Silverstreak90
Member
Are fuel separation systems like Fass Fuel really effective? What are its benefits to diesel vehicles?
Fuel Separation Systems
- Thread starter Silverstreak90
- Start date
For gasoline engines (carbureted or low pressure injected), I don’t see any advantage to using it.
My diesel pickup is 12 valve version ('97) and it uses a mechanical lift up (camshaft driven) that supplies fuel to the (mechanical) fuel injection pump.
The 24 valve versions (came out mid-year 1998 to present), use an electric lift pump. Those lift pumps (and injection pumps) have way shortened lifespans if not supplied enough fuel pressure. They are very picky about fuel filters being changed often – for even a restricted fuel filter can also cause shortened lift pump & injection pump lifespans.
A fuel injection pump for 1998 to 2002 is about $3,500 (US) for parts and labor. The fuel lift pump is another, about $800 (US).
There are a few different theories as to why the FASS system reduces the fuel injection pump failure rate (huge difference, or reduction, in failure rate - to almost nil) after installing one. I don’t know which theory is correct, if not all of them are, but it is well worth the money to install one, if you have the Dodge electric lift pump version diesel.
What I like about the FASS system is it uses two fuel filters side by side (which each are the size of a PH8A oil filter). The factory fuel filters are a cartridge style (no can) and just a bit shorter than the PH8A oil filter size – which the FASS system bypasses.
Dodge says to change those fuel filters every 30k miles. As expensive as the fuel injector pump/lift pumps are, I would change (a non-FASS) fuel filter every oil change.
I looked long and hard to get the 12 valve diesel that I do have.
It has an engine computer on the firewall, but sense my truck is a 5-speed, the only thing the ECM does is send the crank position signal to TACH and control the alternator output.
If I had an automatic transmission, then it would control it, as well.
Matter of fact, if I was to take a hose clamp, I could use it to keep the fuel shut off solenoid in a stuck on condition, park the vehicle on a hill, remove both batteries, have gravity start the truck and drive off without the batteries. No lights or radio, and wouldn’t be able to turn truck off - but no electricity needed. One can’t say that about most vehicles (diesel or otherwise).
Also, I can burn just about any liquid (in the fuel tank), except for gasoline and water (and a few other liquids). I don’t have plans of performing either to my truck – but at least I could, if I had to.
BudW
My diesel pickup is 12 valve version ('97) and it uses a mechanical lift up (camshaft driven) that supplies fuel to the (mechanical) fuel injection pump.
The 24 valve versions (came out mid-year 1998 to present), use an electric lift pump. Those lift pumps (and injection pumps) have way shortened lifespans if not supplied enough fuel pressure. They are very picky about fuel filters being changed often – for even a restricted fuel filter can also cause shortened lift pump & injection pump lifespans.
A fuel injection pump for 1998 to 2002 is about $3,500 (US) for parts and labor. The fuel lift pump is another, about $800 (US).
There are a few different theories as to why the FASS system reduces the fuel injection pump failure rate (huge difference, or reduction, in failure rate - to almost nil) after installing one. I don’t know which theory is correct, if not all of them are, but it is well worth the money to install one, if you have the Dodge electric lift pump version diesel.
What I like about the FASS system is it uses two fuel filters side by side (which each are the size of a PH8A oil filter). The factory fuel filters are a cartridge style (no can) and just a bit shorter than the PH8A oil filter size – which the FASS system bypasses.
Dodge says to change those fuel filters every 30k miles. As expensive as the fuel injector pump/lift pumps are, I would change (a non-FASS) fuel filter every oil change.
I looked long and hard to get the 12 valve diesel that I do have.
It has an engine computer on the firewall, but sense my truck is a 5-speed, the only thing the ECM does is send the crank position signal to TACH and control the alternator output.
If I had an automatic transmission, then it would control it, as well.
Matter of fact, if I was to take a hose clamp, I could use it to keep the fuel shut off solenoid in a stuck on condition, park the vehicle on a hill, remove both batteries, have gravity start the truck and drive off without the batteries. No lights or radio, and wouldn’t be able to turn truck off - but no electricity needed. One can’t say that about most vehicles (diesel or otherwise).
Also, I can burn just about any liquid (in the fuel tank), except for gasoline and water (and a few other liquids). I don’t have plans of performing either to my truck – but at least I could, if I had to.
BudW
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
All I can add is from my experience at work over the years, you can't filter diesel fuel too much. It's even more important with the modern electronic diesels. Doesn't take very much contamination to cause problems, expensive problems.
Silverstreak90
Member
Thanks for enlightening me about it guys. To be honest, I just read something about it and was curious if it would be beneficial if I will install it on my Ford ecoboost truck.
Diesel engines need high pressure to get its job done, which is about 30,000 PSI. Some newer gasoline engines are getting very high PSI systems now, mainly direct injection vehicles.
