SixBanger
Well-Known Member
Hello,
What kind of oil is suggested for 225 slant engines running mostly on LPG? 10W40?
Thanks
What kind of oil is suggested for 225 slant engines running mostly on LPG? 10W40?
Thanks
Slant six info running LPG
- Thread starter SixBanger
- Start date
I know engines using an alcohol based fuel – it is best to use a compatible non-petroleum engine oil like castor oil (alcohol and oil mixes as well as water and oil - it doesn’t).
That said, I’m not sure on CNG or LPG – but I would assume it uses normal engine oil.
BudW
That said, I’m not sure on CNG or LPG – but I would assume it uses normal engine oil.
BudW
SixBanger
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info! Putting some 10w40 in it.
I would like to know more about your LPG conversion.
Lots of pictures would also be greatly appreciated – including fuel storage area (if possible).
BudW
Lots of pictures would also be greatly appreciated – including fuel storage area (if possible).
BudW
SixBanger
Well-Known Member
Hey Bud, I should soon upload some pics of the LPG conversion and fuel storage. May I ask, do you have plans to run your mopar on LPG?
SixBanger
Well-Known Member
Does you know some more attention points for the slant/volare? I doesn't own the car so long. But have repair some stuff. Used as a daily driver.
I’m not an expert on CNG (Compressed Natural Gas), LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas) or Propane. I’ve worked on the cars (non-fuel related repairs) so know how it works, but no hands-on work on them (yet).
What I do know (or think I know) is:
- It takes a bit more fuel to run a vehicle using CNG or LPG, than gasoline (slightly lower MPG).
- CNG and LPG creates very little carbon or carbon deposits (over gasoline) – so internal engine remains very clean (combustion chambers and in oiling system).
- CNG and LPG works great with electronic fuel injection – and in some cases, the engine computer can switch between the two different fuel systems at ease. That is not the case on carbureted vehicles which will use only one fuel type.
- The price for conversion is sometimes cost prohibitive.
- It is far cheaper to purchase a new vehicle that has already been converted to the fuel of your choice than to have it converted after purchase.
As of now (in Oklahoma City, US – August 2018) price for LPG is about 2.05$ a gallon. CNG is about 1.52$ a gallon and 87 octane (100% gasoline) is about 2.85$ a gallon.
Oklahoma is in an oil producing area and produces a lot of CNG – so the fuel cost is something I’ve been looking at.
About 4 years ago, CNG was at 0.50-0.55$ per gallon, for a pretty long time.
$0.50 compared to $3.00 will get your attention.
As far as me converting a vehicle?
My wagon is ruled out – I’m not putting a fuel tank inside of the car – kinda defeats the purpose of having a wagon.
My diesel pickup can run on CNG – but again, having fuel tanks in the truck bed defeats the purpose of having a pickup (Note: I consider a full-size truck to be a pickup with an 8-foot bed. Those full-size pickups with 4 or 6-foot beds to more of a toy than a pickup, IMO).
Many newer Chrysler minivans came from factory with CNG or LPG – so finding parts for it might not be too difficult . . . I think. I hadn’t run across one yet, though.
The only vehicle I have for a possible conversion is my ’86 Fifth Ave. Just not sure how that might work with my big block conversion (but not off the table).
Coming back to my pickup. I bought my ’94 Dodge diesel pickup shortly after 9/11 occurred. After I totaled out my ’94, I got a ’97 diesel pickup as a replacement. Both has the 5.9L Cummins 12-valve diesel. Both of which will burn darn near any liquid, other than water or gasoline - which is something most diesel pickups can't do.
I was thinking fuel might be hard to come by with all the oil fields on fire in Iraq and Kuwait and other possibility’s going on at the time. Also, diesel was a lot cheaper than gasoline at the time.
Now the diesels in use today need the ultra-low sulfur diesel – which technically is not compatible with my truck without additives. The extra refining of diesel made the cost of it not so attractive now days.
BudW
What I do know (or think I know) is:
- It takes a bit more fuel to run a vehicle using CNG or LPG, than gasoline (slightly lower MPG).
- CNG and LPG creates very little carbon or carbon deposits (over gasoline) – so internal engine remains very clean (combustion chambers and in oiling system).
