Uh, not really. Chrysler was in such poor shape when Daimler was finished they sold it at fire-sale pricing to Cerberus, which continued in Daimler's losing ways and left Chrysler in the position of bankruptcy. When Daimler bought Chrysler, on the other hand, Chrysler had not only firm control over their inventory, manufacturing, labor costs and everything else it takes to be a car company, they also had $27 billion in cash assets. Cash. Not buildings, not built cars, not huge tracts of land... American greenback dollars! Daimler quickly emptied the account and started building cars with tooling left over from their aging models (the Crossfire was a brand-new 15-year-old Benz) including the LX cars. There's a lot of German in them-there Challengers, podnuh... Dr. Z was all too happy to point it out in that doomed ad campaign. They took what they wanted and left the corpse to rot. Had Chrysler been left to its own devices and stayed the course they chose in the early '90s starting with the LH cars, they wouldn't have needed the government bailout, pure and simple.
"Crush all those Vipers" orders FIAT!
- Thread starter 8d5 AHB
- Start date
My imp
Well-Known Member
A history they're more than happy to repeat. Anyone remember Lido next to the first K-car? Same as the LH (last hope), the only difference is that Chrysler's being purchased, instead of doing the purchasing. Rootes group, Lamborghini, etc... They sold off the only profitable division they had, per first bailout agreement (General Dynamics).
My imp
Well-Known Member
Now what I want to know, is why GM didn't have to sell out, but did need to fire their upper management?
ramenth
Well-Known Member
Add into that in emptying out the coffers it was to buy into Hyundai and set up the joint venture engines powering the Caliber and the like, re-buying shares in Mitsu which Chrysler had just dumped, and then when Benz dumped the remains they kept Chrysler's only profitable division at the time in Freightliner.
The take over was purely mercenary in a grab at Jeep technology and trying to break into North American large trucks. Even with Freightliner on a golden platter, the idiots damn near killed the brand by insisting that Benz engines would be the only engines available. Now, International is back with the larger fleets like JB and Schneider while a lot of smaller companies like what my dad drove for have switched to Mack. Talk about giving your business to the competition.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
Chrysler has been kicked to the curb so many times now it's just sad.
Both by themselves and others.
A once great company that could easily be taken to the top again if it weren't for mismanagement and the shortsightedness of the people holding the reigns.
Both by themselves and others.
A once great company that could easily be taken to the top again if it weren't for mismanagement and the shortsightedness of the people holding the reigns.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
The first Viper bites the dust.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqh2KkoLbfI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqh2KkoLbfI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
My imp
Well-Known Member
Right on brother! Muscle car: big engine, intermmediate platform, no frills, low price tag. New Dodge Challenger with the "yellow jacket" package:$55,000+! I'd hate to see the "expensive" one! The closest they came to a muscle car was the SS package. Didn't have anything, including seam sealer, carpet, & anything else not needed for min. weight, max. performance. Oh yeah, & it isn't even street legal. But it is a lot closer to the original muscle car, than the over optioned, over weight tanks they're selling as musclecars today. IMHO Chargers have 2 doors. Period. All of the companies have bastardized their performance cars with go faster stripes, & scoops that're no more needed than teats on a board. A Ginsu Challenger that would've fit in the rediculously small original Challengers trunk. An Omni Charger? Another real gem! Ford & GM work with the aftermarket to encourage people buying & modifying their wares. Chrysler sues anyone, or won't give out info to tuner part manufacturers. That's all you hear on these shows about no co-operation from Chrysler. My son is looking for a car. Wants a VW CC. Any other car I've suggested usually meets with a quick no, or silence. Instead of a two yr. old VW, why not a new Dart? Nope, POS. Why? Ranked 8 out 10 in some article. Why? Is the car really a POS? The two people I know with Darts, love them. Why is it so bad? Why does Chrysler seem to consistently build POS? Doesn't matter the owners, designers, bean counters, or workers. All I ever hear is POS whenever Chryslers mentioned. Perhaps it's perceived value? A $55,000 car BETTER perform flawlessly, or it is a POS! Maybe a manual trans, steering, windows, (you get the picture) etc.. Challenger with a HEMI, for $25,000 wouldn't be quite a POS! Sell a lot of cars, create a lot of jobs building all the cars you're gonna sell, maybe even start to re-create something we used to have called a middle class. But, just keep building $55,000 ones that no one is buying. My local dealer has two lots that he just keeps shifting those albatrosses back & forth from.
