Detroit - We Have a Problem

JLN5thAve

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2018
Messages
80
Reaction score
29
Location
New Mexico, USA
Ok - the Pearl is currently sitting at a mechanic friend of mines shop. Here be the problem..

The carb - Holly 6280 - has been rebuilt, new floats and all new plugs etc. It idles like a DREAM, however at low accel, or even mid power on the throttle she starves for gas... Will stall if you dont back off, let idle catch up and such..

I am at a loss - so I have it in long term diagnostic limbo so to speak.. I have researched, and some places have said that the lean burn system, (6280 + Sensors + EFCS = DUD) could be the cause, and to fix, replace with a non feedback 2280, and just keep the EFCS plugged in and etc to keep the plugs and everything else working right.

Other option I have seen, is replacing the sensors, such as the O2 sensor on the intake manifold, or the exhaust sensor etc. Side note - it has no smog pump or catalytic converters.. From the factory it had 3 - 2 small non-serviceable ones and 1 large replaceable.


Could it be the custom exhaust? Could it be the feedback carb? Could it be the EFCS?

What say you FMJ??
 

5th avenue Rob

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2018
Messages
53
Reaction score
26
Location
Arizona
Mine did the same thing. Check the fuel line the curve on the line is prone to pinching and bending. I rerouted my fuel line and found it was pinching off half the fuel. Its the metal line too the pump. Also replaced the three prong fuel filter. Ran better not great. I then started the leanburn removal and HEI conversion.
 

BudW

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
5,121
Reaction score
1,486
Location
Oklahoma City
Most Lean Burn (or whatever the name is on the computer) problems is not because of the computer system.
9 out of 10 times, it is a “non-computer” problem or a problem that is making a computer sensor not work correctly (like an unplugged oxygen sensor, etc.). The 9 out of 10 figure might be too low – it might be closer to 29 out of 30 issues that are non-computer related vs. 1 out of 30 that is computer related.

Unrelated, I have never been a fan of any Holley carburetor (1-bbl, 2280/6280, any 4-bbl version and especially the 2245 (2-bbl used on 360’s and 400 engines)). I have worked on way too many of them and to the point if I have one, it will get replaced with something else – if a finger ever gets pointed to it.
I prefer working on and have had a whole lot less problems with Carter’s – not saying they don’t have their issues – but in general, I have had a lot better luck working on them.

About 10 years ago, the float sunk in my ’86 Fifth Ave – to the original 6280 Holley. At the time, I found a repop Carter BBD (it is a cheap Chinese knockoff – but brand new, and has been working good for me so far) on eBay. Not sure if they are still for sale (hadn't looked). At the time, several versions were being sold, so I picked a ’77 318 automatic without Lean Burn (no computer). It is ironic that about 7 years later I purchased a ’77 318 automatic, without Lean Burn (my station wagon), but back to the story. I think the ’77 might be best calibrated carburetor out there (ie: will fit most all 318’s without much fuss).

The Carter BBD has a different choke rod height to that of a Holley 2280/6280. Also, the fuel line is routed a tad different (fuel lines should work for either carburetor – but you might have to make a slight bend to do so. Also, the vacuum hose connections are at slightly different locations – so if you have your existing vacuum diagram and one from the car the replacement is coming from – you are fine (with a little detective work).

I changed the 6280 with a new BBD, changed choke thermostat and changed vacuum hoses accordingly. The plug-in to carburetor was left undone (nothing to plug it into) and car ran just the same as it did before my float sunk. The original 6280 is sitting on a shelf in my garage (and until now, forgotten about).

In your case, if you do not want to get rid of the computer controlled carburetor, you can fix existing carburetor (if that is what your problem is), replace with a Holley 2280 (should fit without any issue) or upgrade to a Carter BBD (non-computer controlled). Your computer will keep up with ignition timing and will be attempting to control the carburetor (but computer won't know if carburetor is working, or not).


Now back to your problem – it sounds like a fuel delivery problem (weak fuel pump or air leak in fuel lines (metal or rubber) – to me.

Let me ask this, it sounds like your existing 6280 was rebuilt. Did it work the same before rebuild as it did after the rebuild?
If so, I suspect you are close but pointed slightly off direction.

Two things I would do. Being your car is thirty years old - I would bet the rubber fuel lines are, well, way past prime. If hoses show any cracking – they can suck air (which is a lot easier to do than sucking gasoline) and not be leaking fuel externally. Also, hoses can disintegrate internally, in effect can restrict or stop fuel flow because of the deterioration.

I would go get about three feet each of 5/16”, ¼” and 3/16” fuel non-fuel injection hose. You can use fuel injection hose – but it costs about 3 times more. The fuel pressure on a 318 will not see more than 7 PSI (more likely closer to 4 PSI).
Then get under car (well supported – we want you to still be with us for a long long time) and replace those hoses.
There is 3 hoses at fuel tank, 3 hoses at the hidden junction where R/F tire/wheelwell and firewall meet (not hidden, per se – just not a location people look for, for fuel hoses) and a hoses by fuel pump and another at charcoal canister.