- CNG and LPG works great with electronic fuel injection – and in some cases, the engine computer can switch between the two different fuel systems at ease. That is not the case on carbureted vehicles which will use only one fuel type.
- The price for conversion is sometimes cost prohibitive.
- It is far cheaper to purchase a new vehicle that has already been converted to the fuel of your choice than to have it converted after purchase.
As of now (in Oklahoma City, US – August 2018) price for LPG is about 2.05$ a gallon. CNG is about 1.52$ a gallon and 87 octane (100% gasoline) is about 2.85$ a gallon.
Oklahoma is in an oil producing area and produces a lot of CNG – so the fuel cost is something I’ve been looking at.
About 4 years ago, CNG was at 0.50-0.55$ per gallon, for a pretty long time.
$0.50 compared to $3.00 will get your attention.
As far as me converting a vehicle?
My wagon is ruled out – I’m not putting a fuel tank inside of the car – kinda defeats the purpose of having a wagon.
My diesel pickup can run on CNG – but again, having fuel tanks in the truck bed defeats the purpose of having a pickup (Note: I consider a full-size truck to be a pickup with an 8-foot bed. Those full-size pickups with 4 or 6-foot beds to more of a toy than a pickup, IMO).
Many newer Chrysler minivans came from factory with CNG or LPG – so finding parts for it might not be too difficult . . . I think. I hadn’t run across one yet, though.
The only vehicle I have for a possible conversion is my ’86 Fifth Ave. Just not sure how that might work with my big block conversion (but not off the table).
Coming back to my pickup. I bought my ’94 Dodge diesel pickup shortly after 9/11 occurred. After I totaled out my ’94, I got a ’97 diesel pickup as a replacement. Both has the 5.9L Cummins 12-valve diesel. Both of which will burn darn near any liquid, other than water or gasoline - which is something most diesel pickups can't do.
I was thinking fuel might be hard to come by with all the oil fields on fire in Iraq and Kuwait and other possibility’s going on at the time. Also, diesel was a lot cheaper than gasoline at the time.
Now the diesels in use today need the ultra-low sulfur diesel – which technically is not compatible with my truck without additives. The extra refining of diesel made the cost of it not so attractive now days.
BudW
The 225 has been manufactured from 1959 to 1987 (North America) and to 2000 (Mexico) – so lots of engines are out there.
They are mostly a trouble-free engine.
Normal maintaince items are:
Change the engine oil and filter every 7.5k miles (12K KM)
The engines made before 1980 needs to have the valves adjusted every 15K miles (24K KM). Those made after that have hydraulic lifters. Also check differential lube level every 15K miles.
Change spark plugs, fuel filter and air filter every 30K miles (48K KM). Also, clean and repack front wheel bearings every 30k miles (which is normally about the same time a front brake job is needed).
Change coolant every 2 years.
Also check all coolant hoses for cracks or being “hard” or “spongy” at same time. If any cracks or hoses are hard to squeeze, has bubbles or spongy at a spot – is a hose ready to blow on you. Not sure if a hose should feel? Go purchase a hose (heater or radiator) and do a comparison – or squeeze a hose on a newer car. Hoses will feel about the same on car vs. new.
Do the above and a person will have very little problems on car.
Some spare parts to have on hand (or in trunk):
Spare ballast resistor (if equipped). It may have a 2 pin, a 4-pin or not one at all (if computer controlled).
Spare distributer pickup coil
Spare plastic distributor gear (not common – but does happen)
Spare voltage regulator
Spare fan belt(s).
A small tool set including a cheap volt meter (make sure battery is left out of your meter, until needed).
Get a service manual (either book form or a PDF file).
BudW
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
Nice, and cheaper than I though.
I think it is interesting that title line says “COMPLETE . . . CONVERSION KIT . . .” and description also says “INCLUDES: EVERYTHING FOR A COMPLETE PROPANE CONVERSION INCLUDING MIXER, THROTTLE BODY, REGULATOR, LOCK OFF, FITTINGS, HOSES ETC.” but later is also says “TANK AND TANK BRACKET NOT INCLUDED”.
I guess their definition of “complete” is different than my definition of same word.
BudW
SixBanger
Well-Known Member
So complete is it not. You need some electra switches etc. Here is Europe, a conversion for propane cost like 1.5-2K (Professionally installed). Depending on the type of vehicle, displacement engine.
