Power steering issue

[AJ/FormS]

I highly doubt that you can trace your idling,stalling,and rough running; to retarded or changing cam timing.
I think you will find it in;
A) the low-speed circuit, or
B) a vacuum leak, or
C)the pollution control system, like the EGRand/or it's controls, or
D) other,like the timing controller, but not
E) the timing chain

Just my 2cents
Oh yeah, I put double rollers on everything,no exceptions.

 

[Deleted member 1959]

Hi AJ
Thanks for your 2 cents I am pretty desperate at this point..
a) What do you mean by the low-speed circuit ?
b) I have checked all vaccum lines and the one leading to the SCC from the carb was actually broken. Thought I had found the smoking gun, but replacing it made no difference.
c) I had the EGR dismantled. It was clean and seems to work. I took off the catalytic converter since it´s not a requirement here in Denmark on such an old car. By EGR controls, do you mean the vacuum amplifier ?
d) By timing controller, do you mean the SCC that controls the timing ?
As said earlier; everything in the ignition system has been changed. The coil was initially leaking oil - another smoking gun ?. Yes a new coil actually eliminated the cut-outs when warm, but it still idles and drives a bit rough and has the occasional cut-out - like the key is turned off.
I am suspecting the ignition needs to be checked, and then the carb. If these two are ok, and we can rule out the timing chain, I am inclined to blame the SCC system and all its sensors.

 

[AJ/FormS]

comments in the quote

Hi AJ
Thanks for your 2 cents I am pretty desperate at this point..
a) What do you mean by the low-speed circuit ? This is the idle and transition carb circuit. It includes everything from the tank(including the venting system),to the carb; plus the fuel, the actual fuel level, the main-wells,the emulsion tubes, the air-bleeds,the T-port sync., and the fuel-mixture screws.
b) I have checked all vaccum lines and the one leading to the SCC from the carb was actually broken. Thought I had found the smoking gun, but replacing it made no difference. This line is critical, as without it the SCC is dumb as a sack of hammers, and cannot properly regulate the timing.
c) I had the EGR dismantled. It was clean and seems to work. I took off the catalytic converter since it´s not a requirement here in Denmark on such an old car. By EGR controls, do you mean the vacuum amplifier ? No. The EGR must not work on a cold engine , nor at idle; if it did, the engine would stall,lol. There are controls for this.One is a CTS in the rad or intake. The other could be a venturi-vacuum signal on the side of the carb, which gets manipulated by the amplifier to a signal strong enough to actually move the diaphragm. Or it could have an electrical control(IDK) .
d) By timing controller, do you mean the SCC that controls the timing ?YES
As said earlier; everything in the ignition system has been changed. The coil was initially leaking oil - another smoking gun ?. Yes a new coil actually eliminated the cut-outs when warm, but it still idles and drives a bit rough and has the occasional cut-out - like the key is turned off.
I am suspecting the ignition needs to be checked, and then the carb. If these two are ok, and we can rule out the timing chain, I am inclined to blame the SCC system and all its sensors.

I would suspect the carb first,and the chain waaaaay last.
But since the chain is so easy to check, I would do that first.To check the chain, all you have to do is move the crank backwards and forwards against the pressure of the valve springs. Then estimate the number of degrees it is rocking. You have to be careful to stop as soon as you feel resistance from the valvetrain. 4* to 5* is the generally accepted maximum rock on a nylon toothed gear. You can do this in any crank position.
Also keep in mind that the engine can be sucking air from many sources; like the booster, the PCV,the charcoal canister,and the intake valley on a V8.
Also the timing controller in the SCC is nothing but a "vacuum advance can" and if it's diaphragm is ruptured you get zero advance.
And finally; the tank has to be vented. On your car I think this is done at the charcoal canister, so make sure that system is functioning. The canister collects vapors from the tank and from the carb bowl, and stores them there by sticking the hydrocarbon molecules to the "activated" charcoal in the container. Then when the time is right, the carb is allowed to pull them into the intake to become a part of the A/F charge. This must not be at idle, cuz the engine will stall.
Good hunting.......

 

[Deleted member 1959]

Thanks I will try the crank test, but I think you are right : the carb is probably the villain. I changed the fuel filter, and have bought a repair kit and a new float, but not overhauled it yet. I tried putting some carb cleaner into it while running, but it only seem to make the idling worse.. I will take it to a US car club meeting tomorrow evening. Maybe some of the guys there can help.

 

[BudW]

A worn timing chain can make the ignition timing jump all over the place – when checking it, at idle.

That said, changing ignition timing doesn’t do much - if the SCC keeps changing it back.

