OY pics and plans

[old yellow 78]

we can sure give a lot of suggestions

Thanks for all your info Bud. I would agree that a basic rebuild would be helpful. Although OY only has about 30K original miles, it is going on 44 years old. I also know that the original owner was an older woman who obviously didn't drive it much, but also likely didn't maintain it much either. Her grandson made reference to her not driving stick shift very well, and after a few years, she largely stopped driving it, instead driving a pickup truck instead. So, I don't think that it has been babied, I think it has just been largely ignored and forgotten until I found it. So, yes, all new gaskets and valve seals would make a lot of sense if only because of age. I'm surprised to hear that the timing chain is plastic! I did not expect that. If so, it too should obviously be changed - again due to aging plastic and questionable duribility.
The conversion to fuel injection is something I had not thought of, but sounds like a good idea. Would I be able to use the stock two barrel intake? How would I deal with the octopus of vacuum hoses currently coming into and out of the Carter BBD? Would it need any mechanical or electrical modifications for it to work, or would it be largely a bolt-on switch? Where would I find one? I like the idea of a "throttle body" (?) type keeping the original look with the stock air cleaner.
You are also right about Mopar not paying much attention to paint detail back when originally assembled. My door jambs are ok, but the hinges, particularly for the rear doors had very thin paint and have noticable surface rust on them now. That is about the only place on the entire car that has any rust. Under the hood is not rusted at all, but not nicely detailed either. Ideally, I'd like to pull the engine to send out to be rebuilt, and have the car, jambs, and engine bay prepped and resprayed the original Classic Cream yellow while the engine is out. But again, while that sounds great, it also sounds expensive.
Your plans for putting in A/C in your wagon sounds great and certainly ambitious. I'd love to have A/C in my wagon, but that is really beyond my comprehension. And really, about the only time that I would use it would be driving it to the Chrysler Nationals at Carlisle in early July when it is typically blazing hot. OY typically rides out all weather extremes chilling in it's garage.

 

[old yellow 78]

I don't seeing you changing the car over to an automatic.

You got that right!

 

[Aspen500]

Probably a typo but, the timing CHAIN isn't plastic, the cam gear has plastic (aka nylon) teeth on a steel sprocket. That was done for noise reduction, although I've never heard a difference after replacing with all steel sprockets. Problem with the nylon is, especially after many many years, it'll not give any warning. the car will be running fine and then,,,,,,,,,,,,dead with no compression. Have had that experience twice in my life and they always break at the worst possible time and place.

I was reading that a little port work on S6 heads does wonders. I don't mean enlarging them or anything, just smoothing and taking out some of the lumps and hiccups to smooth the air flow out. I've never checked the intake to head port match up but would think the old stand by of port matching would help a bit also.

About the factories attention, or lack thereof, to detail. I've always said about restorations, do you want it restored to as new condition or do you want it to be nice? They are two different things. Restored to as new from the factory, the car would only get 50 out of 100 points at a judged show. I still remember, even though I was only 4 1/2 years old, when we got the new '68 Coronet. The paint looked lumpier than a navel orange, under the hood were drips and snot runs everywhere, the rr door leaked air bad and the engine looked like it had been painted by a blind guy. Either that or they were running low on orange paint that day.

 

[old yellow 78]

Thanks again AJ/FormS for your detailed explainations. I understand somewhat better what you are talking about now. I both like and dislike the A833 OD trans. Fourth gear (overdrive) is really too high to be of much use except on the highway, which I rarely drive OY on. Yet, it is nice to have four gears instead of only three. It sounds like the idea of an upgraded cam is out (which is fine), and would only lead to a bunch more work. My money might be better spent increasing cylinder pressure (replacing the pistons), and possibly putting on a header. It's complicated to know what to do when I don't know much about this.

With only 30,000miles on the clock, I would leave the basic engine alone. (see note-1). But I would put the biggest rear gear in the back that still allowed a cruise-rpm around 2400 to 2600.

Are you talking about the rear differential, or the fourth gear? I think all the F wagons came with a 3.25 rear diff. which my wagon has.
All this is only at the thinking stage at this point because of my being overloaded with other work. I haven't even had time to put on the stupid mirror and put my dash back together yet, but I'd like to get as much information about this that I can, so I can learn more about it, research it, and take my time deciding what to do and how to spend my money on it.
So, thanks again guys for all of the input, and if anyone else has ideas or suggestions, please post.

