I have a few questions pertaining to a 1988 5th Avenue :)

[8v-of-fury]

:sunny: What's up EVERYONE!? How are you enjoying this beautiful day wherever you are?

The air still works on this old girl because it is my grandmothers car (which she is driving less and less and I am driving more and more due to age of both her and the car LOL) and she always made sure the garage kept the air-con working as it is essential for a summer spent near the rain-forest that is Toronto in the summer (anywhere near the great lakes really.. hah). However the air doesn't seem to be as cold as it could be, yet judging by other conversations the compressor seems to be cycling an appropriate amount of time. So I feel as though it just may be down on refrigerant. Now, I have no idea what refrigerant is in there but I want to assume it is the older stuff because the car was always at an old family friends shop. I doubt they would have retro'd new refrigerant and I don't recall that ever happening. Do I continue to use the old stuff or is it in my best interest to change it out for the newer refrigerant? My brother also works at a shop so it shouldn't be too big of a deal.

However what I have noticed is that when I have the air on the car likes to stall out sometimes when I am stopped and in drive. If I pull out to neutral, it does not seem to want to. Which leads me to believe I have my idle set too low, but then if I turn it up any the rear end SLAMS in to Drive or Reverse when coming out of park or going between gears. Now, could that just be exacerbated because of bad bushings out back? Sounding like the rear end is slamming when really it is just being normal?

Also I have noticed another issue it seems where when the brakes are pushed there is a more noticeable stumble in the idle... ? Every 7th cylinder firing is experiencing the miss it feels like.. seems like only when the brakes are applied. I am 4000kms from the car right now so I can not provide any more real information, but I will be driving it again in 2 weeks when I fly back home.



ps. I was thinking of getting a Holley on there, for ease of EVERYTHING related to Air/Fuel. Thoughts.?

 

[Cordoba1]

Hi there! Based on your description of symptoms, there’s a whole lot going on. If you plan to keep the car in the family for a while, I’d recommend having your friends shop conduct a comprehensive tune-up; since they are familiar with the car.

A/C: The compressor can easily draw as much as 10HP from the drive belt; so if the car isn’t in good tune, it easily kill it at idle. As far as the refrigerant goes, most of the time you can see that an adapter was added on top of the compressor to accept the newer hose style. If your system is still working, and your shop still has access to R12, I would personally not move forward with a conversion. If your shop can’t get R12 at a reasonable price, then it would be okay to switch to R134a. There’s a recent discussion here on the board on how to do it right (Flushing, changing the system oil, new drier, applying vacuum to the system, etc), I’d read that thread.

Drivability: Your car needs a tune-up! The carb could need rebuilding, as well. All things being equal, if all of the under-hood electronics and vacuum systems are decent, I wouldn’t swap out the carb. Since your local shop has been really involved in maintaining the car, they should be able to provide you honest advice.

Transmission: Not sure; could be as simple as sloppy U-Joints – but the reluctance to go to neutral concerns me. Get it checked out before you break something.

I’d seriously recommend talking to your grandmother’s shop… They’ll probably give you some honest advice.
Good luck!

 

[Aspen500]

If the service ports have EXTERNAL threads, it's R12. If the caps are larger and have the fittings have INTERNAL threads, it's R134a. If it had been converted by a reputable shop, there'd also be a blue sticker to say it's been converted.

Not many shops have R12 anymore. It was phased out of production over 20 years ago. What is out there is not exactly cheap. The shop I work at has one 30 lb bottle remaining and the going price in this area is $120 a pound. Mostly a moot point since the last cars to have R12 were made in 1992 (or was it 1993????) and the majority of those that are still around have been converted long ago or,,,,,,the A/C doesn't work anymore.

Converting isn't that big a deal. As Cordoba1 said, a system flush to get the mineral oil out, a new dryer, change the binary pressure switch to a trinary switch (goes in the same place and same connector), screw on the R134a adapter fittings to the original R12 service ports, add the correct amount of PAG oil and the charge to 80% of the R12 capacity with R134a and done.
BTW, the binary pressure switch only opens for low pressure. The trinary opens for low AND high pressure. It's a safety measure since R134a runs at roughly twice the high side pressure that R12 does.
The original hoses (provided they're in good condition) will be fine. The mineral oil that was in them over time makes them inpervious to R134a molecules which are smaller than R12. That's why R134a uses barrier hose with a nylon liner, otherwise the refrigerant would seep through the hose.
Only downside to R134a and it's higher pressure is it takes more power to run the compressor.