SixBanger
Well-Known Member
Some pics and talk of the LPG installation.
The Impco evaporator is mounted on the driver's side of the engine bay. There is plenty enough space in this usa car to fit in all extra parts. The propane tank is mounted in the trunk. I like that there is also plenty enough space to put lots of garbage. I can easily transport larger presses and other tools without lack of space.
I had to say that I currently don't have done some work on engine/fuel system (change some fluids, checking conditions etc). Engine runs on propane good. Currently it has problems to run stationary on petrol. I want to order some new gaskets and put the carb in the ultrasonic cleaner at work. To get start from a clean base. The car should be driven the last years mostly on propane. The propane would be inserted in the middle of the air filter. Here you can change the setting.
Electric system of the conversion looks like simple. Just some relay and fuel switches. I want to get it some more organised and cleaner looking. In the driver's area you can switch changing the running on different fuels. From LPG to gasoline it is quite simple. You can switch it while you drive. The propane is switch off and the carb should be filled fast enough to drive along. But if you want to switch from gasoline to propane, you had use a different position of that fuel switch. This blocks the supply of petrol and no gas is evaporated. So the engine should shut down when the fuel in the carb is used. Then you can switch to propane, it is not advisable to do this driving!
The propane tank has a content of 60 liters, but it is only 80% filled due to safety. Now I drive mostly to my work 40 km a day. Driving lot through suburbs etc. So only a highway for a couple of miles. The average fuel consumption is around 5 km/l (14 mpg). Some long highway drive I get a better fuel consumption of 6-7 km/l (17-20 mpg).
The Impco evaporator is mounted on the driver's side of the engine bay. There is plenty enough space in this usa car to fit in all extra parts. The propane tank is mounted in the trunk. I like that there is also plenty enough space to put lots of garbage. I can easily transport larger presses and other tools without lack of space.
I had to say that I currently don't have done some work on engine/fuel system (change some fluids, checking conditions etc). Engine runs on propane good. Currently it has problems to run stationary on petrol. I want to order some new gaskets and put the carb in the ultrasonic cleaner at work. To get start from a clean base. The car should be driven the last years mostly on propane. The propane would be inserted in the middle of the air filter. Here you can change the setting.
Electric system of the conversion looks like simple. Just some relay and fuel switches. I want to get it some more organised and cleaner looking. In the driver's area you can switch changing the running on different fuels. From LPG to gasoline it is quite simple. You can switch it while you drive. The propane is switch off and the carb should be filled fast enough to drive along. But if you want to switch from gasoline to propane, you had use a different position of that fuel switch. This blocks the supply of petrol and no gas is evaporated. So the engine should shut down when the fuel in the carb is used. Then you can switch to propane, it is not advisable to do this driving!
The propane tank has a content of 60 liters, but it is only 80% filled due to safety. Now I drive mostly to my work 40 km a day. Driving lot through suburbs etc. So only a highway for a couple of miles. The average fuel consumption is around 5 km/l (14 mpg). Some long highway drive I get a better fuel consumption of 6-7 km/l (17-20 mpg).
SixBanger
Well-Known Member
Some update of a side project of the Volare. The car can drive both on petrol (now fixed) and on LPG. Currently I could not measure the amount of LPG. I tank after a fixed number of kilometers.
It seemed like a fun and useful project to make this measurable. There are various measurement systems for sale. But after my knowledge these are not as accurate and quite pricey.
Given this reason, I have been busy with a measurement system on an arduino board with LCD display.
The LPG tank is mounted on a matching frame in the trunk of the car. The idea is that the weight of the tank and frame is measured. This is realized by two load cells.
These load cells are mounted on the frame of the LPG tank.
The total weight of the tank is not fully absorbed by the load cells.
It is important to calibrate the whole.
When the tank is empty, the whole can be calibrated as a 'start value' to show 0 liters of liquid. This is also called the offset value. The second is calibrating with a quantity of fuel, as being 'scale value'.
As shown in the images, the amount is still displayed in kilograms on the LCD screen. This needs to be adjusted with the accompanying density of the liquid.
Given that there are still entries of the arduino available, I also added a thermocouple to read the exhaust gas temperature of the engine. This seemed nice to me to read.
The script and system are running. Now install it in the car.