One quick way to check for worn timing chain, is to get a 1-1/4” socket and either a long ratchet or breaker bar. When car turned off, and distributor cap removed (note a second person to watch is very helpful) – turn the crankshaft bolt, either direction, a bit.
The person watching the distributor rotor – it should move immediately when the crankshaft bolt is rotated – in both directions.
If there is a lapse on movement, when crankshaft is turned – then you do have a worn timing chain/gears.
Changing crankshaft rotation direction – is when the play is noticed/detected.


Catalytic converters do get stopped up over time. The ones on my ’86 5th Ave are stopped up – correction, heavily restricted and is not far from being replaced.

Stopped up converters sorta work on the concept of having a potato stuffed into the tailpipe. Car would start, idle OK and maybe even drive off for short distance. Then car will die or will run horrible due to exhaust build up. I think you said the catalytic converter had been removed – if so, then that is not a worry.


Two easy ways I know to check EGR for problems:
One is hook up a hand held vacuum pump to the EGR valve. When at idle, pull a vacuum on the EGR valve at idle. After valve opens, engine will either die or start to run horrible. That tells me EGR valve does operate and passageways are not stopped up.

Second test is to disconnect the EGR valve and drive car for a bit and see if you still have the same drivability issues. If so, you need to keep looking (elsewhere).
If no other changes were made except for disconnecting EGR valve hose, then you need to perform pinpoint tests on that system to find the problem.


I suspect a good carburetor cleaning and adjustment is or is a majority of your troubles – but is not the only thing that can do it.
BudW

 

[Deleted member 1959]

Hi guys
I just had a mechanic look at the car at the local US car club. First he measured the timing and it was +14 BTDC, so he adjusted it to +9. That itself did not help the jittering, but after taking it for a drive he is now convinced that it is the orange ignition box that´s acting up. He has seen this before on 3 other occasions.
He wanted to order a new one from Summit but the trouble is they look different and the connector has 4 pins, and mine has 3. I cannot find the original box online.
Is it just a matter of ordering the new type box and the corresponding wiring harness ?

 

[BudW]

Both boxes are orange – but other than that, they are different.

The orange box in this photo is the EGR timer.

This orange box is the ICU (ignition Control Unit) – IF your vehicle did not have Lean Burn/SCC already installed.

In other words, the Orange ICU is electrical - but is not computerized.
The Lean Burn/SCC is a computer that takes the place of the ICU and continually adjusts the ignition timing for you.

Also, it does not do a person any good to adjust the distributor on Lean Burn/SCC system – for the computer will re-adjust it back to original setting.
The only big issue is extra distributor cap wear for it will be sparking off of the cap lug inside cap - from its "disturbed location" or rotation.
If this doesn't make any sense (which it might), then can take pictures to explain it better.

With an ICU – a person can adjust timing by moving the distributor, like normal.
Many a Lean Burn/SCC system has been removed ad replaced with the orange box ICU. IF that happened, then I can agree with your friends diagnosis. In this case, you vehicle does not have an ICU (yet).
BudW

 

[Deleted member 1959]

Hi Bud Thanks for the swift reply.
Crap - I thought he had found the smoking gun this time. But if the car jitters at constant speed and it feels like an ignition issue, what could it be then ?

 

[kkritsilas]

If you are sure it isn't a fuel/carburetor or vacium leak, it could be the coil (but I think you said you replaced that) or it could be Lean Burn/SCC/ESC computer.

 

[AJ/FormS]

If you have the stand-alone ignition box with the five-sided connector, and you suspect it is defective; then you can sub in any other box from any other Mopar including a slanty,for testing purposes.. I discovered that by accident. It seemed to me that at normal rpms(sub 4000) those things are incredibly dumb, all doing the same thing. Orange, Black, Blue, 72 to 77 they all worked on my 367cuber.

But I thought I read that you had the air-cleaner-mounted spark computer.......

 

[BudW]

Here is a picture from my ’77 Station Wagon (with ICU, but without Lean Burn/SCC).

The black box ICU is marked with red arrow. The black box EGR Timer is marked with white arrow(s).

Note: the Orange ICU is a Mopar Performance item.
All Chrysler ICU’s (in this time frame) came from factory, in black – but I do recall a few in light blue (if memory is correct) in later year pickups.

Note: the EGR Timers came in different colors – depending on its calibration (and part number). On calibrated parts, it was easier for parts installer to grab an “orange” part – than to dig around and look for a part number that ends with “188”, for example.
I have seen EGR Times, in white, red, yellow, orange and in black. There might even be other colors, as well.
In Oklahoma, most EGR timers got removed and tossed, once emissions regulations got removed.