 

[8v-of-fury]

I did the ELB/ESA delete in May of 2014 myself. At that time I also upgraded to an edelbrock aluminum 4v intake with a 850TQ mounted on it. This deletion/swap included the addition of brand new mechanical distributor w/vacuum advance and an orange ignition box.

At the time of the ELB/ESA removal I did a full tune-up as well as rebuilt the Thermoquad. The distributor has a WILD advance curve so I had to set base timing to about 0-1* Advance. Without an A/F I really have no idea how it is running. It was running great, except the idle SOMETIMES. I got about 14mpg out of it when I drove it all last week, that was about 75% highway.

@Corodba1 The shop really hasn't done much of anything in the last 10 years but keeping the Air-con working and other SMALL maintenance items. So the A/C is about all they'd have info on. Also I never mentioned any reluctance to go in to neutral ? LOL The car has done this hard shift for as long as I can remember, but it doesn't seem correct. The vacuum system under-hood has been more or less removed. I think the only thing pulling vacuum would be the brake booster and the climate controls iirc.

@Aspen500 I have no idea on the fittings at the moment, I will have to get back to you in 2 weeks when I am back with the car lol.


I honestly think the carb is giving me the most issue being that it is literally an unknown, with perhaps a little too retarded timing adding some issue in there. That is the reason I suggested getting a quality aftermarket carb on there.

 

[Master M]

Hello, I would not convert your a/c to R-134. Head pressure runs high, and drags the engine performance. If it has been converted you can still get rid of the R-134 refrigerant. Duracool refrigerant can replace R-12 or R-134. It can be mixed with either refrigerant also. I topped off an R-12 system with a can of Duracool and ran the a/c system in that car for 10 years without ever adding any more refrigerant, and it was ice cold. I won't use any other refrigerant in any of my auto a/c systems. Duracool runs lower head pressures, has superior lubricating qualities, has a larger molecular structure which prevents leakage ( no barrier hoses needed ) and you only need about 1/3 of it to fill your system compared to R-12. It is also marginally colder than R-12. The cans of Duracool take the same fitiings as R-134 Here is a link. http://www.duracool.com/

 

[Jack Meoff]

I did the ELB/ESA delete in May of 2014 myself. At that time I also upgraded to an edelbrock aluminum 4v intake with a 850TQ mounted on it. This deletion/swap included the addition of brand new mechanical distributor w/vacuum advance and an orange ignition box.

At the time of the ELB/ESA removal I did a full tune-up as well as rebuilt the Thermoquad. The distributor has a WILD advance curve so I had to set base timing to about 0-1* Advance. Without an A/F I really have no idea how it is running. It was running great, except the idle SOMETIMES. I got about 14mpg out of it when I drove it all last week, that was about 75% highway.

@Corodba1 The shop really hasn't done much of anything in the last 10 years but keeping the Air-con working and other SMALL maintenance items. So the A/C is about all they'd have info on. Also I never mentioned any reluctance to go in to neutral ? LOL The car has done this hard shift for as long as I can remember, but it doesn't seem correct. The vacuum system under-hood has been more or less removed. I think the only thing pulling vacuum would be the brake booster and the climate controls iirc.

@Aspen500 I have no idea on the fittings at the moment, I will have to get back to you in 2 weeks when I am back with the car lol.


I honestly think the carb is giving me the most issue being that it is literally an unknown, with perhaps a little too retarded timing adding some issue in there. That is the reason I suggested getting a quality aftermarket carb on there.

The first thing I thought of was a vacuum leak somewhere.
I'm no expert but the carb might be a good place to start looking. Rebuild or replace? As mentioned the clunk may be worn out U joints. If it's shifting fine than that would be high on my suspicion list. Not sure if you have a reputable shop that knows older cars. If so having them help you troubleshoot the car would be a good idea. Might just be a group of small things making for a bigger problem.