The fuel filter has 3 hoses to it. Most (not all, but most) fuel filters come with replacement hoses. Always change those hoses when a filter is replaced. One of those 3 hoses is the fuel return.

I recommend changing the fuel tank hoses first. I also recommend taking the (still un-cut) 3-foot length of 5/16 fuel hose and place on the fuel tank fitting. Then blow through that hose to check for restriction. There will be some restriction – but not a lot. If there is a lot of restriction blowing through it, then you either have a stopped up (in-tank) filter or tank has no vent action. If hard to blow through, first loosen (or remove) gas cap. If still hard to blow through, then time to change the in-tank filter. If a lot easier now – then need to check the 3/16” fuel line/hoses to charcoal canister for restriction, for damage and/or for rust. Also take off the hose off the charcoal canister (with your un-cut 3-foot-long hose) and try to blow through it. If a lot easier – then you definitely have a 3/16” line/hose problem.

There is a replaceable air filter on bottom of charcoal canister that sometimes get stopped up (not often) or a problem in canister itself (again, not common).

During or after hose replacement, visually check every inch of the metal fuel line from fuel tank all the way to engine, for crimps, physical damage and for rust. If you think you have a rusty area, take a small screwdriver, an ice pick or something similar, to prod on the lines. If a rusty area – your prodding will find it.


The in-tank filters look like this
tank filter.PNG

from this website http://billrolikenterprises.com/search.asp?nobox=&scat=23&stext=filter&stype=&sprice=&pg=3 . There are other locations to find one, as well. The Dodge part number is 1670694.
They pull off/push on – but generally, they come off in pieces. Generally, if the fuel sender is out of car, it is wise to replace this filter while there.

This is a (poor) picture of a typical charcoal canister air filter
Charcoal Canister Filter.PNG

I went to look of the number for a replacement filter for your car – and come to find out the filter is not available - it requires a canister replacement (which is part # 4241839 (stamped 4227010)) - or some other modification.

I hope this helps.
BudW
 

5th avenue Rob

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2018
Messages
53
Reaction score
26
Location
Arizona
I am willing to donate all my lean burn parts to your cause. Sounds like you want that car original and I will be carefull removing my parts
I will let you know how my conversion goes.
 

BudW

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
5,121
Reaction score
1,486
Location
Oklahoma City
The one thing I don't like about the non-front wheel drive computers used in the ‘70’s/80’s is the lack of computer-aided diagnostics (that today’s cars have).

Todays cars, you can see what the computer sees, and it rules out a lot of things before spending time on the effected circuit.

The computers used on FMJ cars, - the diagnostic procedure is to check all normal items first. Then check each sensor for operation – which is a royal pain to do.
It helps to have a box of “known good parts” to swap out – if an item appears to have failed its test. Getting a box of “known good parts” is not easy to do now days, as it was 30 years ago.

I prefer to use Teflon tape on items that touch coolant (like heater hose fittings, coolant temp sensors, etc. – but is a BIG NO NO for sensors on these cars (the sensors ground via the pipe fitting). The newer sensors use their own ground wire (via 2-wire connectors) – so this not a problem (on newer cars).

Our cars, however, making sure the sensors are properly grounded can be a problem. If a coolant temp sensor has “something” in it's threads to prevent leaks, or if an oxygen sensor was installed into a rusty replacement exhaust manifold (I’ve seen it before) it can't work – so it takes extra time to make sure all is working.

If you are having grounding problems, a fix is to go get some of the newer 2 wire sensors, and then replace the wiring harness connector (taking the second wire and grounding it) will fix a lot of headaches. About 1990, they discovered "poor sensor grounds" and almost overnight that problem was fixed (on the then production cars).


I have gotten to the point that if it a car is confirmed to have a computer problem (which, again, doesn’t happen very often), that it might be worth the effort to replace with a non-computer controlled carburetor and ignition system - because you will have less time involved with conversion than finding the problem (and finding good replacement parts) – if your state is a non-emissions state (or community).

In my case, my ’86 Fifth works fine with a ’77 Carter BBD – but if I was to get the float fixed, the old 6280 should work fine. I have no intention of removing the original computer for a while . . . at least until I convert the car to fuel injection.
BudW
 

JLN5thAve

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2018
Messages
80
Reaction score
29
Location
New Mexico, USA
Strangely enough after securing vacuum, checking for leaks and etc - clamping the vapor return line from the fuel filter stopped the problem and it runs like an ape... of the Stripe-ed variety. Great acceleration, no lugging, and only has a little problem when the engine, and thereby all assorted temp related choke etc assemblies dont work completely perfect.
 
Back
Top