won't be able to tell you only used 3 or 5 shades. You shouldn't be able to tell where one color stops, & the next one begins. It should fade. A cheaper gun just can't atomize like the expensive ones can. Look at the nozzles & tips on a name brand gun; then go look at one of the ones meant to replicate the name brand one. There are so many subtle nuances to putting down a quality job. As I've stated before, find a paint jobber that sells "bulk" paint. It'll be colors that were mixed wrong, customer didn't like it, they mixed too much, or any other reason, but it'll be available for pennies on the dollar. I used to get acrylic enamel for $16 a gallon, lacquer for $23 a gallon. Of course, that was 30+ years ago. But the point is, don't learn on $600 a gallon paint! Buy the cheap stuff, reducers & hardeners will be the same. But you're trying to learn.

 

[ramenth]

Do you have a link for that R/R stuff? All I could find was rust remover http://www.indiamart.com/neelamct/rust-removers.html I think I saw something like "Coroseal" by the gallon at HD, for like $22. I was considering picking some up to try out, then sand it down, and put some high build primer on it.

I avoid "miracle" paints like the plague. Nothing, but nothing beats clean sheetmetal. If you're putting something like POR-15 on a rusty panel, ask yourself, why am I painting over rust?

What he said.

 

[alf44]

question for the pros.. im going to do my own body and paint work and am thinking on getting my supplies at napa. i think they carry OMNI brand paint -supplies. is this a good choise for a first time painter? my brother used OMNI brand on his 53 GMC street rod and looks great.i know that i will never get a show car finish but am looking for the best paint that will give me good results at the best (cheepest ) cost. this is a learning type of paint job. i used to work in a woodshop spraying stains-sealers-top coats and do know how to use the right spray patterns-overlaps. please.. any advice for a beginner . am looking for a specific brand of paint and reducers any any related supplies including primer..thanks.,.,.,. alf

 

[ramenth]

question for the pros.. im going to do my own body and paint work and am thinking on getting my supplies at napa. i think they carry OMNI brand paint -supplies. is this a good choise for a first time painter? my brother used OMNI brand on his 53 GMC street rod and looks great.i know that i will never get a show car finish but am looking for the best paint that will give me good results at the best (cheepest ) cost. this is a learning type of paint job. i used to work in a woodshop spraying stains-sealers-top coats and do know how to use the right spray patterns-overlaps. please.. any advice for a beginner . am looking for a specific brand of paint and reducers any any related supplies including primer..thanks.,.,.,. alf

Omni? That's the trick. Your brother's truck turned out nice, but there's no guarantee that your's will, even taking into account the same level of skill.

The consistency with Omni is hit or miss. Sometimes it'll lay in and look great, other times, taking all the same parameters it will turn out looking like s***.

If your jobber is selling PPG, ask 'em if they sell Shopline. A better quality product that's not a bank breaker, and is forgiving enough for novices.

 

[Mr.Lopar]

my 5th ave has Omni primer and the base has Omni black mixed in

 

[NoCar340]

I've found that with the lower-line stuff (Omni, Nason, and U-Tech) that it seems to be much more user friendly with less reducer than the tech sheets indicate. How did I discover this handy fact? My factory paint reps when I was a jobber, and the local PPG jobber (for the Omni) all told me the same thing about their products. Another neophyte error I made: don't overdo it on activator or hardener. Use exactly the amount specified, no more. I accidentally used too much activator in some Nason I was shooting, and thought it would be OK since it wasn't too far over. I got exactly the opposite result you'd expect--a month after I was done shooting, the paint was still tacky. I had to strip the work and start all over at my expense.

 

[Monkeyed]

As I've stated before, find a paint jobber that sells "bulk" paint. It'll be colors that were mixed wrong, customer didn't like it, they mixed too much, or any other reason, but it'll be available for pennies on the dollar. I used to get acrylic enamel for $16 a gallon, lacquer for $23 a gallon. Of course, that was 30+ years ago. But the point is, don't learn on $600 a gallon paint! Buy the cheap stuff, reducers & hardeners will be the same. But you're trying to learn.

