Prepare To Puke

drynoc

New Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Location
Woodbridge, VA
Styling is a matter of taste, and while I did not like the original LX (05-10) cars, they are getting much better looking in my opinion. And obviously they are infinitely better cars than the '60s and '70s in every way. I would take a new Charger or Challenger or a 200 in a heartbeat, but the problem is that I would have to pay for them, which I why I own three LH model cars.
 

ramenth

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
906
Reaction score
96
Location
Beaver Dams, NY
And that's what I love about threads like this. There's such a passion for the past. But a lot of people put on blinders when it comes to the past.

It's like the A-body guys getting their panties in a wad about the new Dart. "It's not a true Dart!" they scream and whine. Well, what's a "true" Dart? If you know your history, you'll know that the A-body ain't. And which A-body are we talking about? Pre-'67 or post '67? Which one is the "true" A-body considering the platform under went a complete redesign. Oh, they both are... why? Because Chrysler said so? Chrysler has also put the name Dart on the new car, so wouldn't that make it a "true" Dart? Why bow to Ma Mopar 'cause they so on one and not the other?

Back on to history: the Dart name has been used on various platforms, including the M-body and a front drive K-car. Interesting, though, how people only want to remember the A-body and call it the "real" Dart.

Speaking of history. Anyone remember the '49 Ford? Know what made the '49 Ford so revolutionary? It eliminated the big, round, separated fenders of the '40's and brought in fenders and quarter panels molded with the body. That started a trend that caught the other manufacturers flat footed as they rushed to keep up. Then, GM and Chrysler had their own "molded" look.

Then the fin wars started. The trick of it is, when you talk about the "distinctness" of the '50's, they really aren't that distinct. Starting in the mid-'50's you had a choice: fins, big fins, and outrageous fins. And lots and lots of chrome. It didn't matter of it was a Ford, Chrysler, or GM product you still got fins. And lots and lots of chrome.

Anyone here own anything like a Duster, Demon, or Dart Sport? How many times have you had someone ask you what year your Nova is? I've had guys ask me what year my Camaro is. ('74 Barracuda.) The AMC guys get it all the time: what year is your Road Runner when talking about a Matador. What year is your Chevy II or Falcon when talking about a Rambler. Notice a trend there? The general public can't tell those cars apart, either. The styling was the same.

Now, on to the Charger. What makes a Charger? The fast back design of '66, '67? The coke bottle shape of '68-'70? The aero design of '71-'74? The luxo-barge design of '75-77? The front driver of the '80's? The Aussie A-body? A four door that's been in production for as long as the first three generations of the Charger nameplate...combined? Seems to me there's been a lot of cars that have worn the Charger name over the decades. While many shared a platform the styling on each each was distinct and didn't resemble what came before. But many of us, in putting our blinders on, ignore these facts. When it comes to Charger the focal point seems to be the '68-'70 cars and all else is forgotten.

How many here own a J-body Cordoba only to hear it's not a "real" Cordoba from those who have the blinders on only for the B-body Cordobas? How many here own a Y-body Imperial only to hear it's not a "real" Imperial compared to the C- and D-bodies? Funny, isn't it, that many of those owners now do the same to the Charger and the Dart when they have it thrown on them all the time.

As far as Fiat goes, I like it. For a lot of reasons, but mainly because I'm an old car enthusiast. Anyone here restored a Packard? Or a Studebaker? Within a decade of the death of the nameplate parts starting drying up. Try finding even good used parts. It's like pulling teeth, so the idea of finding the quality and quantity of sheetmetal, for say, an E-body or a GM F-body or a Mustang is never gonna happen. Now, imagine what would happen to our Chrysler products aftermarket support if the nameplate died. The E- and B-body would still be supported. Those are high dollar cars and the owners would still be spending money on 'em. But holding out hope for the same kind of support for the "lesser" cars? Forget about it.

As far as the government bailout keeping the nameplate going, no it wouldn't. The governments wouldn't be able to give it the infusion of cash needed to continue with upgrades, new research, tooling. As such, all the old designs would be continuing and people would stop buying simply because they old designs would never be brought up to "new" status.
 