Diesel fuel has some lubrication properties – but not as much now as it did have (with the ultra-low sulfur diesel they have out now) a few years ago.
Gasoline has no lubrication properties – which is one thing I wonder about the longtivity of high pressure (gasoline) fuel pumps
Will a FASS system benefit a vehicle like your EcoBoost, I don’t have data to answer that. I say it won’t hurt anything.
The next question is will cost benefit. For a ’98-02 Dodge diesel, it is about $750.00 to protect $5,000+ (each time) injection pump system - and does its job very well – so great example of an ounce of prevention = pound of cure (or however that phrase is worded).
In the case of a typical Ford EcoBoost pickup, I’m not sure a $750 system is worth protecting a $750 high pressure fuel pump.
BudW
Diesel fuel has some lubrication properties – but not as much now as it did have (with the ultra-low sulfur diesel they have out now) a few years ago.
Gasoline has no lubrication properties – which is one thing I wonder about the longtivity of high pressure (gasoline) fuel pumps
Will a FASS system benefit a vehicle like your EcoBoost, I don’t have data to answer that. I say it won’t hurt anything.
The next question is will cost benefit. For a ’98-02 Dodge diesel, it is about $750.00 to protect $5,000+ (each time) injection pump system - and does its job very well – so great example of an ounce of prevention = pound of cure (or however that phrase is worded).
In the case of a typical Ford EcoBoost pickup, I’m not sure a $750 system is worth protecting a $750 high pressure fuel pump.
BudW
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's worth the price, or needed, on your Ecoboost. They are direct injected gasoline engines and do have fuel pressure after the pump (the mechanical one on the engine) upwards of 2,500 psi. They are a returnless system and don't really pump that much fuel. In fact, there is no fuel filter other than the sock on the in tank electric lift pump. A filter just isn't necessary. Since the first direct injected gas engines came out, about the only problem I've ever seen is the 2.0L Audi/VW that would wear the lobes on the camshaft down so the pump wouldn't pump anymore. That was a camshaft manufacturing problem, not fuel related.
On a side note: Even though Ford doesn't require synthetic in the Ecoboost, I would HIGHLY recommend using it anyways. Not only for turbo bearing life but to prevent carbon build up on the intake valves. With no fuel spraying on them, only air and oil vapor from the crankcase ventilation system is in there. Conventional oil has high volitility which means it "evaporates" easier, which means more oil vapor pulled into the PCV system and then,,,,,,,,,,,more carbon forms. Not only on the vavles but potentially on the piston rings, that then stick. Synthetic doesn't have this problem. Plus, there are tiny oil orifices, like for the variable cam timing system, that can get easily plugged with conventional oils crust (or hard sludge). I know synthetic costs more but in the long run, it'll be much cheaper. All that's the reason so many manufactures require synthetic in their direct injected engines. I just had a 2012 Equinox engine apart at work, 72,000 miles and the timing chain stretched so much that the valves got bent. Black crust on everything, plugged oil passages, etc......Cost the customer almost $2,000 for repair. Main reason? They never used synthetic oil, even though it says right on the oil cap "DEXOS REQUIRED". OK, oil school is dismissed for the day, lol!
On a side note: Even though Ford doesn't require synthetic in the Ecoboost, I would HIGHLY recommend using it anyways. Not only for turbo bearing life but to prevent carbon build up on the intake valves. With no fuel spraying on them, only air and oil vapor from the crankcase ventilation system is in there. Conventional oil has high volitility which means it "evaporates" easier, which means more oil vapor pulled into the PCV system and then,,,,,,,,,,,more carbon forms. Not only on the vavles but potentially on the piston rings, that then stick. Synthetic doesn't have this problem. Plus, there are tiny oil orifices, like for the variable cam timing system, that can get easily plugged with conventional oils crust (or hard sludge). I know synthetic costs more but in the long run, it'll be much cheaper. All that's the reason so many manufactures require synthetic in their direct injected engines. I just had a 2012 Equinox engine apart at work, 72,000 miles and the timing chain stretched so much that the valves got bent. Black crust on everything, plugged oil passages, etc......Cost the customer almost $2,000 for repair. Main reason? They never used synthetic oil, even though it says right on the oil cap "DEXOS REQUIRED". OK, oil school is dismissed for the day, lol!
I agree with Aspen500, for the reasons he mentions, as well as the turbo is making a smaller engine work harder (as a larger engine). If you work harder, it wears out the oil faster as well as is harder on things like turbos, etc.
If I recall correctly, Ford says to change oil every 7,500 miles on your vehicle.
I wouldn’t recommend going beyond 5k miles, if not every 3k miles. I’ve seen too many of those EcoBoost F150 engines and turbos expire before they should have, and engines were quite sludgie (spelling?) inside – a lot more so than what I typically see.
I just now saw the 7,500 mile intervals – and started laughing.