Ford has gotten the Mustang right since the reintroduction of the V8 GT back in '82. Reasonably small, light, with accessible and affordable non-performance models (which in some cases still pack a wallop--check out the stats on the V6 of the last several years). The Camaro and the Challenger both are overbloated pigs, the Challenger in particular. Park it next to an original and two things become very obvious: the car is fargin' huge, and it's actually rather ugly. Oh, and about that $55K price tag? For all that money, the view out still appears as if you're sitting inside a Rubbermaid trash can. For all the complaints & hatred I've heard about the E-bodies over the years about their cheesy door panels and the hollow, tinny resonation from the doors of them, even those crappy door panels look light-years better than the interior panels in the new Challenger... which is another mistake Ford didn't make with the Mustang. The dash in my sister's '79 stripper 2.3L looked better than the Challenger!
Anyone switching to International will quickly regret doing so. Their current big-truck engines are freakin' horrible.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
I reluctantly agree...
As much as I love Chrysler and have tried to embrace the "new" Chrysler
Your analogy is fairly accurate.
While the Hemi Challenger is a fast mofo it still looks ridiculous IMO
The 300....it is a very nice driving car and could have been a very cool looking car but it does look bloated.....
Too bad....if they got their act together and really started putting some nice designs on the table and backing them up with a good selection of options and drivetrains they could get their asses back on top.
But it doesn't look like that's happening anytime soon.
ramenth
Well-Known Member
Regardless. The point of the post was that Benz is still mismanaging a North American company.
Trucks have always been an assembled item, built to the customer spec in choice of engines, trans, and rears. When you take over a company and try to eliminate that choice and force you own product on your customers they are going to turn their backs on you. The company my dad drove for ordered 100 Century class Freightliners back in '98, all with Cats, all with Road Rangers, all with Eaton rears. Once it was time to roll the fleet they went back to Freightliner and was told they could only have 'em with Benz engines. So they went to Mack assembled trucks, all with Cats, Road Rangers, and Eatons. As much as Mack likes to sell their own engines, trans, rears, and putting the Gold Bulldog on the hood, they understand the customer has his own requirements.
You're absolutely right, of course. I was just thinking of all the dead Cornbinders sitting at the local dealer, who is now shipping stuff to us to fix, and we're not an authorized International warranty facility. And yes, I've taken more than one phone call regarding a newer Freightliner with "that God-damned Mercedes engine", as customers tend to refer to it.
My imp
Well-Known Member
The 300 took the world by storm. A poor mans Bentley. An aftermarket built around the car. People wanted more than a cat back & air box couldn't go to 50 tuners for computers, heads, & other mods that Ford & GM seem to encourage. Chrysler I doubt will ever see the big picture. Buy a new pickup from Ford or GM & you see the Ram influence. Other designs seem to captivate the fickle public, but they can't seem to sustain their intrest. Cheesy plastic abounds on anything Chrysler. They hold a clinic on how to improve quality on Viper. They're so proud of themselves that after the congratulatory circle jerk, they saddle the thing with a six figure price tag! Bet they sell a lot of those! A cottage industry car (I don't care how good Chrysler says the car is) that wants to run with the big boys. They always seemed to do that. Remember the Spirit R/T that's enter than BMW? I didn't know which side of my skivvies to soil first lmao! If your door handles are faster than Ferrari's, you aren't as good,or better than Ferrari. Just because you put the stuff on the car that it should've had all along, don't pat yourself on the back & price yourself out of the market. They slit their own throat thinking America wanted another Cobra. America wanted a Cobra with an automatic trans, anti-lock brakes, traction control, power everything, you know a Corvette. Had Chrysler realized that, & priced it accordingly, they might've had something there. You really didn't get much for the price. Everyone knows about the Dakota parts, the 360 with a couple cylinders cast on, & all the parts bin parts that were used. A glorified kit car. Who do they get for all these clinics that they supposedly hold before they release new designs? Do they speak the same language? Are they job-scared yes men that keep telling them what great vehicles they're building?
ramenth
Well-Known Member
Ed, I gotta ask you a question of what you stated when you were talking about the Neon and the 5th.
You realize a lot of Chrysler fans don't feel the same way about the 5th or any M-body. They were throw away cars then, much like the perceptions of the cars being built now. They were mass produced by the thousands and seen as no big deal to toss in the junkyard when it needed to go. Thanks to fleet builds to go along with general public sales these cars were readily available and one sat on every corner for sale. Of course, attrition rates are making these cars more rare to find now.
I'll let you know, I'm of a like mind as you when it comes to the M's. I've been a fan of these cars since the the '80's and have had at least one in the family since 1991.
But, I'm also a Neon fan. The old man has a '97, stripped out Plymouth version. It's a nibble little car and with all the curves on the roads around here it's a blast to drive. If only it was a five speed. We have a lot steep grades in the area, too. Grades which my V8 powered F150 with 3.73's, my V8 Ramcharger with 3.23's, and my V6 powered Dakota with 3.92's need a run at the bottom to make it up at speed. Pop drops the little Neon back into 2nd, pushes the throttle a bit and that little SOHC 2.0L pulls those same hills at 60mph with room to spare.
