OY pics and plans

[old yellow 78]

Wow! Thanks Bud! You make it sound easy. When I was taking the mirror off, it wasn't the best of conditions, as I was in a real hurry and I was working in mud. Now, taking my time at my own garage, and working with your ideas, it sounds like fun. I have never heard of a "metal hole punch" but it sounds a lot easier than trying to drill a bunch of holes and using a huge bit.

So, I was poking around the garage looking for tools and also trying to find the mirror. Well, I didn't find the mirror, but I did find some of my other toys that have been MIA for a few years now!

The first thing I found was the lower dash panel which is for an F body with the remote passenger mirror. It has the little hole and plastic grommet on the far right side to mount the control. I'm guessing the mirror can't be too far away from where I found this piece.

Then, I found my set of metal Ventshades off of my old wrecked '76 Aspen SE wagon from many years ago. They are dusty but in good shape, and the bag with the mounting clips was with them! The back side of them is painted dark green and is in pretty good shape. I'll have to think about whether I want them on my wagon though. I am going for a very plain Jane look.

 

[old yellow 78]

I also unearthed the set of NOS Mopar door edge guards that I bought several years ago. I never put them on because I was going to wait until I got the wagon painted - and I just sort of forgot about them. They are pretty cool and I think they would give kind of a subtle bling to the sides, particularly when I take off those ugly black side strips.

 

[Mikes5thAve]

Cookbook the edge guards. I was never able to find a set.

 

[Sub03]

I have a set of four edge guards on my Aspen. I took them from a Volare on the local boneyard in the mid nineties. I like the way they stand out against the black paint.

 

[PLY478]

OY Did you get your pass side mirror mounted yet? Are you using a standard or Sport version mirror?

I may be able to help you here with the actual holes you need to drill in the door. As I have done this.

PLY478

 

[old yellow 78]

Cookbook the edge guards

eBay - several years ago.

 

[old yellow 78]

I like the way they stand out against the black paint.

So do I. They look great. Nice bit of understated flash, particularly for a black car.

 

[old yellow 78]

OY Did you get your pass side mirror mounted yet? Are you using a standard or Sport version mirror?

I may be able to help you here with the actual holes you need to drill in the door. As I have done this.

PLY478

Thanks PLY478!
No, I haven't even had time to look for the mirror yet. I'm involved in a big project that leaves little time for the wagon, but I hope to be able to get back to it soon - at least for brief periods. I'd be very appreciative of any info to help mounting the mirror. It is the regular chrome remote passenger mirror, not the sport mirror.

 

[PLY478]

Contact me before you plan to drill the holes.

 

[old yellow 78]

Contact me before you plan to drill the holes.

Hi PLY478.
I finally unearthed the passenger mirror for my wagon along with the attaching gasket and bracket. So I thought I would reach out to you for advice on how to go about attaching it, as you had offered. Any advice? I really don't want to screw it up. Thanks. OY.

 

[PLY478]

PM Sent

 

[old yellow 78]

PLANS AND A FEW QUESTIONS...