 

[old yellow 78]

the timing CHAIN isn't plastic, the cam gear has plastic (aka nylon) teeth on a steel sprocket

HA! That makes a lot more sense!

a little port work on S6 heads does wonders. I don't mean enlarging them or anything, just smoothing and taking out some of the lumps and hiccups to smooth the air flow out. I've never checked the intake to head port match up but would think the old stand by of port matching would help a bit also.

Great info! That is more of the kind of work I was thinking of. Just tweeking the SS, but I'm not opposed to more significant work if that is what is needed to make if a great little wagon.

do you want it restored to as new condition or do you want it to be nice? They are two different things.

Good point! I'm not really interested in it being completely "factory". I've already changed it beyond that point, but have done nothing that couldn't be reversed. But then why would I, or anyone else, ever reverse it to "factory built"? It isn't a Duesenberg. I have only made changes to it that I wanted because the "factory" status was less than I wanted (ex: SE interior rather than uncomfortable bench; Hurst shifter rather than stock). I think I am trying to build (very slowly) the perfect F in my mind - or as close to it as I can get. So, bottom line, I want it to be "nice". Really "nice".

 

[BudW]

AJ was talking about the differential gears. My wagon has a 2.91 ratio. 3.21 is a possible ratio. 3.07 ratio will fit (but wasn't an option for our year cars). 3.55 is a fun ratio (a city gear) – but top speed be more limited for highway use. If you are looking at changing the differential gear ratio, be sure to add a limited slip to the mix (well worth the money to upgrade to one, if one is not already there).

On a side note: I am highly considering replacing my A904 automatic in my wagon with a Tremec 5 (or 6) speed manual transmission. The 5 speed has 1-4 speeds (like an A833 without overdrive) but with an overdrive. 6-speed has 2 overdrive speeds – which might be too much for a /6 (. . . maybe).

Passon Performance makes an A833 retrofit (fits 5 speeds and reverse) into the same case you currently have – which makes it also a normal 4 speed with overdrive and called it (855). Everything you currently have will fit this upgrade (will bolt right in) where as the Tremec upgrades are a bit more involved.


Here is a picture of a plastic timing chain (plastic teeth on an aluminum hub).

By the way, they don't make 'em in plastic anymore (had too many problems with 'em).


Holley Sniper makes a BBD replacement (but for a Jeep) Holley Sniper EFI 550-860K Holley Sniper EFI BBD Master Kit for Jeep CJ - Classic Gold . There are other members here using the Holley Sniper 4-bbl appearing F.I. Units. This one will require a small bit of linkage modification – but should work fine.

This kit will require a different air cleaner: #HD273 Chrysler 273 CID TBI Conversion Kit - Howell EFI Conversion & Wiring Harness Experts There are other choices out there too.

The fuel injection would be nice if you drove the car a lot or you wanted it to start, the first time every time. Would help out on fuel mileage and most of all, drivability. The question is, is it worth it. It will be to me – but I plan on driving my cars every day.


Your engine compartment could use a bit of cleaning but overall, in much better shape than mine is.

Changing to A/C takes a bit of work and might not be one I would recommend for you.
Gathering the different parts is one hurdle.
The bigger hurdle is the firewall differences. The '76-79 A/C firewall is radically different. The '80-89 A/C firewall is a lot closer to a match – but holes (heater hoses, expansion valve & blower motor) are still in the wrong place
BudW

 

[Aspen500]

When I added A/C to my Aspen, it was with an A/C firewall and inner fender from the parts car the inside A/C stuff came from (all underhood parts were gone) and the sheetmetal is quite a bit different between A/C and heat only. You could always go with an aftermarket retro fit kit from Classic Air or similar company.

 

[old yellow 78]

My wagon has a 2.91 ratio. 3.21 is a possible ratio. 3.07 ratio will fit (but wasn't an option for our year cars). 3.55 is a fun ratio (a city gear)

Well, in that case, I don't know what gear ratio it has. I was told it was a 3.25 rear end. But then, I am not sure what that actually means. Consequently, I have no idea what I should have it changed to - if I were to change it.

