New rear boingers

NoCar340

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So, I called my friendly local spring shop and ordered new springs for the Imperial. They did not have the cop-spec springs readily available, but instead offered to customize a set of the 4-leaf springs for me at the same price. I agreed, and ordered them. I was very excited to get the call Wednesday afternoon that they'd arrived and been modified for my application, but my joy turned to disgust pretty quickly. Despite that shop not having them even available for several years (including the last time I ordered a set), these somehow came through with the God-awful oval front spring eye. The extra leaf is a nice, beefy full-length piece, though. Probably a little heavier than an actual cop spring, in fact, which is a good thing.

I won't say "there's $260 down the tubes" but I sort of feel that way. I may order poly bushings and push out the rubber crap to correct them somewhat, but that's an expense I didn't think I'd have to make. Then again, with the sliders out back rather than shackles, maybe it won't be that bad. I really would've much preferred the round eye, and had I known this was going to happen I would've ordered the Firm Feel E-body spring hangers and a set of E-body XHD springs from Summit for around the same money. I might just sell 'em and take that route still.

Oh, well, at least I shopped locally!

Side note: these came with iso-clamp pilot adapters, needed for using a non-iso rear in a car with the iso-clamp spring setup. I need to remove them. I now have about 10 sets of these, so if you're keeping your iso stuff but want to run the 8.75" rear, let me know via PM. $10/shipped to the US, probably $15 to Canada.

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NoCar340

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In my quest to rid myself of all things iso-clamp, I also ordered up a set of the American Muscle rear shock plates for B/E-body applications. My thinking here was I'm having a tough time getting to the boneyard this summer, and even then I'll get rusty originals that may break during disassembly. For what guys are asking for cleaned-up, pitted used ones, $105 seemed pretty easy to swallow (carshopinc.com).

These turned out to be a very pleasant surprise. Extremely well-built pieces, certainly stronger than the originals... and of course, not beat up or fatigued from 40+ years under a car! Yes, that's the part number taped to one of 'em.

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72Dodge

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Interesting. I actually saw this when you posted it, and took note for future reference. I've read a lot about this swap, but some questions still linger:

Is it better to use B-body or E-body springs?

I see the FirmFeel front spring hangers, and the Mopar Performance P4120081 ones. Are these essentially the same? Is either offset? I see the FirmFeel ones say they're for e-body springs, and the MP ones say they're for b-body SS or a-body springs. True story, or...?

If swapping to a b-body '67 8.75 with b-body shock plates and shocks, would I then use a b-body anti-sway bar?

What shackles do I then use, and are any modifications necessary? (of course I assume if I go with an offset front hanger, I'd use an offset shackle, but which ones go with which? I only see A/B/E body shackles listed, nothing for an FMJ application).


EDIT: Aha, so I found this post (of yours) and in it you answer most of my questions, except for the above:
http://www.forfmjbodiesonly.com/classicmopar/showthread.php?2779-rear-end-swap
 
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NoCar340

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Well, the issue is obviously with the spring lengths. The B-body spring is the same length as the FMJ spring, but the center pin is moved forward 2". The E-body spring has the same pin location in relation to the spring eye as the B spring, but it's 1" shorter overall than either the FMJ or B parts. So why does the aftermarket offer a spring hanger for the E and not the B? Because to put the center pin in the same location as the original axle, your rear spring eye would be 2" further back putting your shackle at an undesirable angle. The further off vertical the shackle, the less effective the spring will be. So, short answer, if you're not going to use an FMJ spring you should use the E-body piece. Or do you?

Now, let's add to that confusion: Super Stock springs! There are B, E, and A-body variants of the spring according to the old literature, but they're all the same in the length department. The "application information" regarding body style is just there due to expected weight of the race car. In all applications, the front segment is 20", and the rear is 36". Period. As it happens, A-bodies used a 20" front segment from the factory, which is why there's no Super Stock hanger for them.

Still got it straight? The Mopar oval-track springs have a 20.5" front segment, and a 35" rear segment, so they're a half-inch shorter than a Super Stock but actually move the rear axle back half an inch (when used with a SS hanger). The dimensions give a little extra wheelbase for stability while allowing a shackle angle that best lets the spring work for roundy-round work.