I am spending most all of my time renovating another house, and have almost no time for my wagon these days, but that should change - hopefully by the fall. At least I got OY back into it's garage after being forced to have it sit outside for a couple months while I was storing appliances and building materials. The passenger mirror still isn't installed, and the dash is still ripped apart. Just no time right now.
Anyway, while I am working on the house, I am finding myself thinking about OY and what I want to do with it. The interior is pretty much settled with the new carpet and plaid SE seats installed, and the plaid door panels and a bunch of other fun parts waiting to be put in.
For the exterior, I plan to keep it quite plain except for the Road Wheels. I need to get new tires (blackwalls) after I repaint and detail the wheels, and I have removed the adhesive side trim from the passenger side, but not the drivers side yet. I have the fender mount turn signal lights to put on, and the chrome Ventishades for the windows. I'm going to tint the rear cargo area windows and the rear door windows. I have both NOS tailights, NOS "Aspen" insignias, and repop side marker lights. I'm also extremely lucky to have an almost perfect grille for it, but that will not go on until I am completely done with everything else. I also have a nice roof rack, but I don't think I want to put it on. I can't bear to drill holes in the roof, and also I'm looking for a real plain, clean look.
I'm undecided as to whether to have it repainted or not. The original "Classic Cream" light yellow is ok, but is thin in some places, and it has a few small dents - the most noticable one in the drivers fender. I have NOS replacement fenders if I do decide to repaint it. It has a few small hail dings on the roof (it was a Colorado car) but I think that could be fixed easily with PDR. I would keep it the original Classic Cream color but would have the door jambs done and also remove all the trim and bumpers for the paint job. I'd like to have the engine compartment repainted too, but it might be cost prohibitive. Alturnatively, I could just polish and wax the existing paint and think of it more as a "survivor".
Now, the thing that I have been thinking about the most recently is what to do with the engine. It has only about 30,000 miles on it's original Slant Super Six. It runs well, but I would like to have it be more energetic. It is a fine cruiser, but not quick. I think it is choked with too much emission stuff, and it is also simply 43 years old and has been sitting around for most of it's life. I am not interested in any kind of racing or such, but I know that the Slant Sixes can be modified to be quite spirited - and that's what I would like. I am thinking of things such as a header, Magnaflow and cat removal. I'd like to get rid of the emissions stuff as it is registered as an "antique" and not subject to inspections.
But, what would any of you fellow members suggest as far as rebuilding or modifying the engine itself? Should I stick with the stock two barrel, or not. Would it be worth considering a different cam or other internal changes? I am a much better carpenter and cabinetmaker than mechanic, so I would probably have these changes done by a professional. And if I did that, how would I go about finding someone who knows the Slant Sixes well enough these days to do the work? I look forward to the day when it is all done and can cruise around in this beautiful rare wagon with a tweeked Super Six mumbling and rumbling under the hood! Sweet!
Let me know your thoughts please. Thanks!

 

[Sub03]

I do not have any advice regarding the slant, but I have to say I love the clean look of your wagon. The wheels looks just right for it in my opinion.

 

[AJ/FormS]

slanty engines of that era suffer from three shortcomings;
1) very low cylinder pressure, and
2) crummy Ignition controls, and
3) restricted exhausts.
4) additionally the cars came with lousy gears and very low stall TCs; see note-1

If I was embarking down this road I would attack this in the following order;
1) A Performance Convertor; I love the 2800
2) gears; I would shoot for a starter gear of at least 8/1 with the hi-stall, or 9/1 with a stock stall. see note-2
3) Do an exhaust pressure test just in front of the Cat; if you see 4psi get rid of it. If you see 2psi or less, leave it alone. In between, let your budget decide
4) fix the ignition timing
5) open up the exhaust, AND fix the cylinder pressure.
6) IMO, forget a hotter cam, unless you first boost the compression.... a lot. see note-3


Note-1
Low number gears keep the engine in a low-efficiency zone. With 27inch tires for instance; and a 2.45 rear gear the engine is not likely to see 3000rpm in 2.45 first gear until ~35mph. With a 2000 stall, that's probably an average of less than 80hp, guessing..
Whereas with 4.10s, 3000 comes at 22 mph, and with a 2800TC the average might be 20hp higher. By 35 mph, with the 4.10s, she might be cooking along at 4800. I'm not saying you should run 4.10s. Just comparing numbers.
note-2
That is to say;
with a stock TC, and
a 2.45 low, go to 9/2.45=3.73s; or with an A999 then 9/2.74=3.23s; and
if you have 2600 or more, and
a 2.45 low, then 8/2.45=3.23s or with an A999, then 8/2.74=2.94s. These are my recommended minimums.
note-3
You can get more cylinder pressure with a faster rate-of lift cam, but, generally, the Ica on a generic bigger cam, will be later, driving your cylinder pressure down., hurting your low-rpm performance. If you already have a 2800TC then ok.
note-4
The rest of the pollution controls are not costing you much in performance; only the poor timing and low cylinder pressure are hurting you. Things like the Evap stuff, the EGR, and the A.I.R., are modest to zero losses.

 

[old yellow 78]

I love the clean look of your wagon. The wheels looks just right for it in my opinion.

Thanks Sub03! I like it too. I always liked the F bodies since the first time I saw one when they first came out. The wagon originally came with black steel wheels with dogdish hubcaps (which are on it currently) and I also kept the Rally Wheels off my deceased '78 Aspen T-top too in case I decide to use them on it. But the ones I really like are these Road Wheels I got off the parts car I got the plaid interior from. These Uniroyal tires had hardly any wear, but were old and they dryrotted suddenly and severely last year so I got rid of them. I thought about putting whitewalls on the Road Wheels but I think the blackwalls would be more the look I'm going for. I'm really pleased with how the new leaf springs and shocks sit the rear end up just enough.