My imp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
1,102
Reaction score
32
Location
Brunswick, Ohio
Well let me be the first to say this about that; we talk about old cars, because this site is about old cars. I, probably more than most here get off on a tangent about this or that, not necessarily about F M or J bodies. If Janet's biopsy comes back okay, she'll be driving a Dart II before all too long. There aren't many colors to choose from, & I liked being able to pick which options I wanted, not what "package" of options they want me to have. We can all bitch about this or that, but the bottom line is that as long as the gov.'t is there to bail them out, it will be business as usual. As far as quality issues, thank God they don't build them the way they used to! My Dad was a total neat freak who washed his car whether it neede it or not. But door skins were flapping before they had any right to be. Tops of fenders, bottoms of doors, 1/4's, frames etc.. Sent more than a few cars to the junkyard with excellent drivetrains. Cars go 3-4000,000 miles between rebuilds if properly maintained. In American society, if it ain't new, it ain't sh*t! Everything is disposable or throwaway. From marriage, all the way down. Watch the European car shows. They talk about handing down their cars. Over here, if you don't get a new car every couple of years, people think you must not be doing very good financially. Personally, if I get something good, I tend to stick with it. Most of my guitars are 30 yrs old, or older. Once again Big Brother stuck his nose where it doesn't belong. Most guitars used to be painted with nitro-cellulose lacquer. It kills the enviorment, but is reasonably safe for painters. Now, BB has outlawed nitro-cellulose in favor of polyester urethane BC/CC. Without getting too deeply into instrument refinishing, nitro allows the wood to "sing", whereas urethane tends to deaden the tone of the wood. The crap they've re-released as lacquer isn't much better than BC/CC in so far as allowing the wood to breathe & sing. The natural yellowing & patina of lacquer more than out ways the benefits of BC/CC have when used on cars. We obviously like our F M J cars. That's why we come to this site. Everything else is opinion, & we all know what people say about opinions... Never before in history have we been able to buy vehicles that do so many things well. Considerably better than the cars of yesterday. Compare apples to apples. Take the "stripper" of today, & compare it to the one from yesteryear. The wrapper might not appeal to you as much, but in almost EVERY other way, the new vehicle will out do the older one. Better brakes, handling, economy, power, comfort, you name it. Now while a '74 225/904 Dart with genuine/imitation plastic carpet, roll up windows, plastic fantastic interior may appeal to some, I'll take the new DartII. Now while I seriously doubt if we'll be lauding the praises of it 30 some years later, no one is building cars to last 30 some years anymore. The manufacturers worked for years to get us right where that wanted us all along: "If it ain't new, it ain't sh*t!"
 

kkritsilas

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
1,965
Reaction score
420
Location
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Sorry to split this off to a non-car related direction.

In 2004, I went to the Healdsburg guitar builder's festival in Santa Rosa, California. Probably the majority of hand builders were there, or at least a very large percentage. A lot of the guitars were in the >$5000 category. Some of the builders were Canadian (Linda Manzer, Judy Threet, Michael Dunn, Michael Greenfield, etc.). The builders that came down from Canada were easy to find: just look for the shiniest guitars. The finishes on the Poly-(esther/urethane) and Water Based Lacquers were dull in comparison, and the differences were visible miles away. There are no prohibitions on nitro-cellulose lacquers in Canada, and most handbuilders up here use it.I would not go as far as to say that the guitars built in Canada were better sounding due to the use of the nitro finish, but they will tend to get better sounding as time goes on to a greater extent than the guitar that were not finished with nitro.

Kostas
 

Cordoba1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2011
Messages
457
Reaction score
126
Location
Northern Illinois
As far as quality issues, thank God they don't build them the way they used to!
Hear hear! This has been my montra for a long, long time. I also say, "people don't remember them like they really were." I've gotten stuck in this trap where I have fond memories of an older car.... And then I get one and try and live with it, and all the reasons that I got rid of an earlier one comes flooding back. Over the years, I've typically had two cars, a newer daily driver -- and a "baby" that has been vintage iron of one brand or another.
 