The Terrain, Enclave and Traverse car line (not sure if it’s an SUV or a minivan) is one heck of an expensive vehicle to own. It might be THE most expensive vehicle to own, just in upkeep and repairs.
The timing chains (which is no easy repair), steering racks, P/S pumps, oil pan gaskets and a long list of other items, break a lost more often than industry standard and are a LOT MORE EXPENSIVE to fix than most cars are. My opinion, that is one expensive car line, to own one of.
I don't think you can get a timing chain or a steering rack to last longer than 60-80k miles on a Terrain, an Enclave or on a Traverse.
/Rant over.
BudW
If I recall correctly, Ford says to change oil every 7,500 miles on your vehicle.
I wouldn’t recommend going beyond 5k miles, if not every 3k miles. I’ve seen too many of those EcoBoost F150 engines and turbos expire before they should have, and engines were quite sludgie (spelling?) inside – a lot more so than what I typically see.
I just now saw the 7,500 mile intervals – and started laughing.
The Terrain, Enclave and Traverse car line (not sure if it’s an SUV or a minivan) is one heck of an expensive vehicle to own. It might be THE most expensive vehicle to own, just in upkeep and repairs.
The timing chains (which is no easy repair), steering racks, P/S pumps, oil pan gaskets and a long list of other items, break a lost more often than industry standard and are a LOT MORE EXPENSIVE to fix than most cars are. My opinion, that is one expensive car line, to own one of.
I don't think you can get a timing chain or a steering rack to last longer than 60-80k miles on a Terrain, an Enclave or on a Traverse.
/Rant over.
BudW
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
I know this is off the original topic but................
The Terrain/Enclave/Traverse and Equinox (and GMC's version) are what we in the business call job security along with any GM that has the 3.6L V-6 like the GMC Acadia for example. I have the timing chains on those down to a science. You have to drop the entire powertrain out to do it but they are actually designed where it's not really all that much work to do, amazingly enough. A couple hours and the body is in the air, the powertrain/suspension/steering is sitting on 4 jack stands on the floor. THEN the work starts, lol. The 2.4L EcoTech's are timing chain eaters also (like the Equinox with bent valves I mentioned) , ESPECIALLY those that haven't had synthetic oil and, worse yet, only get the oil changed when the reminder comes on in the dash. Even with synthetic, I wouldn't go over 5,000 miles between changes.
We have already changed turbo's on the Ecoboost truck engines due to bearing failure. Again, mainly due to conventional oil along with not frequent enough oil changes. A couple have needed timing chains too, for the same reason. Compared with doing the chains/guides in the gM vehicles though, the Ford's SUCK for the most part.
With the modern engine, conventional oil and extended service intervals equals sludge and that black crust, along with all the collateral damage that goes along with it.
BTW, I'm an auto tech at an independent repair shop so I get to see what's happening in the real world of vehicles. How anyone could spend $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 and up on a new vehicle and then not maintain it is beyond me.
Let's not forget the front struts leaking and shot at 40,000 miles on the Acadia's and equivelent also. You're right, also steering racks, A/C evaporators, A/C condensors, heater cores, crash sensors, ABS sensors, front hubs, etc, etc, etc.........I suppose though, if cars and trucks didn't break, I'd be out of a job.
The Terrain/Enclave/Traverse and Equinox (and GMC's version) are what we in the business call job security along with any GM that has the 3.6L V-6 like the GMC Acadia for example. I have the timing chains on those down to a science. You have to drop the entire powertrain out to do it but they are actually designed where it's not really all that much work to do, amazingly enough. A couple hours and the body is in the air, the powertrain/suspension/steering is sitting on 4 jack stands on the floor. THEN the work starts, lol. The 2.4L EcoTech's are timing chain eaters also (like the Equinox with bent valves I mentioned) , ESPECIALLY those that haven't had synthetic oil and, worse yet, only get the oil changed when the reminder comes on in the dash. Even with synthetic, I wouldn't go over 5,000 miles between changes.
We have already changed turbo's on the Ecoboost truck engines due to bearing failure. Again, mainly due to conventional oil along with not frequent enough oil changes. A couple have needed timing chains too, for the same reason. Compared with doing the chains/guides in the gM vehicles though, the Ford's SUCK for the most part.
With the modern engine, conventional oil and extended service intervals equals sludge and that black crust, along with all the collateral damage that goes along with it.
BTW, I'm an auto tech at an independent repair shop so I get to see what's happening in the real world of vehicles. How anyone could spend $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 and up on a new vehicle and then not maintain it is beyond me.
Let's not forget the front struts leaking and shot at 40,000 miles on the Acadia's and equivelent also. You're right, also steering racks, A/C evaporators, A/C condensors, heater cores, crash sensors, ABS sensors, front hubs, etc, etc, etc.........I suppose though, if cars and trucks didn't break, I'd be out of a job.
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