Passon Performance makes an A833 retrofit (fits 5 speeds and reverse) into the same case you currently have – which makes it also a normal 4 speed with overdrive and called it (855). Everything you currently have will fit this upgrade (will bolt right in)

Wow, very cool! I did not know that existed. I had my A833 OD rebuilt when I first got the car, and I also have a spare A833 OD. It would be a fun project to retrofit the spare trans which I could probably do myself with enough time and good instructions. A good learning experience. The down side is that it likely costs a fortune, but I will look it up. I have long ago spent way more on my wagon than I could ever get for it, but I try not to think about that. It is a fun toy for me, not an investment, and I have no plans to get rid of it either.

Here is a picture of a plastic timing chain (plastic teeth on an aluminum hub).

Now I remember reading about this quite a while ago on this site, or the one I used to belong to (never venture there anymore). I'm sure that my wagon still has it's original timing chain and sprockets. It is a good idea to change them out as AJ and you suggested simply due to 43 years of sitting around.

The fuel injection would be nice if you drove the car a lot or you wanted it to start, the first time every time. Would help out on fuel mileage and most of all, drivability. The question is, is it worth it. It will be to me – but I plan on driving my cars every day.

Agreed. I don't drive my wagon much at all, and almost never in the winter months unless it is absolutely salt free and nice weather. So, would it be "worth it". Well, I don't know. OY always starts right up with little trouble even when it is bitterly cold. Here is a video I made of it a couple years ago cold starting @ 19 degrees when it had been banished from it's garage in favor of more building supplies.




So, starting isn't the issue, but improved "drivability" is. That is exactly what I am looking for, and I think if I could get the changes that I am hoping for, I would drive it more often. I will have to check out these Holley Sniper replacements. Linkage modification I could probably handle myself. Again, the only problem might be cost - again, is it worth it? Humm. I'll have to see how much they are.

Changing to A/C takes a bit of work and might not be one I would recommend for you.

Your engine compartment doesn't look like anything that a wire brush and paint couldn't handle. Mine has a bit of surface rust, but very little. More, it is just thin worn paint and dirt. I really would prefer to have it painted along with the entire car instead of rattle canning it. Not that I have immediate plans to do either one. Ha, A/C is definitely NOT on my list of things to do. That is way beyond my skills, and I really don't think I would ever really need it, not being a daily driver. I actually don't even need the heater, but it does work - lol.

 

[old yellow 78]

When I added A/C to my Aspen, it was with an A/C firewall and inner fender from the parts car

Wow, are you saying that you cut out and replaced the original firewall with an A/C firewall? That's impressive. Your coupe is really beautiful. I wish I had such skills with metal. Now, if OY was assembled with mortice and tendon joints, and hand dovetailing, well different story.

 

[Aspen500]

The firewall from the cowl seam down and both inner fenders came from a parts car. They're welded in to undo the semi-pro street life the car had in the early '90's (what WAS I thinking back then?) The firewall was tunneled and it had struts from the cowl to the front frame rails with no inner fenders, Hooker Super Comp fenderwell headers, no heater, and, well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you get the idea. Not one of my proudest moments or best ideas. No, I have no pictures with the car in that configuration.

In this climate, a summer only car still needs a heater. In fall, it may be warm during the day but the mornings and nights it could be in the 30's, 20's or even teens. Heck, even in summer when it got up to 90 in the afternoon, the night might drop into the 40's so heat is nice to have. A/C isn't mandatory but it sure is nice to have on the 80, 90, 100 degree days. Wasn't so much when I was 25, but seems at 57 I really like having it. Must be getting soft, lol

 

[old yellow 78]

The Holley Sniper 550-860K lists at Summit for $1393.

The 550-858K lists for $1337:

In the questions section, someone said that it bolts directly to the "late '70's Super Six manifold". The only difference I can see between them is that the former is a gold color which doesn't matter to me. While expensive, if it truly made a significant difference in drivability, I might go for it.

The Passon Performance A-855 complete five speed transmission lists for $5995, and they have no stock available. They list a "Complete Conversion Kit starting at $3895" and say to "inquire for a personal quotation by filling the form below" (which is nowhere to be seen). Unfortunately, either of those two prices is more than I want to spend on the transmission alone. Too bad, but it was a good idea while it lasted.

I also checked Brewers Performance to see if they offered any kind of conversion kit, but found nothing. Looks like the A-833 OD will have to do.

 

[old yellow 78]

Another thought: would I have to install an electric fuel pump for the EFI unit?