If someone is interested in the script and wiring, you are free to ask!
It seemed like a fun and useful project to make this measurable. There are various measurement systems for sale. But after my knowledge these are not as accurate and quite pricey.
Given this reason, I have been busy with a measurement system on an arduino board with LCD display.
The LPG tank is mounted on a matching frame in the trunk of the car. The idea is that the weight of the tank and frame is measured. This is realized by two load cells.
These load cells are mounted on the frame of the LPG tank.
The total weight of the tank is not fully absorbed by the load cells.
It is important to calibrate the whole.
When the tank is empty, the whole can be calibrated as a 'start value' to show 0 liters of liquid. This is also called the offset value. The second is calibrating with a quantity of fuel, as being 'scale value'.
As shown in the images, the amount is still displayed in kilograms on the LCD screen. This needs to be adjusted with the accompanying density of the liquid.
Given that there are still entries of the arduino available, I also added a thermocouple to read the exhaust gas temperature of the engine. This seemed nice to me to read.
The script and system are running. Now install it in the car.
If someone is interested in the script and wiring, you are free to ask!
89.Fifth
Well-Known Member
That's really amazing! How are you calculating fuel density? I've been wanting to mess with car based Arduino projects for a while. What I really want is a fuel economy/consumption gauge.
SixBanger
Well-Known Member
After some searching on the web I found some information to calculating the fuel density of LPG.
Knowing that LPG consist of a mixture of propane (60%) and butane (40%). The ratio changes according to the outside temperature. I have heard that in the winter relatively more propane is being seen that butane has a higher boiling point.
Density of liquid propane = 510 kg/m3 and butane = 587 kg/m3. So a theoretical average density of 541 kg/m3.
For gasoline it is more easier 710 kg/m3.
I think this sort of fuel measurement would go as well for gasoline. But challenge is to build another tank straps to fit the sensors + keep tank on the right place! This also applies for the LPG tank. I had a idea to fix the sensors, but are thinking to build another method to fix the sensors correctly.
If you have fuel quantity, you should easily measure fuel consumption on an Arduino based. Add a hall sensor on the drive shaft for example and a real time module to measure speed.
Do you maybe have other ideas to calculate fuel economy?
Knowing that LPG consist of a mixture of propane (60%) and butane (40%). The ratio changes according to the outside temperature. I have heard that in the winter relatively more propane is being seen that butane has a higher boiling point.
Density of liquid propane = 510 kg/m3 and butane = 587 kg/m3. So a theoretical average density of 541 kg/m3.
For gasoline it is more easier 710 kg/m3.
I think this sort of fuel measurement would go as well for gasoline. But challenge is to build another tank straps to fit the sensors + keep tank on the right place! This also applies for the LPG tank. I had a idea to fix the sensors, but are thinking to build another method to fix the sensors correctly.
If you have fuel quantity, you should easily measure fuel consumption on an Arduino based. Add a hall sensor on the drive shaft for example and a real time module to measure speed.
Do you maybe have other ideas to calculate fuel economy?
SixBanger
Well-Known Member
Hey guys!
The engine uses some oil, around 1 liter a 1000 km. I know, it is a old engine but maybe I could reduce the use of oil consumption.
A couple of weeks ago I did a compression test for the cylinders as a health check of the engine. Also I did check the state of spark plugs and take a look at the valves with a camera.
First I did check the compression of each cylinder without adding some oil. And second compression test with some oil. Maybe that the difference could show the state of wear of the piston rings.
The max. difference of compression pressure was around 15 psi of all cylinders on both test. The average pressure without oil was 150 psi and with some oil 155 psi.
The spark plugs of cylinder 2 and 6 are slightly wet from oil. This can also be seen in the combustion chambers. However, all valves look good at first sight. The engine is also equipped with Flashlube lubrication.
These values are within the set minimum values of the manual. When I look at it like this, the block seems healthy in terms of compression pressure? Does anyone have an explanation for the possible oil consumption? Thanks advance!
The engine uses some oil, around 1 liter a 1000 km. I know, it is a old engine but maybe I could reduce the use of oil consumption.
A couple of weeks ago I did a compression test for the cylinders as a health check of the engine. Also I did check the state of spark plugs and take a look at the valves with a camera.