OK, enough confusion. The skinny on spring lengths:

A-body = 55" overall; 20" front segment, 35" rear
B-body = 58" overall; 22" front segment, 36" rear
E-body = 57" overall; 22" front segment, 35" rear
F/M/J-body = 58" overall; 24" front segment, 34" rear
Super Stock (all applications) = 56" overall; 20" front segment, 36" rear (illegitimate love child of an A & B-body love affair)
Circle Track (all applications) = 55.5" overall; 20.5" front segment, 35" rear (all the other springs look at it weird)

The FMJ car uses the longest front segment as a concession to noise, vibration, and harshness, along with its miserable oval front spring eye and the iso-clamp setup, the latter of course being a hand-me-down from later B & C bodies. It also makes it the worst setup of the bunch for any other application other than floating down the road. I consider the iso-clamps a "must go" situation personally, suitable only for 100-point restorations. The "positive" effect on ride quality is negligible but they allow way too much slop in the springs for decent handling or launches. They allow too much side loading of the springs, causing bushing pinch and not allowing the spring to work. Yes, even with poly isolators. Does poly flex less? Yes. The operative word is "less". They still flex, and flex is bad.

The Mopar design, being an asymmetrical semi-elliptical spring, allows for good cushioning of minor road irregularities to be handled by the long, thin rear segment while the short, stout front segment acts more like a control arm. This is why I laugh every time I see "slapper" traction bars on a Mopar: they don't do anything. Ever. I have yet to see one with worn snubbers, but if I did it would probably be on the rubbery FMJ design. The FMJ spring is still plenty asymmetric, though, and a lot can be gained by just eliminating the iso-clamps and using higher-durometer front eye bushings. For better launches, as with any solid-axle Mopar RWD car, an adjustable pinion snubber is a great idea, too. If you're considering one of those, go with the American Muscle one with the threaded adjuster. Experience has taught me a couple of times that there's no happy place with the pin-type snubber MP sells. It bashes the floorpan pretty hard at stock ride height with stock springs, to the point where it will tear the rubber off and deform the floorpan. Once that rubber's gone, the banging on the floor is loud as hell, too.

It all comes down to ultimate goal. In the case of my Imperial, I went with the FMJ springs because I'd wanted to keep the ride quality a little soft as a concession to daily driver usage, and improve handling with a round spring eye, solidly-mounted springs, and a rear swaybar. The B-body shocks are a much better design than the stud-mount FMJ for both function and longevity, as well as offering a much greater array of choices for any application.

Another scenario would be using a stock A-body spring with the correct FMJ Super Stock hangers. In that scenario, you'd likely want to use a spring from something like a 383/440 car or a cop application ('76). That would give you the short, stiff front segment and the same rear length as the E-body. This is one of the potential alternatives I'm still considering, since I already have a set of brand-new Super Stock hangers in my basement, left over from the LeBaron project. I think for the moment I'm going to use the springs I have with the factory hangers, B-body shock setup, and the spring sliders replacing the shackles. If I'm not happy with the way it works, I'll investigate de-arched Super Stock springs or the A-body option.

Trickery:
- If you have oval spring bushings with the holes on either side of the hanger bolt, you can run bolts & nuts with washers through them to compress the bushing, increasing your functional bushing durometer. It tightens up the handling and decreases wear on otherwise-good bushings. Obviously, you'll want to make sure your setup clears the hangers. The bolts need to be a tight fit in the holes, and the tighter the better. If you really squeeze a large-diameter bolt in there, you can cut off the bolt heads and threaded end flush. My new springs have solid bushings so unfortunately this doesn't apply to me.
- Removing the spring clamp from the rear segment and reinstalling it ahead of the axle centerline allows the rear leaves to fan out on hard launches, letting the front segments and pinion snubber do their job more effectively. There is absolutely no downside to this modification from a ride or durability standpoint unless you drag race on salt-covered roads and get residue between the leaves.
- Fastener torque spec is critical in suspension work to increase effectiveness and component longevity. "Tight enough" is probably too tight. Find and use the torque spec for the fastener you're tightening. This applies to every fastener in the suspension, both front and rear. In the case of leaf spring shackles, they should never be torqued until the car is resting on the ground on its own weight. You might be surprised how much better a totally-stock, all-factory suspension works when it wasn't assembled by UAW guys with zip guns who consider torque specs a suggestion at most.
 

72Dodge

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Thank you very much for being so thorough. That's a lot of explanation and a lot of clarity. I've already read it twice and will have to read it a couple more times.