 

[ramenth]

Also I have noticed another issue it seems where when the brakes are pushed there is a more noticeable stumble in the idle... ? Every 7th cylinder firing is experiencing the miss it feels like.. seems like only when the brakes are applied.

Since the A/C has already been addressed with some good advice, let's hone in this.

Plug wires are breaking down. You description pretty much nails it down. Which is exacerbated when the AC is on. "Stumble" (misfire) gone when it's as speed?

Easy enough to test. Crank the car, spray the wires down with a little soapy water. Listen for snapping as the plugs arc to the closest metal. Watching for sparking. Want a real light show? Do it at night.

 

[8v-of-fury]

Interesting! That very well could be it!

It goes away at speed, except I think one time while driving it before it got to operating temps it had a stumble trying to accelerate when in the low rpms of 3rd gear. Could just have been the choke was still on or the likes.

The wires, plugs, cap/rotor and entire distributor are all new and have less than 2500kms on them. But they still could be arcing i suppose.

 

[8v-of-fury]

Could this be that the idle is too low and timing too retarded as well? Cause if you shift to N and the idle is allowed to come up with no load on the engine there is either no miss or very little of one.

ALSO SOMETHING I FORGOT to mention, when the engine does stall out.. it takes FOREVER to crank back up again.. like 30+ seconds of cranking. Foot to the floor like its flooded and cranking - nothing. Pump it a million times like it wants fuel - nothing. Then it catches and fires off on the next rotation and runs normally.

 

[Jack Meoff]

A couple of things.
The cap, rotor and wires. What kind are they?
Good quality? I ask because I've heard more than one story of Chinese champion caps going south very quickly and cheap wires are exactly that.....cheap.

Also did you replace the fuel filter? There could be a fuel delivery issue somewhere. As far as the idle goes....your curb idle should be listed on the sticker on the rad support.

Timing.....
Without a timing gun and knowing that the TDC mark is indeed correct. I always use my "sweet spot" method.

Loosen the bolt on the distributor just enough to be able to turn it and slowly turn it in both directions while the car is running. As you retard it'll start to get rough then as you advance it it'll start to get rough.
Find the sweet spot in the middle tighten it up and you're in a very close ballpark. However this should be done after all the other issues have been addressed first.

 

[8v-of-fury]

A couple of things.
The cap, rotor and wires. What kind are they?
Good quality? I ask because I've heard more than one story of Chinese champion caps going south very quickly and cheap wires are exactly that.....cheap.

Also did you replace the fuel filter? There could be a fuel delivery issue somewhere. As far as the idle goes....your curb idle should be listed on the sticker on the rad support.

Timing.....
Without a timing gun and knowing that the TDC mark is indeed correct. I always use my "sweet spot" method.

Loosen the bolt on the distributor just enough to be able to turn it and slowly turn it in both directions while the car is running. As you retard it'll start to get rough then as you advance it it'll start to get rough.
Find the sweet spot in the middle tighten it up and you're in a very close ballpark. However this should be done after all the other issues have been addressed first.

I do not remember the brand of cap/rotor/wires.. I got them from my local AutoHaus. I doubt they are the best quality, but i do not think they were HORRIBLE either.

Yuo, fuel filter was replaced at the same time as the tune-up. Idle is set to where it isn't running away when in gear at a stoplight, and isn't dieing out when sitting at a redlight I dont have a tach in this car, but i guess i could gt one on there temp styles to see what is up.

Timing is set to about 0-1* ATDC. That is where it needed to be set to deal with the amount of advance the distributor has, and not ping when you took it out for a spin and really got on the throttle. Hopefully I can mess with the advance springs and maybe remove one, or get more appropriate springs in there.. Or run some 91 .

 

[8v-of-fury]

MY wires do seem to be crossed a bit though! I don't know if they still look like this however as this was DURING the ELB/ESA delete/swap.

 

[Jack Meoff]

Wires and cap look okay.
Looks like a blue streak cap.
I'd still try Robert's test.