Being a Neon fan I realize these were throwaway cars. Look at most of 'em on the road and then look at the drivers. There's a reason most are in the condition they're in: driven hard, put away wet, with very little routine maintenance, usually by some young kid with a Fast and Furious complex. I won't touch one in the used department with a stick.
But, there's the ACR's and the SRT4's as well as the early production model R/T's. Should they be thrown out the "bad," too, even though these cars were limited production runs and part of a niche market or are they all "disposable" simply because they're Neons? Are there exceptions to this rules, taking into account these sub-badges are as much a part of Chrysler history and as much a limited production run as some of the rare cars Chrysler has built over the years or do we throw the baby out with the bath water and call them all junk?
Maybe it's because of my history of turning a wrench and being in the collector car market for so long, starting when I was 16 and a rare car which everyone said "oh well" to landed in my hands. It's a factory 383 4bbl powered Sport Satellite 4 door. It may well be the last of it's kind in existence simply because the other 30 or so were wrecked, parted out for Road Runners,or simply seen as "oh well, it's a 4 door... who cares?"
Sarah and I were in the market for a used car for her, something newer, I'd driven, at the point, literally thousands of cars in my career. I've big block and high horse small block everythings. I've driven modern performance in GT500's and P51's. I've driven LT1 powered everythings. I've driven run of the mill cars like Neons, Focuses, and Cavaliers. I'll tell you the truth, I'm rarely impressed by any car. I was impressed with Sarah's Hyundai. I'm impressed with Pop's Neon, simply because of the fact these aren't the cars of rumor and myth, these cars actually are more than what you expect.
But, being in the collector car market, I've also come to the realization of "you can't save 'em all." What's your junk is another man's treasure and vice versa. And it's the reality of the situation.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of the situation at hand, but I'm also a realist. These cars have been touched so many times by amateurs I can guarantee you that there's nothing "right" with these cars to even begin. I've been part of the tech/vocational school programs. These kids, while learning, may or may not have the passion to follow through on what's a correct repair vs just bandaiding it together for a grade. I've watched it happen more times than I care to count. Hell, in my last business I made a lot of money fixing what these kids "fixed." And some of that was the most basic shit that anyone who knew what end of a wrench was which could accomplish. But the instructors? Well, I've dealt with a lot of them, too and the old saw about those who can, do? It applies.
No, unfortunately, these cars are test mules. They've been hacked, butchered, and band-aided.
You realize a lot of Chrysler fans don't feel the same way about the 5th or any M-body. They were throw away cars then, much like the perceptions of the cars being built now. They were mass produced by the thousands and seen as no big deal to toss in the junkyard when it needed to go. Thanks to fleet builds to go along with general public sales these cars were readily available and one sat on every corner for sale. Of course, attrition rates are making these cars more rare to find now.
I'll let you know, I'm of a like mind as you when it comes to the M's. I've been a fan of these cars since the the '80's and have had at least one in the family since 1991.
But, I'm also a Neon fan. The old man has a '97, stripped out Plymouth version. It's a nibble little car and with all the curves on the roads around here it's a blast to drive. If only it was a five speed. We have a lot steep grades in the area, too. Grades which my V8 powered F150 with 3.73's, my V8 Ramcharger with 3.23's, and my V6 powered Dakota with 3.92's need a run at the bottom to make it up at speed. Pop drops the little Neon back into 2nd, pushes the throttle a bit and that little SOHC 2.0L pulls those same hills at 60mph with room to spare.
Being a Neon fan I realize these were throwaway cars. Look at most of 'em on the road and then look at the drivers. There's a reason most are in the condition they're in: driven hard, put away wet, with very little routine maintenance, usually by some young kid with a Fast and Furious complex. I won't touch one in the used department with a stick.
But, there's the ACR's and the SRT4's as well as the early production model R/T's. Should they be thrown out the "bad," too, even though these cars were limited production runs and part of a niche market or are they all "disposable" simply because they're Neons? Are there exceptions to this rules, taking into account these sub-badges are as much a part of Chrysler history and as much a limited production run as some of the rare cars Chrysler has built over the years or do we throw the baby out with the bath water and call them all junk?
Maybe it's because of my history of turning a wrench and being in the collector car market for so long, starting when I was 16 and a rare car which everyone said "oh well" to landed in my hands. It's a factory 383 4bbl powered Sport Satellite 4 door. It may well be the last of it's kind in existence simply because the other 30 or so were wrecked, parted out for Road Runners,or simply seen as "oh well, it's a 4 door... who cares?"