I have a buddy that works at a place that does jobs for thee manufacturers. He can get me a gallon of dupont. I guess they have so much excess that I'll probably have a hard time getting him to let me pay them for it. (I've had to sneak money into his house and hide it in the past.) He gets a recipe for what color they want, then enters it into a computer that uses robots to mix the pigments. The interface he uses is "a bit like playing Tetris"

This car is practice/project I'd like it to turn out nice, but if it doesn't, I can still work with that. Most stuff I build end up looking a bit mean. Body work in MI is entirely optional, so if it only lasts a year or two, I can redo it, or not. It's a $600 car that was owned by an elderly mechanic, what could possibly go wrong?

I admire high quality restorations, and the amount of work AND skill that goes into one. I believe I can make this one reliable, driveable, and at least presentable for under $2,500 bottom line. Right now I'm at the $600 for the car + $400 for tires + $100 for the used intake and carb. I'm looking at another $200 for a new mopar performance vac advance distributor AND pertonix ignition. we'll just call it $100 for a carb rebuild kit, intake gasket set, and replacement float bowl, just to make the math easier.

I have a media blaster that I can load with baking soda to strip the fading silver paint off the tail light trim, and the peeling body color matching stickers off the door handles and mirrors. I can get creative with it to scuff for paint without leaving sanding swirls. I'm going to remove the door trim, because it's looking ratty.

other than that, the pitted rust spots, and holes; I can get plain new flat sheet metal easily, and cheaply. Finding OEM body pieces to patch in, even if I pick up a welder (I got pretty comfortable with a torch, and stick welding in class, but missed the one day they went over mig/tig), is close to impossible.

I might take the $1,100 for body work and pay my student loan down to $2,700. It's my last debt, so that would also be nice. :icon_king:

 

[NoCar340]

I'd missed the part in MyImp's post about the "bad mixes" or mixing too much. I used to sell those for less than half of the retail price, and if someone was worried about later matching the paint, I'd just point to the color camera. It was never an issue later.

 

[alf44]

thank you ramenth... ill look into shopline products

 

[Monkeyed]

I worked with a guy who used to put his rendition of Niagra Falls (American & Canadian!) in primer & clear coat. His metal skills were marginal at best. But boy could he sling some mud! He could probably build a car completely out of mud, park it next to the real thing, & I'd defy anyone to tell the difference! He's actually had a couple cars in major auto rags. One was a Nova in some Super Chevy, another was a GTO in Hot Rod, or one of those. He felt that you could sand runs out easier than scuffing & squirting over "dry" spots. He literally used 1/2 of a quart of primer on a guitar body. No neck, all interior surfaces masked off. Just a small solid body guitar. It took me 6 hrs to get the primer sanded down. So I know what you mean about someone who should never hold a spray gun in his hand! I use HVLP SATA guns for everything but primer. I use Nesco genuine/imitation SATA guns for primer. After I sanded that guitar body down, I re-primed it with 3oz.'s of primer! The most successful method of rust conversion is R/R. Por15 works well on rusted metal, as stated above. But you can literally hook an edge with a blade & peel it right off of clean, bare metal. I found that using their etch makes no difference whatsoever. The thing it adheres to best, is your skin if you don't take it off when wet! I can't work consistently with my screwed up back. Sometime's I bend over, or squat one time, & I'm done for the day, or week, or longer. If I ever get this thing straightened out....... I'd love to say I could get a halfway decent paint job on one of the Imp.'s before the Nat.'s, but I still don't have that kind of access to a garage full-time like that. Like Latka (Taxi) used to say, "If it one thing, it's always another!"

Never had a car in any magazines (had a camaro that everything seemed to fall nicely into place on). I did write to the current Editor of Hot Rod in response to an old call for ideas someone left up on their webpage. I had just finished up my automotive associates, and was used to writing papers for my business Supervision class, and wrote a technical research paper for a Metallurgy course. He replied and thanked me, I guess he was impressed, made my year.

 

[Mr.Lopar]

I think some o'reilly stores carry the Omni paint to

 

[kkritsilas]

Hi,

Sorry for butting in, but I want to ask a question regarding a couple of "old time" paints that I don't see being used much any more. The first one has to do with Dupont Imron, which used to be on a lot of magazine cars in the past. The other has to do with epoxy paint (not primer, paint). From what I remember, it was supposed to be really, really tough paint, with the only issue being that it would crack/craze sometimes after a few years. Is anybody using these anymore? Or did their drawbacks just cause them to be outdated when newer paint formulations came along?

