Engine control computers an opinion

compubert

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The electronic Q-jet in my 84 Monte was relatively trouble free, had to do a float (phenolic replaced with a brass) and needle / seat but when it wore out, they wanted to take my first-born and 832.99 for a new one. . Found a 70's engine to order one from and voila, no wires... I like EFI for the cold starts and whatnot but on my Dodge, I think of the carb as theft proofing... :)
 

Cordoba1

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I like EFI for the cold starts and whatnot but on my Dodge, I think of the carb as theft proofing... :)

So true. It's happened a couple of times before where I've had my car at a parking garage or even a tire shop... And the young guy tasked with moving the car couldn't start it!
 

Jack Meoff

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Original Holley 2bbl on my Fifth Ave. Bought the car for $600. Never rebuilt the carb. Roughly 65,000 trouble free miles.

Plus.




Pretty freakin reliable I'd say.
 

Master M

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Original Holley 2bbl on my Fifth Ave. Bought the car for $600. Never rebuilt the carb. Roughly 65,000 trouble free miles.

Plus.




Pretty freakin reliable I'd say.

A good carburetor cannot be beat for upfront COST and reliability. With clean fuel and air, a carburetor will last for many decades. When a freshen up is needed, the cost of a carb kit is nothing compared to the cost of troubleshooting and repairing a fuel injection system. I got stuck on vacation with an EFI car when the fuel pump went out. $400.00 for replacement. My carburetor system fuel pump was $20.00 and it is a simple repair, you could make at the side of the road if you had to.
 

kkritsilas

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The way people describe it, its like a carbureted car never started in cold temperatures. Believe it or not, they did, and as hard as it may be to believe, ran pretty good at those temperatures. Yes, they needed to be adjusted every year or two, but then, cars were not refrigerators/appliances back then; they were maintained occasionally. If a car had problems starting at cold temperatures, half the time it was a battery or electrical problem. For the times it wasn't battery/electrical, you needed to adjust, or have adjusted, your carburetor (usually the choke_, or the heat riser valve was stuck.
 

Monkeyed

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All of you have valid points and I recognize and agree with most.

Slant6billy, OBDII is a generic set of diagnostic code put on all vehicles produced in 1996 and thereafter. It was simply designed with diagnostics in mind and to be used strictly as a guide to attempt to figure out the problem at hand. There are still steps to take after reading the codes to diagnose the problem 100% Before OBDII standards were created by the SAE every manufacturer had a different way of accessing codes for their machines OBDII was a standardization so a set type and amount of data could be accessed, aiding in the diagnostic process.
I agree it is a tattle tale little $hįť "that's just so every system can run at peak efficiency" You should see how many systems I have to deal with on new Volvos at work. OY VEY!!

MasterM, look at MSD Fast XFi and Edelbrock bolt on 4bbl EFI throttle bodies to find a cheap reliable setup. Cheap being a relative term. And as for the $3500 before a simple repair, that's the result of the "technician" not following procedure properly and assuming the computer knew it all. Unfortunately this happens way too often in the flat rate mechanic world because mechanics don't want to take the time to properly diagnose the problem as it will cut into their paychecks.

I hope we can all agree on somethings and disagree on others. I'm glad we can have an intelligent coherent conversation with each other without killing morale

Slanté!

I think the misconception about OBDII comes from the fact that the check engine light is nothing more than an emissions "tattle tale pos", and that the codes thrown only show what sensor is picking up an out of spec signal. So you go to your local parts vomiter and they tell you it says "cam position sensor" on their $40 code reader. And you buy the sensor and can't figure out why it did nothing to solve your problem. I've unfortunately dealt with DEALERSHIP techs and service writers who apparently didn't know any better than that either. Well didn't know better or knew there was more money to be made by feigning ignorance.