The yellow arrow is a “double” ballast resistor.
Lean Burn/SCC did not use resistors.


The Orange box ICU’s made sense-mid ‘80’s (to present) and Blue box ICU’s use 4-wires (vs. 5-wires on black ICU’s (like mine) and the early 5-wire orange ICU’s (which are not easy to find)).

5-wire ICU’s use the “double” ballast resistor.
4-wire ICU’s use the “single” ballast resistor.
Note: the wiring pigtail is the same – just don’t need to use the un-used wire.
BudW

 

[BudW]

I believe you said you have an ICU, vacuum advance distributor and wiring (ie: electronic ignition system changeover)?

If so, you might consider performing a temporary ignition system change (ie: don’t cutting wiring harness or unbolt anything, yet, just remove old distributor, and install the vacuum advance version in its place. Mount the ICU somewhere it can get a good ground to it – and try it (using existing ignition coil). You should be able to drive it temporarily for testing purposes.

If Lean Burn/SCC is working properly – then you will not notice much if any difference.

If a fault in Lean Burn/SCC system – then you will know what “area” problem lies and a permeant changeover might be a good plan.

Now with that said – the problem might not be ignition related. It might be fuel, vacuum leaks, internal engine, etc.

If you don’t have an electronic system changeover – then that rules that out.


This is what a typical Chrysler Electronic Ignition Changeover kit looks like (this one is for a 383/400 – so distributor appears a bit different – but otherwise is the same. There are several people making these kits. This is just the first one I found a picture of.

BudW

Edit: you will need to have a timing light to get the new ignition timing correct. The Lean Burn/SCC distributor doesn’t need to be timed per se. One just needs to make sure the cap lug is over the rotor (clock position).

Taking a picture of old distributor removal with some reference point (before removal) might be helpful.

 

[Deleted member 1959]

Hi all
Thanks again for all the info and advice.

I checked the timing chain by moving the crank a bit back and forth and the rotor moved immediately when the crank moved. So I guess the chain is ok.

Since the ICU is part of the SCC on my car (Thanks Bud), I can´t easily change it to check it. So I decided to pull the carb off and have that checked and rebuilt by the same mechanic. If this does not do the trick then I will have to throw in the towel and get rid of the whole lean burn system. This means new carb, ignition and possibly a new intake manifold. Anything to make it driveable and more reliable And it will look a whole lot "leaner" in the engine bay afterwards.

 

[BudW]

The carburetor will still work on your car, just fine for your year application (if you use Lean Burn/SCC, or not).
The later year versions – then yes, you will need another carburetor. That should make the expense of change over a bit less.
The intake manifold is also the same (if Lean Burn/SCC, or not).

If a person was going to get rid of the computer, you will need a kit, like the one posted in post # 32. The color of the box (ICU) is not that important on a 318 2-bbl.

Most of the wiring and such can be left in place – if wanted, as well as the air cleaner mounted computer.

If you do remove the computer – you will either need to fill the hole in air cleaner (where computer once was) – or find a non-Lean Burn/SCC air cleaner (which are out there - but might not be cheap to ship there).


In the case of my ’86 5th Ave, I will be removing Lean Burn/ESC shortly – but will be leaving the shell of the computer on the air cleaner. What I will do is mount the ICU on underside of it (will require a lot of fabrication, cutting, and so forth). The ICU is grounded via the two mounting bolts, so I will have to run a good ground wire to it, in this case.
My plans for my 5th Ave is different than your plans are for your car is – so what I’m doing shouldn’t apply to you. This will be after I install a big block into car and my plans are to make it appear to be a stock 318 2-bbl with Lean Burn/ESC – at first and second glance – when actually it will be a far cry from that.
BudW

 

[Deleted member 1959]

I have had the carb cleaned and rebuilt but not tried it out on the car yet (work takes up too much of ones´ spare time).
I do not have much faith in this solving the problem though, so I am already thinking ahead.

I would like to get a new carb and a new intake manifold to completely get rid of the EGR, vaccum booster, EGR timing relay, charcoal canister etc.

My mechanic wants me to get a 625 CFM 4 bbl Demon carb and a matching intake. I, however, don´t care about extra power, and since the Demon is square, my original air cleaner box will not fit. This is the only thing I would really like to keep so that, at first glance, the engine looks original.

Is there a carb out there that will fit the original round air cleaner box and at the same time fit a new shiny intake without the lean-burn stuff ?

 

[BudW]

There are a couple different styles of Demon carburetors. The Holley appearing one and the Thermoquad appearing one.

The Thermoquad appearing one (which I think is the one you are talking about) is overall square in nature, but does accept a standard round-hole 4-bbl air cleaner.