Kostas

 

[ramenth]

Hi,

Sorry for butting in, but I want to ask a question regarding a couple of "old time" paints that I don't see being used much any more. The first one has to do with Dupont Imron, which used to be on a lot of magazine cars in the past. The other has to do with epoxy paint (not primer, paint). From what I remember, it was supposed to be really, really tough paint, with the only issue being that it would crack/craze sometimes after a few years. Is anybody using these anymore? Or did their drawbacks just cause them to be outdated when newer paint formulations came along?

Kostas

You're last question basically hit the nail on the head. For automotive finishes Imron been surpassed. I was never personally impressed by it.

I know Imron is still being used for industrial purposes where powdercoating isn't practical. As a matter of fact, the local train builder is still using it on the Amtrak project.

As far as an epoxy paint, I've never had any experience with it. I've heard it mentioned once in my career, but that's it.

 

[My imp]

Iron was a fleet paint billed as an end all paint. Epoxy is used sparingly, as it destroys everything, like the enviorment, painters, etc. but it does have its uses. Powder coat is better, but many moons ago, I used to paint outboard motors in S.W. Fla. with epoxy paint. Did a fine job keeping out the salt (for a while). As I recall, it was thick, required thick coats to "flow" properly, & cost up the wazoo! As long as the material can handle the baking period, I highly recommend powder coating. With all the colors they have now, there's no reason not to. I purchased Summit's urethane paint to try. If I'm not mistaken, it's Sherwin Williams, which I sprayed GALLONS of (yellow) when I worked for Fla. DOT. Then I worked for a school system & sprayed GALLONS of (yellow) SW paint. So excuse me if I don't rush out & buy a yellow car. It's not the easiest paint I've ever sprayed, requires your undivided attention, but if you pay attention, I'd put it up against most other paints. BASF (RM) is my favorite. That stuff flows unbelievably well. Their materials are consistent from one jobber to the next. I'm not talking color match, that's up to the mixer & painter, I'm talking flake, pearl, binders, etc. when using a viscosity cup, all paint from a manufacturer should be as close as identical as possible. I've checked 1 qt. to another, & not even been in the same ballpark. As Robert said, find a good jobber, & stick with him. Most of the places I dealt with either closed, or sold out & went corporate. They're about useless. Nepotism, college degrees in business & industrial basket weaving, don't know their arses from a hole in the ground when it comes to the product, "Well let me look that up for you sir". I can read. Been doing it for 50 years now. I already read the manual, I don't need it recited back to me. What I want to know isn't in the manual, but an experienced jobber would know the answer right off the top of his/her head.

 

[NoCar340]

...don't know their arses from a hole in the ground when it comes to the product, "Well let me look that up for you sir". I can read. Been doing it for 50 years now. I already read the manual, I don't need it recited back to me. What I want to know isn't in the manual, but an experienced jobber would know the answer right off the top of his/her head.

Hence the reason I mention running less reducer in Omni/Nason/U-Tech product. It's almost universally known by those who use it, but it sure as hell isn't information you'll find in the tech sheets.

I dropped and broke a bottle of Imron activator (remember when that came in the Listerine-lookin' glass bottles?) when I was 17. It was not possible to vent the building quickly enough, and everyone was high as a kite. No doubt we all went home with a little less central nervous system than we showed up with that day. :eusa_doh: Part of what made Imron popular was its indestructible nature--as mentioned, it was king prior to powder coating becoming popular and affordable. Unfortunately, it also made the paint hard to work if you screwed up (as I recall--I may be mistaken after a quarter century). The price was higher than the balls on a giraffe back in the '80s. Now it's used as an industrial coating, also already mentioned, for its "shoot it and forget it for 10 years" durability. Imron is single-handedly the gnarliest paint I've ever had to be around in the 28 years I've been working in the auto industry... and I've been around just about everything at some point and been in the shop/booth while it was being sprayed. Even when it was popular, a lot of guys didn't want to shoot it and were able to talk people out of it based on the price alone. Technology has far surpassed it, and I think the only reason it's still available is because of "legacy" users that have had it for years. The local garbage-truck plant (LoDal) was using it back in the '70 & '80s, and I'm sure a number of places still are.

R-M... there's a name I haven't heard in a while. Rinshed-Mason sort of vanished from this area about 30 years ago, and I'm really not sure why. The guys that used it way back when all seemed to have good things to say about it, but the local jobber jumped to PPG and that was the end of it. They later switched to Akzo Nobel but recently went with DuPont; NAPA picked up PPG back during the Akzo transition and actually dumped Martin Senour, which no one can correctly pronounce anyhow. :icon_biggrin:

 

[ramenth]

Hence the reason I mention running less reducer in Omni/Nason/U-Tech product. It's almost universally known by those who use it, but it sure as hell isn't information you'll find in the tech sheets.