If you have a multi thousand dollar (still hand held) diagnostics scanner AND know how to interpret all the data it gives you,.. it's the difference between a Speak and Spell, and a government mainframe. Between a remote control car, and piloting a Mars rover. Giving your kid an allowance, and balancing the Federal Government's budget. Flying a wind up paper airplane, and manning the International Space Station......... Ok, maybe not that vast of a difference, but you get the idea.
 

Mcfly68

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you guys must still watch 3 TV channels in Black and white!!!lol...kidding of course! Just remember if it wasnt for FI, there is now way you could hop into your 700hp hellcat and go to Timmies for that large DD through the drive thru with the a/c on, Led zepplin playing on the infotainment system with junior in the kid seat in the back spilling the chocolate milk all over the leather seat...and STILL pass an emissions test on the way home...FI isnt your enemy..it is your friend! You can spend just as much on a carb as you can on an entire FI system..your $200 dollar edelbrock isnt going to run that cammed and stroked 500hp LA motor worth a damn..you are into a $800 Holley. As a professional technician ( ASE master tech, Canadian red seal, Mazda Master tech) that can work on both....FI is so much easier to fix when you UNDERSTAND how the systems work and like previously mentioned can understand the data stream provided by a diagnostic system ( code readers are useless). Perfect example...finding a non code throwing misfire...with out throwing parts at it...FI..read fuel trims and your up and down streams o2's ...what they are telling you will tell you the issue....hmmm..no computer..is it ignition, fuel, exhaust ( egr), cat issue????? I dont know how many threads I have seen here where people have thrown a half dozen parts on to not fix the issue, and the recommendations are to throw more parts on instead of doing actual diagnostic procedures, and the OBD system is a huge leap forward in those procedures. For example...with a diagnostic system I can do a relative compression test ( the actual numbers mean NOTHING..it is the cylinder to cylinder balance that is important as cam timing alone could give you numbers that you would think would fail an engine) on an 8 cylinder in less than 5 minutes start to finish. When I find the low cylinder, I can jump right to a leak down test and tell you if it is rings, valves, or head gasket usually in less than 15 mins total
 
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kkritsilas

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Let me make a couple of points:

1. "You can spend just as much on a carb as you can on an entire FI system....". As soon as some carb manufacturer comes out with a carb that starts at $2K (starting price for a third party FI system) is when that statement becomes true. However, since most street carbs are in the $400-700 range, your statement is blatantly false. If you are pointing towards racing carbs, that is an apples to oranges camparison, the $2K fuel injection systems are not race ready, so you would be comparing a low cost street FI system to a very high priced race carb system.

2. If you undestand how carbs work, they are far easier to keep adjusted than the FI is, without the need to read data streams, or the multiple thousand/tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of dollares worth of equipment needed to look at those data streams. You want to use data stream reading diagnostic computers, people familliar with carbs would use things like fuel/air meters, compression/vacuum gauges, timing lights, dwell meters, etc. and all of those combined would cost 1/10 of what your diagnostic equipment would for reading data streams. Difference is, the "old school" equipment reads stuff directly, not through the accumulated interpretations of the sensor, computer, and then diagnostic equipment. And guess what, that same leak down tester many not even be required, if you know how to read a compression and vacuum gauge. Takes a little bit longer, but most of the people here are not on the clock.

3. Also note, your example of "I dont know how many threads I have seen here where people have thrown a half dozen parts on to not fix the issue, and the recommendations are to throw more parts on instead of doing actual diagnostic procedures" is also a very gross misinterpretation of what the situation is. None of the people here are there in person to witness what is going on, or to hear/see/feel the problem first hand, and the experience level of the people who are having the problems are quite varied. Some of us are here to learn, and we don't know it all; that is why the board exists, for members to help each other out, and to learn from each other. in addition, I posted about my Dodge Caravan not starting. Guess what? On the Chrysler mini-van site, I was given a list of parts to change; camshaft position sensor, crank postion sensor, and so on and so on. End result was that the van got scrapped. I didn't happen to have a piece of diagnostic equipment that would "let me read the data stream". The diagnostic system would cost more than what the van was worth.