Sarah and I were in the market for a used car for her, something newer, I'd driven, at the point, literally thousands of cars in my career. I've big block and high horse small block everythings. I've driven modern performance in GT500's and P51's. I've driven LT1 powered everythings. I've driven run of the mill cars like Neons, Focuses, and Cavaliers. I'll tell you the truth, I'm rarely impressed by any car. I was impressed with Sarah's Hyundai. I'm impressed with Pop's Neon, simply because of the fact these aren't the cars of rumor and myth, these cars actually are more than what you expect.
But, being in the collector car market, I've also come to the realization of "you can't save 'em all." What's your junk is another man's treasure and vice versa. And it's the reality of the situation.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of the situation at hand, but I'm also a realist. These cars have been touched so many times by amateurs I can guarantee you that there's nothing "right" with these cars to even begin. I've been part of the tech/vocational school programs. These kids, while learning, may or may not have the passion to follow through on what's a correct repair vs just bandaiding it together for a grade. I've watched it happen more times than I care to count. Hell, in my last business I made a lot of money fixing what these kids "fixed." And some of that was the most basic shit that anyone who knew what end of a wrench was which could accomplish. But the instructors? Well, I've dealt with a lot of them, too and the old saw about those who can, do? It applies.
No, unfortunately, these cars are test mules. They've been hacked, butchered, and band-aided.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
Well Robert....I'll try to nutshell my take (solely because I'm at work)
The Neon was a great little car....not my cup of tea personally but a great car nonetheless. I tried to get my wife to go for one. You can pick one up cheap, they're reliable, quick, and fun to drive but she'd have nothing to do with that.
She wanted a classic so I found her the Volare.
The Neon got played down to the Plymouth Breeze...essentially the same car but I felt light years from the Neon. The SRT4 is an insanely quick little monster and I do appreciate them. Hell I even have a soft spot for K cars. I don't want one but years after the fact they do have a certain cool factor to them to me anyway.
I've recently become an F body guy but I've always been an M guy.
And yes....absolutely they were low status throwaways chunked out in droves
But....everyone has their personal insanities and the M is mine.
Chrysler lost me by the time the Intrepid came around but the Neon for what it was certainly was solid value and a die hard. I still see more than a few rolling around.
Those Vipers?...I hear what you're saying and I'd have to agree....they're probably butcher'd. I just hate seeing a cool car like that being mashed.
As I've said.....I can't do anything about it and I won't lose any sleep over it.
I can't totally explain it but for some reason it does bug me....
The Neon was a great little car....not my cup of tea personally but a great car nonetheless. I tried to get my wife to go for one. You can pick one up cheap, they're reliable, quick, and fun to drive but she'd have nothing to do with that.
She wanted a classic so I found her the Volare.
The Neon got played down to the Plymouth Breeze...essentially the same car but I felt light years from the Neon. The SRT4 is an insanely quick little monster and I do appreciate them. Hell I even have a soft spot for K cars. I don't want one but years after the fact they do have a certain cool factor to them to me anyway.
I've recently become an F body guy but I've always been an M guy.
And yes....absolutely they were low status throwaways chunked out in droves
But....everyone has their personal insanities and the M is mine.
Chrysler lost me by the time the Intrepid came around but the Neon for what it was certainly was solid value and a die hard. I still see more than a few rolling around.
Those Vipers?...I hear what you're saying and I'd have to agree....they're probably butcher'd. I just hate seeing a cool car like that being mashed.
As I've said.....I can't do anything about it and I won't lose any sleep over it.
I can't totally explain it but for some reason it does bug me....
Suffice to say, if Chrysler had done what every other manufacturer does with every other test mule on the planet be it an F50 Enzo, a Corvette or a Kia Sportage, and crushed them right after they were done with them, this situation would've never existed to generate all this bad press.
Rest assured, Chrysler will not make the mistake of being nice again. It's obviously a losing proposition.
Rest assured, Chrysler will not make the mistake of being nice again. It's obviously a losing proposition.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
Those are the facts yes.....
But there IS another edge to this sword of outage that they are getting.
The Mopar community is making their voice heard about how passionate they are about Mopars in general.....might be a combination kick in the ass/wake up call. Meaning.....maybe they'll take a different route instead of trying to ride a very half ass wave of temporary success. The Caravan....win. Jeep....win....300?....maybe not so much anymore. The bloated Challengers are only selling so well and if it weren't for the police fleets the Charger would be toast. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting but it's not necessarily a bad thing for them to get an earful from the community they profess to stand for.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
You gotta wonder how many vette's Chevy donates as opposed to cruze's.