One of my "secrets" is using the P-sheet as a guide, not a gospel. The manufacturer has a multi-million dollar R&D with temp and humidity controls to be able to test the various hardeners and reducers. I don't.

Remember how I said I had the local jobber calling and asking questions as to how I was getting 2002 to lay in when everyone else was having issues? I'd use a higher temp reducer than was what called for. I'd stay away from "speed hardeners." And I wasn't afraid to pull back on the hardener a bit and make up the volume with a touch more reducer.

I've shot DCU/DCC mix, 1:1 RTS. Not for the feint of heart. The clear is thinner than the single stage and makes it run like piss. What to do, what to do? Cocktail the shit, that's what.

 

[kkritsilas]

From the old days, I remember epoxy paint being used mostly for drag racing cars (specifically alcohol and nitromethane/fuel dragsters and funny cars) because a fuel spill wouldn't harm the paint in any way. I think I remember seeing it on some World of Wheels show cars, too. Look very glassy/porcelain like from what I remember. It was probably close to impossible to remove though, and it was really hazardous for the people spraying it (from memory, they needed to be in a fully enclosed suit).

Kostas

 

[My imp]

See what I mean? Go into the Docker/Polo shirt wearing "corporate" guy's jobber shop & bring up ANY of the points brought up here, & see what answers you get. The cherry popper for me is when I ask the counter man which systems HE personally uses, or has had the most success with. After the deer in headlights look, the "I know guys that.......". So do I, but that's not what I asked you. Then, comes the sales pitch for latest & greatest thing ($$$$$$$) on the market. Then, why is this superior to what I've been shooting? As I've said before, the last jobber in my area sold out. The old owner was one grumpy, gruff old man that used to sit in the corner watching the world go by. I remember thinking that this could be one great place if someone else owned it..... Be careful what you wish for comes to mind. Sikkens is a really good system as well. But they kind of priced themselves out of the market. With all the custom paint colors coming out these days, there has been no shortage of companies vieing for your business. Other than on model cars, I haven't painted with the water based chameleon colors, like the first XXX GTO. That's stuff doesn't translate as well on a 1/24 Road Runner as it would on a full size one, but it still looks cool as hell.

 

[ramenth]

See what I mean? Go into the Docker/Polo shirt wearing "corporate" guy's jobber shop & bring up ANY of the points brought up here, & see what answers you get. The cherry popper for me is when I ask the counter man which systems HE personally uses, or has had the most success with. After the deer in headlights look, the "I know guys that.......". So do I, but that's not what I asked you. Then, comes the sales pitch for latest & greatest thing ($$$$$$$) on the market. Then, why is this superior to what I've been shooting? As I've said before, the last jobber in my area sold out. The old owner was one grumpy, gruff old man that used to sit in the corner watching the world go by. I remember thinking that this could be one great place if someone else owned it..... Be careful what you wish for comes to mind. Sikkens is a really good system as well. But they kind of priced themselves out of the market. With all the custom paint colors coming out these days, there has been no shortage of companies vieing for your business. Other than on model cars, I haven't painted with the water based chameleon colors, like the first XXX GTO. That's stuff doesn't translate as well on a 1/24 Road Runner as it would on a full size one, but it still looks cool as hell.

That's where I'm blessed with a local jobber who not only sells the paint, but has guys on the counter who actually use it. Three of them used to be body men and shop managers who decided a career selling the shit they've used was easier on their lungs. All three run small side shops from their houses and "test" new products as it comes in the door so they'll at least be familiar with the product they sell from a tech standpoint.

That's one of the reasons I've advocated to find a jobber. Parts guys sell parts, not paint. The internet parts houses sell parts, not paint. All they can do is guide you through what the P-sheet tells you if you call them asking for support.

Hell, even if you get hooked up with a local shop with a mix station and buy paint directly from the body shop (I've worked for a few shops that will do that) you can ask questions from them. Chances of a production body shop using the "low-line" paints are slim (and if they use the low-lines on collision, it's not a shop I'd want to deal with), but you might be surprised at what's available for a decent price.