First I did check the compression of each cylinder without adding some oil. And second compression test with some oil. Maybe that the difference could show the state of wear of the piston rings.
The max. difference of compression pressure was around 15 psi of all cylinders on both test. The average pressure without oil was 150 psi and with some oil 155 psi.
The spark plugs of cylinder 2 and 6 are slightly wet from oil. This can also be seen in the combustion chambers. However, all valves look good at first sight. The engine is also equipped with Flashlube lubrication.
These values are within the set minimum values of the manual. When I look at it like this, the block seems healthy in terms of compression pressure? Does anyone have an explanation for the possible oil consumption? Thanks advance!
Compression looks great!
Great chart, by the way.
I would consider replacing your valve stem seals – which can be done without dissembling the engine. Valve stem seals are made of soft rubber – but after a while, they turn rock hard and shatter.
If you were to remove the valve cover and with the aid of a flashlight and looking between the valve springs – you may find a few missing valve seals and/or broken seal fragments laying about.
There is two different ways to replace the valve seals on car. One is using compressed air. The other is to use an old (American?) Indian rope trick. Both methods work fine – it just depends on what tools you have access to.
It will take about 2-3 hours to change all 12 valve seals.
This is what the original valve seals will look like
This design is snug on the valve stem and will move when the valve moves and is referred to an umbrella seal (shields oil splash like an umbrella).
Newer design valve seals look like this
This design is made to press snugly on the valve guide. The inner part wipes oil away when valve moves up/down. This design is not known to get brittle and shatter like the above design does – but the inner seal can wear in time where it contacts the valve stem. This design might require some machine work on valve guides to fit correctly.
This design is referred to positive seal.
Personally, I prefer the umbrella design for I like to see a smidge of oil reach the valve guide itself. The positive seal design allows for no oil to reach the valve guide. This might be good for newer engines but for our design engines – I feel a bit of oil helps (which is my opinion, only).
Now if a person is using a newer cylinder head, like aftermarket aluminum head – then positive seals would be the way to go, sense the valve guides will be of a newer material that will handle the lack of oil.
Note: you do have some piston ring wear – but with your compression readings as high as they are – I don’t think it will be cost effective to replace the rings, at this time. I would change the valve seals and recheck your oil consumption rate.
When those rubber umbrella seals shatter – oil consumption goes up, a lot.
BudW
Great chart, by the way.
I would consider replacing your valve stem seals – which can be done without dissembling the engine. Valve stem seals are made of soft rubber – but after a while, they turn rock hard and shatter.
If you were to remove the valve cover and with the aid of a flashlight and looking between the valve springs – you may find a few missing valve seals and/or broken seal fragments laying about.
There is two different ways to replace the valve seals on car. One is using compressed air. The other is to use an old (American?) Indian rope trick. Both methods work fine – it just depends on what tools you have access to.
It will take about 2-3 hours to change all 12 valve seals.
This is what the original valve seals will look like
This design is snug on the valve stem and will move when the valve moves and is referred to an umbrella seal (shields oil splash like an umbrella).
Newer design valve seals look like this
This design is made to press snugly on the valve guide. The inner part wipes oil away when valve moves up/down. This design is not known to get brittle and shatter like the above design does – but the inner seal can wear in time where it contacts the valve stem. This design might require some machine work on valve guides to fit correctly.
This design is referred to positive seal.
Personally, I prefer the umbrella design for I like to see a smidge of oil reach the valve guide itself. The positive seal design allows for no oil to reach the valve guide. This might be good for newer engines but for our design engines – I feel a bit of oil helps (which is my opinion, only).
Now if a person is using a newer cylinder head, like aftermarket aluminum head – then positive seals would be the way to go, sense the valve guides will be of a newer material that will handle the lack of oil.
Note: you do have some piston ring wear – but with your compression readings as high as they are – I don’t think it will be cost effective to replace the rings, at this time. I would change the valve seals and recheck your oil consumption rate.
When those rubber umbrella seals shatter – oil consumption goes up, a lot.
BudW
SixBanger
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your answer and information! Didn't know before that there are different styles of valve stem seals. I have already a complete gasket set for the engine. But I see positive seal type for the intake (mahle ss45623). I think the engine is equipped with umbrella types and would change it with those again. But first I would get the valve cover off to see if some where gone. Thank!