Jack Meoff

Mopar Maniac
Joined
Jan 29, 2012
Messages
10,747
Reaction score
1,200
Location
Hogtown, Ontario
I must be one of those weird guys.....
My Fifth has been my daily for four years with no complaints

Before that I had a Craprice which lived up to it's name.......

Before that my Caravelle was my daily for three....
Again....no complaints.
 
Last edited:

Mopar&vettedude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
447
Reaction score
59
Location
Tonwanda, ny
I have to agree with all of you. The cars now a days are so cookie cutter its not funny. Nothing really has style anymore. Thats why i have a 81 elky as my daily ride. lol But there are a few select cars out there that were made in the early to late 2000s that were really nice. The marauders and crown vic lx sports are badass. I wouldn't mind having one my self, I love the magnums, and I love the pontiac g8 those are awesome cars. I cant make my mind up on either the magnum or the g8 as my next car. As for chevy's new ss that really doesnt do anything for me, Its kinda goofy looking and just doesnt stand up to the aggressiveness of the g8. The Taurus is nice i like those. But when you really look at it, Chrysler is really the only one that makes rear wheel drive cars. Outside of the other companies everyone else has front wheel drive.
 

CMX360

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Messages
177
Reaction score
5
Location
MA
Not an Impala or a Taurus, but a 2014 Caprice. Maybe the US car makers will get a clue and figure out that front wheel drive is not the only way to design a car.

At one time, Ford had V10s in pickup trucks (still do in the >1 Ton trucks, as an option to diesels). Not that I am a fan of either, but the Mustang (yes, even the 2015 version) and Camaro are pretty good at picking up some of the styling cues of the late 1960s/early 1970s, within the limitations of current legislation and market demands. We wouldn't be talking about Chrysler any more due to Fiat? More like due to government bail outs in the billions (and not only Chrysler, but GM, too). And it was both the US and the Canadian government as well. Fiat is a European company, as Daimler was. When things get tight, really tight, do not bet on Fiat doing what is in Chrysler's best interest. And for the record, Daimler isn't exactly a little shit car company, either.

Nothing wrong with RAM division. Real issues with market acceptance of Dart, and even Viper (from SRT group). Both have had product lines shut down this year for lack of sales (what is often refereed to as "excess inventory"). Dart is a good design, I actually like the way it looks, but they have to get serious with the paint colours. Light/Baby Blue? Really, what's next, a Sundance version? In a market that seems to be dominated by darker, more aggressive colours? A potentially hot pocket rocket without a coupe/2 Door/hatchback version? Without a high perf version? Look at what Ford has done with the Focus and Fiesta. Both have hotted up versions, both have modern colours, (and only from what I am seeing out on the streets) they seem to be doing well.

The problem with current car design, is that all of the designer for US car companies are coming out of the same limited number of "art colleges" or "design colleges". As such they have the same design principles drilled into them. They are not actually ground up designers in the mold of the designers of old, which all did their own thing, and the next generation of designers learned from them. Now, they go to art school, all go to the the same art classes, and upon graduation, are hired as designers. Look at what has happened at Jaguar. Their middle and top line sedans look identical, and they could be clones of the mid 2000s Ford Taurus if seen from the front. As little as 5 years ago, an XJ sedan had NO resemblance to the S-Type, but both were clearly Jaguars. Now, not only can you not tell them apart from each other, you really can't even tell they are Jaguars from a distance.

Seems like cars are being designed to not offend, as opposed to looking good.

Things seem to just go in trends. The gaping Audi fish mouth is one that is going on now. So is the trend to take the headlight lenses halfway up the fender (for some reason that eludes me, but I suppose it does help to massively increase the price of a headlight lens if it is cracked). The truck trend is to make the front's look "massive", this one probably started by Ram trucks, but carried on by the other two US makers, along with Toyota. Car makers must think it makes their trucks look "tough". Why the wasted effort on design, vs. the same effort in making trucks actually tough is really a triumph of the marketing dept. over the engineering dept. And that is nothing new.