 

[old yellow 78]

Thanks AJ/FormS. I appreciate your input, but I don't understand a lot of it. I'm not a mechanic so much of what you are talking about is foreign to me. But, you do give good info for me to pass on to someone who might do the work on the engine (I'd be able to do a lot more to it if the engine was made out of wood). If you are referring to the A833, I don't want to change that out. I just wanted to see if there was modifications that could be made to make the Super Six more lively and responsive. I'm not looking for a race car, just a cool driver. I had heard that a header and lower restriction muffler (like the Magnaflow 60) might help. I think the 60 rather than the 40 because I don't want it to be too loud, but just enough. I also think the timing has a lot to do with it, but I don't know how to "fix it". Also, what is a "2800 Performance Converter"?

 

[BudW]

Only you can answer on what to do to your vehicle – but we can sure give a lot of suggestions.

First of all, 40 year old engine seals and gaskets do not hold up that well over time. Even with my two engines ('77 and '86 318's) – both are leaking oil quite bad. On both engines, the gaskets have dried up over time and even all of the bolts were all loose. At least today's seals/gaskets are much better than they were back then – but to do a decent job, you really need to remove the engine.

I am convinced, that a good double layer of engine paint on every gasket area (after assembly), will give even a better chance of a dry engine. Also, good prep work by making sure all gasket surfaces are clean, dry and not oily (paint doesn't stick to oil, nor does gaskets). Make sure all tin (timing/valve cover and oil pan) is straight at all of the bolt holes (this can take more time than most thinks it does – but well worth the effort) – if not slightly concave (the other way).
Be sure to use a layer of grease on the the front crank seal – to prevent any scratches/tears to the seal during install.
The rear main seal is rope and can also dry out over time. The rope seal take extra steps to make it seal properly.

If you have the rocker arms off on an older vehicle – always replace the valve stem seals. They will not leak oil externally, but can increase oil consumption. Those black rubber umbrella seals will get rock hard over time and in some, correction, all cases on older cars, will become like charcoal and will shatter. The umbrella seals should be fairly soft. I would bet the valve seals on your engine have already hardened and I suspect you might have at least two (of twelve) seals already crumbled.
One good thing about having bad valve stem seals, is it prevents valve guide wear.
The bad thing is it makes cleaning carbon deposits harder (because there is more of it).

Get rid of the plastic timing chain. The /6 timing chain/gears are the same one used for big blocks – so there are plenty of sources out there. Today's timing chains are a bit noisier but will last a lifetime.

I can't speak about a camshaft. Manual transmissions can allow for a bit more radical camshaft and in most cases won't be noticed by others – but, again, no opinion here.
I don't think will apply to your 30k mile engine – but if car had double the miles you would have a high likelihood the camshaft being wore out.

If it was my engine, I would consider replacing the pistons with one of higher compression. I don't know about your year engine, but the '77 /6 had 8.4:1 compression ratio, which is not enough. Even the 8.6:1 for my '77 318 is not enough (it was 9.2:1 in '68).
This brings up the difference between static (SCR) and dynamic (DCR) compression ratios (the above numbers are static) and the camshaft used will determine your dynamic ratio.
Without knowing more, and if this was my car, I would consider replacing the pistons with 9.0 to 9.2:1 (SCR) – but there is more to the story. I'll let AJ go into more on this topic.
I know I will not build an engine with the SCR in the 8's – for it is wasted power.


All of the above will not have any outside appearance of any changes made to vehicle – unless you installed a radical camshaft.
One other change you can do, will make drivability and fuel mileage improve, will be fuel injection. If you get a throttle body design it will hide under the air cleaner and unless you told someone or removed the air cleaner – no one would know. I will be using aftermarket carburetor appearing throttle body fuel injection units for my cars – but I also plan on driving my cars every day, as well. There is at least two different companies making one that will fit the BBD bolt pattern. For the cost, I can get a 4-bbl appearing FI unit – which will suit me better in the long run, but for a /6, I don't think any more than a 2-bbl appearing FI will do one much good.