Guess what? Cars before fuel injection, computers, and OBD II came along existed. The cars worked well and reliably. Fuel injection works well, but so do carbs. OBD II helps with diagnostics, but so does knowing how a carb, ignition, and cars in general work.

As for whether or not you can run a 500 HP LA engine with a carb, sure you can. Has been done in the past, will be done in the future. But then again, another apples and oranges comparison. Just because you don't know how to make something like that work, doesn't mean it isn't possible. Ever hear of a six pack? Ever look through the Indy Cylinder Head ads in most of the Mopar magazines? How about a 415" LA stroker (Magnum, but same basic engine) with MA-X heads making 520 HP and 500 ft.-lbs. torque? On a carb, delivered to your door for $US7695? Or a 440" LA stroker with 600 HP, 550 ft.-lbs. torque for $US10,995? Again, on a carb. Both sold as street engines. Not just me talking, on page 22 of the Feb.2016 issue of Mopar Muscle magazine (TV announcer voice: " On newsstands now").

I understand your enthusiasm for FI. But there is more than one way to skin a cat. You like EFI. Great, more power to you. However, this is an FMJ bodies board. The 707 HP Hellcat is a great engineering masterpiece, and the Chrysler (sorry FCA) engineering team deserves all the accolades that they have received for this engine. However, it is only of academic interest, has nothing to do with FMJ bodies. And, outside of third party fuel injection systems, neither do multi-thousand dollar diagnostic systems, OBD II, or factory fuel injection systems, because (with the exception of the ill-fated Imperial system) our cars didn't come with them. My daily driver 2006 Monte Carlo SS has factory fuel injection, and I enjoy driving it. But I also know that if something does go bad with the fuel injection system, I will probably need to visit the dealer, with probably $2-3K in my pocket, or don't bother visiting. My J bodies on the other hand, all have carbs. If I have a problem with them, I buy a new carb (a $350-450 carb, not an $800 carb). It may take a while for me to figure out, but they are not depended on for daily use. I also don't fear them breaking down; at worst, I will have to replace an engine ($179 at the Pick-N-Pull) or a transmission ($139 at the Pick-N-Pull). If I have a serious engine or transmission problem with the Monte Carlo, I need to seriously think about scrapping the car; no replacements at Pick-N-Pull, so a new engine is ~$10K, a new transmission is ~$6K, and this assumes that the dealer doesn't spend a day or two "diagnosing the problem" to the tune of another ~$2K. We have cars that are 25-38 years old. They will probably go another 30 years, or longer. Where do you think today's wondermobiles will be in 20 years? I think they will be at the scrap heap, decomposing, while the FMJs drive by.

So, my major point is, this isn't the right board to be talking ODB II, multiple thousand dollar diagnostic systems, and small displacement gazillion speed transmission type cars. Like the Hellcat, they are of interest, but that is pretty much where it stops. If that is what people are interested in, they would not be working on, and driving FMJs.
 
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Mcfly68

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OK..you took what I said very wrong...I didnt say you couldnt run a 500 hp la with out a carb..I said it aint happening with a $200 edelbrock carb..FI tech has a FI system for less than $1000 ( the stand alone system for my hemi was $1300)...price a six pack set up...$1400 last I checked. I like carbs, they are fun to play with. I have had 11 sec roadrunners with carbs back when 11 sec was extremely fast street cars. I can tune carbs and tune distributors and have helped people on here set up their ignition curves. You can buy a used genisis scan tool for $400...my snap on timing light cost that much ( hell my compression gauge was $200). Everyone was bashing computers, so i put my 2 cents in the pro column. I have yet to run into any issue with FI that can't be diaged in less than 2 hrs, it is self calibrating everytime the key is turned on so no adjusting to do. Fuel injection today ( 80's FI was garbage) is some big scary beast for some reason, yet is more reliable than ever where you are going 100,000 miles before doing anything other than oil changes. I have been stranded by "analog" cars more often than FI cars over the years..everyone has stories. For driveability, reliability, economy, and power you cant beat Fuel injection. Most NA 2.0l today has more power than a stock 360 aspen, gets 40 mpg.starts perfectly in -40 or +40 and every where in between and very little goes wrong with it today and is really no more to fix than anything else.
 