Kostas

The Holden based Chevy Caprice is Police only. The upcoming Chevy SS will be a Charger "competitor". It's a rebadged Pontiac G8. The G8 was pretty cool (poor Pontiac. Was my favorite GM brand) but it didn't come close to Charger sales and I don't see the SS doing much better. Lack of Viper sales doesn't say much. Viper is a pure muscle monster unlike the Corvette which comes in Corvette Light as well as high performance models. Plus the economy is still crappy and the Viper is more expensive than ever. If they make a cheaper 6.4 or 6.2 Hellcat Hemi Viper then sales would pick up. In regards to the V10s I meant the Viper V10 specifically. It's one thing to put a big iron V10 in a truck as a lower cost alternative to a diesel but it's something else entirely to put a 500HP aluminum V10 meant for a sports car into a full size truck. Just saying that you would be hard pressed to find another car company that would do the same. The ultra rare Lamborghini LM SUV was Chryslers crazy idea as well. Just making the point that the crazy Chrysler that we love so much from the past is still alive. As for Dart... yeah that was a terrible launch, but Dodge has been quickly correcting its flaws and sales are strong enough to justify its existence. When you crunch the numbers its the best small car on the market today. The public just doesn't know it yet. Also oddly enough the car comes as both a sedan and a hatchback overseas. So if Dodge wanted to compete with Fords hot hatches they could. Just need a damn SRT model already.
 

Jack Meoff

Mopar Maniac
Joined
Jan 29, 2012
Messages
10,747
Reaction score
1,200
Location
Hogtown, Ontario
I have to agree with all of you. The cars now a days are so cookie cutter its not funny. Nothing really has style anymore. Thats why i have a 81 elky as my daily ride. lol But there are a few select cars out there that were made in the early to late 2000s that were really nice. The marauders and crown vic lx sports are badass. I wouldn't mind having one my self, I love the magnums, and I love the pontiac g8 those are awesome cars. I cant make my mind up on either the magnum or the g8 as my next car. As for chevy's new ss that really doesnt do anything for me, Its kinda goofy looking and just doesnt stand up to the aggressiveness of the g8. The Taurus is nice i like those. But when you really look at it, Chrysler is really the only one that makes rear wheel drive cars. Outside of the other companies everyone else has front wheel drive.

Your Camino is your daily?
Very cool.....
 

Jack Meoff

Mopar Maniac
Joined
Jan 29, 2012
Messages
10,747
Reaction score
1,200
Location
Hogtown, Ontario
The Holden based Chevy Caprice is Police only. The upcoming Chevy SS will be a Charger "competitor". It's a rebadged Pontiac G8. The G8 was pretty cool (poor Pontiac. Was my favorite GM brand) but it didn't come close to Charger sales and I don't see the SS doing much better. Lack of Viper sales doesn't say much. Viper is a pure muscle monster unlike the Corvette which comes in Corvette Light as well as high performance models. Plus the economy is still crappy and the Viper is more expensive than ever. If they make a cheaper 6.4 or 6.2 Hellcat Hemi Viper then sales would pick up. In regards to the V10s I meant the Viper V10 specifically. It's one thing to put a big iron V10 in a truck as a lower cost alternative to a diesel but it's something else entirely to put a 500HP aluminum V10 meant for a sports car into a full size truck. Just saying that you would be hard pressed to find another car company that would do the same. The ultra rare Lamborghini LM SUV was Chryslers crazy idea as well. Just making the point that the crazy Chrysler that we love so much from the past is still alive. As for Dart... yeah that was a terrible launch, but Dodge has been quickly correcting its flaws and sales are strong enough to justify its existence. When you crunch the numbers its the best small car on the market today. The public just doesn't know it yet. Also oddly enough the car comes as both a sedan and a hatchback overseas. So if Dodge wanted to compete with Fords hot hatches they could. Just need a damn SRT model already.

An SRT Dart would be something to talk about....
 

brotherGood

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Messages
884
Reaction score
158
Location
Urbana OH
An SRT Dart would be something to talk about....