 

[Aspen500]

Yes, you also need a high pressure fuel system. The EFI needs 58 psi. and also a return line to the tank. Thing I don't like about externally mounted electric fuel pumps is the noise. When I was thinking about EFI for my Aspen, I had decided that if I did do it, I'd use the Hyper Fuel set up. The stock mechanical pump feeds a reservoir with an enclosed pump and regulator.

HyperFuel 40004 Hyperfuel Fuel Command Center 2.0 Fuel Pumps | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Hyperfuel Fuel Command Center 2.0 Fuel Pumps with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Fuel Pumps at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

 

[BudW]

Fuel injection needs more pressure than a mechanical fuel pump can provide. To get a consistent fuel injector spray pattern - some systems need 15 PSI and others 80 PSI (each system is different).
Note, some of today's (gasoline) direct injection systems run about 2,500 PSI. There is no really other way to get around using an electric fuel pump if going injected.

The problem with electric fuel pumps is they need to be at (or below) the lowest point in fuel tank for best performance. Electric pumps do a much better job on pushing fuel than pulling fuel (which is one reason why having an electric pump in or around the engine bay is a bad idea) or another way to put it is “electric pumps suck at sucking”. Below the fuel tank can cause problems with ground clearance. The last thing you want to do is drive over a stick (or something) which knocks off your fuel pump (could result in a having “bad” or a “very bad day”).
Note: diaphragm (mechanical) pumps do a good job at sucking but not at providing a high pressure.

Frame mounted fuel pumps work well – but can be noisy to very noisy. Having an electric pump bolted onto the engine will eliminate some noise, but you still have the distance via sucking problem, as mentioned above.

The method @Aspen500 mentioned is a good idea. Hiding it under the fender (between the inner and outer fender) might be a good idea. Those of us with V8's have a bit more room between the engine and passenger side inner fender, than those with /6's have.

For what I have researched, I think this design is better – which is to put the electric fuel pump inside of the fuel tank – which keeps the pump cooler.
The Phantom - Aeromotive, Inc

This is a different version of same pump - but gives an idea on how it looks.
Note: the black outer part is a slosh cup. It prevents the fuel pump from sucking air on a hard brake or another maneuver that might allow the pump to suck air. The system that @Aspen500 mentions does the same thing but outside of the fuel tank.

I do not recommend cutting into or welding on a old fuel tank – so I got a new gas tank to work on. You never know what surprises lurk inside of a 43 year old fuel tank.

Carbureted engines (like both of my cars and yours) do not run well on ethanol fuel (10% alcohol). Also the alcohol is not good on carburetor parts. Going fuel injected will fix that problem and you can use fuel from whatever pump you want.
BudW

 

[Aspen500]

Having the pump inside the tank is always better but it requires more specialized skills (like leak free welding) and a new tank or, the old being boiled out if your city has a radiator shop that still does that (we're lucky and have Glen-Ray Radiators here). The type shown is the best way to go because of the reservoir around the pump motor so it's always submerged in the fuel, which keeps it cool. Also muffles the pump noise. The reservoir stays full with the return fuel directed into it.

 

[Kramer79]

Anyone else wish Bud and Aspen lived closer?

 

[Aspen500]

LOL, it's only like 1,100 miles from Connecticut to here, give or take a hundred

 

[BudW]

It's only 1,000 miles to WI or 1,600 miles to CT, from here.

 

[old yellow 78]

Well, all this information is great, and I understand more than I did about modifications that can be done. But, it's also discouraging. The FI sounded like a good idea until the issue of electric fuel pump emerged. At this point, it seems that it would be very easy for me to go down rabbit holes of modifications of ever increasing complexity and expense. In addition to the cost of these expensive mods, I would most likely have to have a mechanic do most of the work. And, to find a mechanic who actually even knows what a "Slant Six" is, might be a challenge. I think I would rather focus on what modifications might be closer to my skills, and budget. Then again, I could just leave it alone and drive it like it is. Kind of disappointing, but a lot less work and money. Working with wood and on houses is a lot easier. Oh well.

 

[Aspen500]

As with a lot of things, one modification leads to another, which requires another modification, and then you have to modify something else, but then that modification has to have something else changed so the original modification will work..............................As you said, rabbit hole. Applies to cars and houses alike.