metallicaman0258

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Good debate fellas. I'm in the FI crowd. Personally I believe it cant be beat. All posts have both good and negative points on this subject and it all boils down to a preference. More seasoned veterans of our hobby will mostly prefer carbs over FI and maybe the newer people in our hobby will prefer FI. Either side isn't "wrong", and adversely either side isn't "right"
 

Monkeyed

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To be fair, the thread did ask for opinions.. I can't afford a 707HP hellcat. I don't do financing, and don't have that kind of cash. I have been kicking the idea around of pulling the carved motor out and dropping in an early 90s tbi. I've even found a couple potential 2wd donor trucks for $7-800 nearby. Ideally I'd pull the motors/trans/electrical/etc out of both and do a straight swap, but there are a handful of unknowns involved, not to mention what to do with the leftovers. Ideally I'd probably scrap the truck body, keep the frame and drop an old school 30s body on it and make a wicked rat rod out of it, but again, time money and energy to tackle something like that are limited. Just don't have the resources currently to make it happen. So.. just limping and bandaiding the 5th along. 12,000 miles in 2 years with little to no winter driving ain't bad out of a $600 car that was being made offers on by scrappers.
 

Dr Lebaron

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I'd go back to steam if I could.
Or use nuclear to produce steam.
Sometimes I want to go back to points and condenser.

If there's a problem, 3 hand tools and 5 minutes and it's fixed.
 

NoCar340

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MegaSquirt II v3.0 ECM (with real-time baro correction, closed-loop boost control, distributorless ignition control, etc.), intake, fuel rails, 1250CFM billet throttle body, AIT/CLT/throttle position sensors, 83lb/hr Siemens/Deka fuel injectors, and 118GPH Walbro E85 fuel pump cost me less than a blow-through carb would've for my turbo setup. No worries about ethanol content--in fact, I'm using a fuel-quality sensor to adjust boost and timing for E85, which is around 104 octane but would quickly kill an OE fuel system in these cars--no limitations of a mechanical advance curve (this is huge), no concerns about vapor lock, instant starts, and much-better fuel economy at the same power level. No need to re-jet for the track; one correctly-done fuel map can make both max MPG and horsepower. None of the fuel-distribution issues inherent with a carburetor. No suffering when the road leads to the mountains due to changing air density. What was the upside to a carb again? :D

I've had a lot of fun with carbureted engines over the years, and yes, they can work very well when tuned and maintained properly. I have no problem with them, nor will I argue/denigrate/ridicule someone that chooses to stick with the old ways. The truth is, technology offers a far-better solution and I chose to take it for all three of my project cars. The MegaSquirt ECM is an inexpensive way to to it (under $300 if you build it yourself), but it requires a lot more work--primarily research, i.e. reading. Of course, some fabrication/creativity is always needed when converting a carbureted car. But MS-II has all the bells and whistles I need, and most of what's offered in much-more-expensive engine-management systems. To me, the process itself is fascinating and the results will be more than worth it. In fact, I'm currently rebuilding an 850 ThermoQuad for a friend of mine's '72 Town & Country wagon, and for the first time I actually dislike doing it. It just seems so archaic and pointless now after all I've learned and what I know of EFI's capabilities... but it's what he wants, and that's cool. :cool:

Oh, and if all goes according to plan I'll be able to send a Hellcat packing... I might not have 707 flywheel horsepower, but then again I just might have that and then some. I won't know until it hits the dyno. One thing I won't have? The Hellcat's staggering 4,500lb+ curb weight. :eek:
 
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