So... if I don't care about offset (it seems that neither front hanger set is an offset piece anyway), it seems like the best setup for my purposes is:
- the FirmFeel hangers
- E-body XHD springs
- my 8.75" rear end with some appropriate b-body shocks and shock plates

But then what shackles? Just get B-body shackles? And a B-body rear anti-swaybar setup (for same year as the rear I have)?

Alternatively, I may end up going with SS springs, but I have to be honest with myself, and if I'm ever throwing that much power (read: money) at the car, then it won't bother me if I have to replace the springs again anyway, so for general street/strip use for now, I think I should go FirmFeel/E-body XHD.

Am I missing anything?

Thanks again, as always.
 

NoCar340

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You can use B/E-body shackles with no issue. In fact, I haven't checked but I don't think you'll find much difference with the FMJ parts. Make sure you use the right, factory-style shackles, though--none of this universal dime-store junk without shouldered studs.

For the life of me, I can't recall what we did for the swaybar on my friend's Mirada. I'm going to have to call him about that, because it had a bar before and after and we did the whole shock-plate change. Something you'll want to keep in mind before you spend money on a rear bar is how it's going to handle with one. Depending on the front bar you're using, the stiffer rear bar may make the car tail-happy (oversteer). With Super Stock springs, it's essentially guaranteed. You may want to drive the car first and decide from there.

To my knowledge, no one makes offset Super Stock hangers. Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? You can have springs that hook, or tires that do it, but not both?! :eusa_doh:

One more trick I forgot to mention is flipping the front hangers. You'll have to oval the mounting holes a little bit, but it's not a big deal. This lowers the rear of the car about 1", but more importantly puts the spring closer to parallel with the ground. That improves virtually everything about the rear suspension: ride, hooking, and handling. As we all know, a jacked-up rear is detrimental to all that, as well as front-end component life. Trust me, unless you have your springs de-arched (or they're shot), it ain't going to look like a squirrel with a broken back.
 

72Dodge

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I think you're probably right about the B/E shackles as compared with the FMJ. I don't have any B/E ones to measure, but they "look" the same. At any rate, I now know what parts to order if I go with the B-body setup. The one thing that I don't really care much for on the FMJ is that the shackle bracket that bolts to the framerail just doesn't seem very sturdy. I guess it's probably sturdy enough, but it seems like a weak link to me. The shackle mounts on my Darts seem like a much better design. But anyway...

I'll probably go with that setup if there isn't an easy way to offset the springs inboard with off the shelf parts rather than potential fabrication, at least while using the XHD springs. Using offset SS springs probably is probably a bit overkill for me anytime soon.

When you say flipping the front hangers, I assume you mean with stock ones, because on the FF ones, I believe that's what the second eyehole is for, if I'm understanding right.

Yeah, I wouldn't put a rear swaybar on right away, I'm just thinking ahead in case I end up needing one for launch control, so I can file away the info for later. But, I admit, I'm thinking WAY ahead now. (BTW, I have the larger (forgetting the size offhand) front sway bar installed already).

Thanks again for all the help and tips. I think I'm ready now to setup my rear end (once the car is actually running)!
 
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72Dodge

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I just realized that I could swap springs even with the 8.25" setup, no reason to wait until I install the 8.75. Unfortunately, I already bought new rear FMJ shocks, but no big deal I guess.
 

NoCar340

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You can indeed, but you'll need pilot adapters and longer center bolts for the new springs. No big deal there. I have enough of those things to do about 6 cars.
 

72Dodge

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I need those even if I use the a/b body shock plates? I thought it was just if I was keeping the iso setup? If I change springs, I'm doing it all at once except the rear axle itself.
 

NoCar340

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You still have the large pilot holes on the original FMJ 8.25" axle, so you'd need at least a pair of the adapters and longer bolts to attach them. It's not a concern, dude... I have oodles of them and access to oodles more. :icon_biggrin:
 

72Dodge

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Ah, I think I get it now. Yeah, I would need those then. I'll PM you about it next week. Got to get some sleep now, then tomorrow it's off to the Mopar Happening down in IL for the weekend. Thanks again.
 

NoCar340

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I neglected to mention above that the FMJ Super Stock hangers are double-drilled. No flipping necessary since they already have the holes in the same position, or maybe a little higher (car sits lower to the ground) than the flipped stocker.

I still have a set of them in my basement, and they're still for sale. Ad's in the classifieds if memory serves.
 
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