My '77 engine compartment was not detailed very well when it was built – and paint has came off in several locations. I'm sure that dirty panels, improper cleaning, and so forth is all a factor on my underhood looks the way it does. Some of my door hinges have zero paint on them is also a great example of improper detail before painting. I have some upgrades to make to my wagon and will correct the paint at the same time. The mods I will make is to replace the pair of core support plates for the 26” wide radiator and modify the firewall for A/C (going with the '80-89 A/C version instead of the '76-79 version firewall). I will also be installing subframe connectors. Once that is done, I can give the engine compartment the paint the detail it needs.
Side note: the underhood of my '86 looks great – other than being dirty. You can tell they spent a whole lot more time with prep before painting that car
The 18 inch wide radiator (currently in my wagon) will not handle A/C.

BudW

 

[BudW]

Also, what is a "2800 Performance Converter"?

This applies to an automatic transmission and refers to the stall speed of the torque converter. This will not apply to you, for I don't seeing you changing the car over to an automatic.

 

[AJ/FormS]

If you are referring to the A833, I don't want to change that out.

Also, what is a "2800 Performance Converter"?

Oh, so sorry, I forgot OY was a manual trans..
Ok then, that 3+1 transmission has ratios of;
3.09-1.67-1.00-.73od. With a clutch, I would be looking for a starter gear of at least 11/1, so ........... 11.0/3.09=3.55s in the back.
The ratios in this trans are quite far apart, and with 3.55s, 65mph=about 2170rpm. So, if it was my car I would be in NO hurry to swap out the factory cam.
The splits are .54-.60-.73.. What that means is that at whatever rpm that you shift at, the Rs will fall to those percents at each successive gear shifts. Say you up-shift into Second from 2800rpm in First. The Rs will fall to 2800 x.54=1512. So your engine better have some power at 1512 to pull the Rs up as you continue accelerating. Shifting into Third, from 2800 in Second, the Rs will fall to 2800 x.60=1680, and now you are doing 37mph. 37mph at 1680 means it could be a struggle to climb out of that. By 2800 in Third, the speed will be about 61mph. Then into od and 61=2035
So if you are gonna spend a lotta time on the hiway, this is a great rpm for the stock cam. But consider what happens when you want to pass someone doing say 58mph. I mean 58 is pretty aggravating to me. So, you downshift into Third and come up at 58=2650, not a lot of power there, so how about Second? Answer 4430; well that will never work. So you will be stuck behind that guy for who knows how long. Unless/until you find a place to slingshot past him.

Now; if you install a bigger same-style cam, with no other changes;
the engine will loose cylinder pressure and the bottom end will lose power. making EVERYTHING worse. With a clutch, the only way around this is by replacing those recommended-by-me 3.55s with a higher number gearset. Which, because you have an overdrive would seem to be an alright thing to do.
But this does not address the superwide ratios in the transmission. The splits do not change, so the rpm drops will be the same! Only the roadspeeds, at which those rpms occur will change, and now you have even less power at those rpms.
To overcome that problem, you HAVE to increase the cylinder pressure. So off comes the head.
But after the head is back on, with the additional pressure, and the bigger cam; the single exhaust is no longer able to keep up, leading to the installation of a header and a free-flowing exhaust. But after that, the carb is not allowing the cam to pump it up, so now you are out carb/intake-shopping.
So, as you can see, once you get into cam-swapping, there is a domino effect that takes place, and it all costs money.
With only 30,000miles on the clock, I would leave the basic engine alone. (see note-1). But I would put the biggest rear gear in the back that still allowed a cruise-rpm around 2400 to 2600.
With an 82" tire roll out, 2500@65 would allow 4.10s. And that gives you a starter gear of 3.09 x 4.10=12.67, and I guarantee you that take-off with this gear will kill a lot of stock-geared 318s. Maybe most. But as before, your splits have not changed, so upshifting from 2800 in First, into Second will get you 17 mph@1512rpm; ok, that is doable. And 2800 in Second is 32mph, and on the shift the Rs will fall to 1680 again, but yur not bucking the wind yet, so again, this is doable. Now 2800 in Third is 53mph, so you can scream that up to 58mph@3064 for passing that slowpoke, or to 65@3430 and stuff it into overdrive, for 65=2500.. I like it ...

Note-1
Bud's got you covered as to freshening the engine.
If you feel the need to pull the head, I would definitely consider milling it.

 

[AJ/FormS]

I know I will not build an engine with the SCR in the 8's – for it is wasted power.

I totally agree