I think I should back up a bit. Chrysler used four different “hole size” air cleaners between ’77-89.
The ’76's did not have outside air duct so I didn’t consider them.

The carburetor hole size are:
1-bbl carburetors
2-bbl carburetors used on /6 and 318’s
2-bbl carburetors used on 360’s (and 400’s – but 400’s were not installed in FMJ’s). These are about ½” wider hole than 318’s use, and not very many were produced
4-bbl carburetors (this also includes police)

Of these four carburetor hose-sizes – you will also have Lean Burn mounted (or not) – versions.

Overall, the outside diameter is different between 2-bbl and 4-bbl – mainly because a 4-bbl needs a bigger air filter for the larger amount of air it uses. Now with that said, many of the ’80’s 4-bbls have the smaller outer diameter.

If a person is to find a ’77, and up, 4-bbl air cleaner (318, 360, 400 or 440) - it will work if you decide to change to a 4-bbl (Holley, Demon, TQ or other). Lean Burn/SCC or not.
If not a Lean Burn cleaner, you can always cut new holes on side of cleaner for the computer – that is if you keep the computer.
If you get one with Lean Burn/SCC, you can insert a steel plate or get holes welded up - if computer version is not wanted.

The cold air hose fitting is the hard aspect to locate.


THEN – either 4-bbl carburetor to transmission linkage (or aftermarket cable system) will be needed – OR you will experience premature transmission failure.

- - -
If a person is just wanting to get rid of EGR – then I have an easier answer.
Remove the existing EGR valve from car. Trace an outline of it onto steel stock (plate). Cut out your outline and bolt it in-place of existing EGR valve. Done.
Also, just leaving the EGR valve in place - but unplugged, works

The other items (Vacuum amplifier (if equipped), many hoses, EGR timer (if equipped) and so forth, can then be removed from car.

That plate (EGR delete) as well as the tear-drop plates on backside of exhaust manifolds were available from Chrysler, until 20 or so years ago.

If just wanting to delete EGR – the block-off plate is much simpler, faster, cheaper and easier than trying to change the intake over.


I had a handful of EGR delete/block-off plates on small blocks and big blocks – still attached to the intakes – but for some reason – they got lost in a move, many years back. The heavy iron intakes weren’t too much of a loss – but those EGR plates were. I “think” I have on of each still (maybe) which I can take some measurements – if others wanted a template for those plates (or exhaust manifold tear-drops) – but way way too hot to go digging around in my garage, at this time.
BudW

The previous owner (or repair shop) zip-tied the hose to the EGR valve, before I purchased the car.
For some odd reason, the EGR has given me Zero problems (mainly because it has been disconnected) in the two years I've had this car.

My ’86 5th Ave, the previous owner (or repair shop) added a BB (ball bearing) into the vacuum hose not far from EGR valve – back when we had state Emissions visual inspection. The EGR valve had to be installed – but not necessarily working.

 

[Deleted member 1959]

I put back the carb on the a few days ago, and it wouldn´t start at all. Had the mechanic take it apart again and this time it worked. Started up fine and seems to run a bit better but the jittering when driving at constant speed is still there.
So I am waiting for him to come back with an offer on replacing the carb, intake, ignition and possibly the air cleaner. In the mean time I will try to experiment with blocking off the EGR and removing the charcoal canister as a prelude to replacing the lean-burn system.
Since it never gets scorching hot here in Denmark, I am thinking about removing the A/C system also to save weight and make the engine bay leaner and cleaner. It does not work at present anyway. Any advice on how to remove it ? I can see I will need shorter belts for the alternator but what else ?

 

[old yellow 78]

I have not read this entire thread, so my comment may be irrelevant - but, my slant six wagon had an annoying "jitter" when driving at constant speed. Sort of a jerking, faltering random hesitation, mostly when cruising, but then it would stop when giving it more gas. I had the carb rebuilt etc, still no change. My old mechanic neighbor took a look at it and replaced the ballast resistor (the yellow arrow in Bud W's pic below). That solved the problem! Apparently it was faulty, but still allowed the car to run...poorly. Hope this might help.

 

[Deleted member 1959]

Hi Old Yellow
Thanks for your input.
The ballast resistor is one of the things I replaced at an early stage since it costs next to nothing. Mine is the type with only two connectors. I measured the old one to be within specs, but replaced it anyway. But sadly it has not solved the problem.

 

[old yellow 78]

Nuts. It was just a thought, because I was surprised that that was the problem with OY. I had always thought that the ballast resistors either worked, or didn't work at all, not that they would "sorta work". Usually, they would stop working in the most inconvenient places too. Good luck in finding out what the trouble is.