Yes, I agree. In following Mr. Gilles on Twitter, I've seen that question posted often to him. Havent paid much attention to the responses, but I will say this..

Supposedly, one of the reasons the Dart entered Global RallyCross, was to develop AWD in the Dart, to possibly lead it into the SRT. The reason there isn't one yet; there isn't anything up to the SRT standards ready to go into the Dart yet. But, the R/T is a very strong alternative.

If they finally did release the SRT Dart..I'd sell my truck, and get one of those. I'll borrow Dads truck to haul the Dip back and forth.
 

Mopar&vettedude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
447
Reaction score
59
Location
Tonwanda, ny
Thanks cap. I get flak about it all the time, but i just tell them my 83 doba is my pride and joy. Then continue to look at me and question why dont drive that in the winter instead of the elky. its simple i'm a mopar guy and you obviously are not. And to follow up on the srt dart, I'm thinking the same with the awd. I read somewhere that they plan on having it compete against the evo and the wrx/sti. Its definitely going to be a serious powerhouse for horsepower and torque. I think it was somthing like 350hp and somewhere in the same vicinity of torque.
 

brotherGood

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Messages
884
Reaction score
158
Location
Urbana OH
Ask, and you shall receive.

Srt dart has been confirmed...

..now taking donations
 

FMJ Bob

Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2012
Messages
21
Reaction score
2
Location
North Carolina
Well I had to do a double take. At first I thought it was ugly. However I have looked at it a few times now & well.....I don't know. Maybe it will look good in the steel. However I have an idea you guys can kick around. Since 2 doors are not in favor these days. Would it be feasible for Mama Mia Mopar to have 8 year runs of the 2 door Challenger followed by a 8 year run of a 2 door Charger. Then back to the Challenger or maybe even a Cuda & so on. Use them as niche cars. Have the same chassis & drive trains. But different sheet metal & interiors. Would satisfy the purist with the styling. Not a bunch of compromised v6 sedans bearing the legendary name. They could also spin off a true 4 door V6 with current trend styling to service the fleet & 4 door sedan markets. So 3 entirely different cars from 1 base. Kinda like the way they spun off all those K car variants & Mini van variants way back when.
 

ramenth

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
906
Reaction score
96
Location
Beaver Dams, NY
Well I had to do a double take. At first I thought it was ugly. However I have looked at it a few times now & well.....I don't know. Maybe it will look good in the steel. However I have an idea you guys can kick around. Since 2 doors are not in favor these days. Would it be feasible for Mama Mia Mopar to have 8 year runs of the 2 door Challenger followed by a 8 year run of a 2 door Charger. Then back to the Challenger or maybe even a Cuda & so on. Use them as niche cars. Have the same chassis & drive trains. But different sheet metal & interiors. Would satisfy the purist with the styling. Not a bunch of compromised v6 sedans bearing the legendary name. They could also spin off a true 4 door V6 with current trend styling to service the fleet & 4 door sedan markets. So 3 entirely different cars from 1 base. Kinda like the way they spun off all those K car variants & Mini van variants way back when.

Niche markets don't move sheetmetal. For every Viper built and sold Chrysler is hoping to move 5000 Darts, Chargers, Challengers. Every day sheetmetal makes money, the niche market just brings attention to the showrooms.
 

Mopar&vettedude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
447
Reaction score
59
Location
Tonwanda, ny
Well From what i read for dodges 5 year plan, since srt in being integrated back in and dodge becoming the performance company, I could really see them actually making a 2 door charger again. They already plan on redesigning the challenger and charger in 2017 or 18. But one cand only hope.
 

NoCar340

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2013
Messages
1,240
Reaction score
178
Location
Upper MI
I saw mention that they might re-introduce the 'Cuda, but then apparently they killed it since it doesn't appear in the 5-year plan whatsoever. That car is now being called Avenger, which is perfect. There was never a Dodge Barracuda or 'Cuda, nor should there ever be. It's just wrong. Dodge has the Challenger, and that's enough.
 
Back
Top