American Muscle cars thinks Roadrunner Volare's are a mistake

[ramenth]

You are right, I don't own a B body, and I have only ridden in a couple of them. No, we did not take them to the scales.

All that aside, and even if we throw out all of the weights from all of the websites, let me ask the following questions:

So, I was right. No real world experience just throwing internet figures out there.

1. How does an F body mysteriously put on almost 500 lbs?

There's no mystery. Those are real world numbers put up from real world experience. Why do you have such a hard time believing people who actually own and drive those cars over what your internet research shows? I read it on the internet so it must be true?

2. I do own 3 J bodies, I have real world weights on all of them. My cars come in at 3500-3550 lbs. Please answer the following, from this point:

Finally, something from experience.

a. How does an slat 6 F body, which is smaller (coupe) weight the same as a larger bodied car, considering that the vast majority of the components are the same (engine, transmission, K member, front suspension, and rear axle)?

Because you're underestimating what the weight is from website numbers.

b. I am missing nothing. While I have yet to do this, from what I understand, the Big Block in an F or J (which I have plans for) does not cause the car to plow, nor to become unbalanced. Done properly, a Big Block can be brought down to about a 100-150 lbs increase in over a factory small block, 20-40 lbs of that can be reduced and help re-balance the car by moving the battery to the trunk. this is NOT speculation, there are more than a few F bodies with big blocks around, There are even some j Bodies around with big blocks. Not only doable, but quite usable, as well.

Again, you're not seeing the obvious:

That's what can be done to these cars, not what was done from the factory. The person in the video is making the point that box stock the '78 Road Runner doesn't hold a candle to the '68.

Hell, I can take one of my '69's, put an HDK or Alter-K under it, run an IRS out back, put a fuel injected RB nightmare of an engine under the hood and make it smoke any box stock Road Runner. But it's no longer the same car. Pay attention to those words: "box stock."

As for why I use websites to get weights, it si because I don't have an F body handy to weigh myself, just like I don't have a a 1968-1970 Road Runner for the same purpose, nor do I have every muscle car ever made to be able to do the same. If you do, then more power to you. The fact that I use logic, and multiple web sties that are fairly well trusted to get my numbers from is due to my not having infinite amounts of money and space to present real world arguments which is a failing on my part.

At least you understand it's a failing. You can't argue real world experience with what you read on the internet. If you want to continue to debate what you understand from the internet with what people who own these cars are telling you, then there really is no debate. I'm sorry, but the 2900# A-body is a myth. Go on over to FABO and you'll have guys telling you the car had to go on a serious diet to get it under 3000#.

And my response was due to somebody else posting a site that had incorrect weights on it. As for the person who said his slant 6 F body weighed 3490, and has mysteriously gained 400-500 lbs over the years, I plainly and simply don't understand that.

Then maybe you should ask him how that happened instead of arguing internet numbers with the who actually scaled his car.

As for A bodies not having big blocks, please take the time to look up the Dodge Dart GTS with a 383. Unless Dodge had decided to put in a Chevy stroker in the late 1960s, it would have been a Big Block Mopar. And no, I don't own one of those either, just so you know.

And those cars were meant for one thing: straight lines. They plowed like a pig running in mud because the B and RB motors weight over the front wheels. No one bought an H or M code A-body to go canyon carving with. It threw the body weight way out of proportion and still does anytime someone does it. Yes, they can be made to handle with HDK or Alter-K suspensions, but talk to a big block A-body owner and he'll tell you that it's not something he takes to WGI. It's something he takes to the 1/4 miles to aim and shoot.

As for the 1978-1979 Z28 not being a muscle car, please try to take that to a Chevy board, and see what type of response you get there with that statement. This is as arbitrary a statement as the one about the F body note being a muscle car. it may not be a muscle car to you, but I bet that there are plenty of people who would disagree with you.

Disagreement or not, it still doesn't change the definition of a muscle car. The late '70's Z28's, R/T's, and Road Runners don't fit the definition. Yes, the definition can be arbitrary, but the classic definition of muscle car is something you aim and shoot. Something that is meant for stop light and pro tree racing. A muscle car isn't powered by a 318 2bbl factory. Are you gonna lay claim that a 318 powered '69 Coronet is a muscle car? Or a slant powered Charger is a muscle car?

If as you say, the Corvette is not a muscle car, but a sports car, then why did the same show, "American Muscle" do an episode on it?

Aren't you the one who's arguing what "American Muscle" says about the F-body Road Runner? If you're disputing what they say in this episode why are you taking their word for gospel on a different episode?

If we are to abandon all common sense and logic, and allow this show to define "muscle car", then by the fact that they have done a show on the Corvette automatically defines it as a muscle car.

Again, you're arguing with them that the F-body Road Runner is a muscle car. Why, therefore, are you letting them define a 'Vette as a muscle car? (Got news for you, even 'Vette owners call 'em sports cars, not muscle cars.)

And by any definition you choose, the Hellcat Challenger is most definitely a muscle car.

Bullshit.

I don't care what standard of definition you use, the Hellcat Challenger is the top muscle car of all time, bar none, to this point.

Again, you're not understanding the traditional definition of what a muscle car is. Muscle cars weren't built to run corners, they weren't built to stop on a dime, they were built to be stripped down all out aim and shoot cars. They didn't like to idle in traffic, they were meant to tear up the quarter mile in a hurry. No one bought a '69 A12 car or an LS6 car to brag about how fast they went through the curves.

 

[ramenth]

Whether the definition is based on straight line performance, stopping, getting around corners, etc., name one parameter that it fails on. Too sophisticated? Maybe, but then again, what is wrong with sophistication when the performance is there? Don't say it had too many creature comforts, because a lot of the "real muscle cars" of the late 1960s were decked out as well (see GTX vs. Road Runner, the GTO, etc.) The original Road Runner was a partial response to that, but just because the Road Runner came into being, doesn't make the "duded up" cars any less a muscle car.

Dude, I own one of the "duded up cars" with a B engine under the hood. No one lays claim to a 383 powered Sport Satellite as a muscle car. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that lays claim to a GTX being a "pure" muscle car. Repeat after me: stripped out, big engine, lot's of horsepower.

In today Hellcat Challenger, you no only have all of the features/luxury, you have performance that can match a Lamborghini or Ferrari.

And you'll never find a Road Runner, back in the day, that matched up with Ferraris. So, in your definition, I guess the Hellcat is a true muscle car because it can and the '68 Road Runner isn't because it can't? Really? The Hellcat doesn't fit the definition of true muscle car anymore than the Ferrari does. Again, repeat after me: stripped out, big horsepower, good at aim and shoot. Something with raw horsepower that looks to beat you into submission.

Muscle means muscle, as in performance, period. A car that excites you when you drive it. And by my own definition, that includes the F body road runner, and the Hellcat Challenger. By your deifintion, it doesn't. So be it. However, I don't like the way the guy on the show put down the F body Road Runner.

I can hardly get excited about a "muscle car" (a 318 2bbl F-body) that doesn't actually have any muscle.

Instead of saying " it was just a trim package on a Volare",

It was.

he could have said "the F body Road Runner was not as fast as the earlier big block cars, but was as fast as any other muscle cars of the day", or something to that effect.

Unless it was properly equipped, it wasn't. A 318 2bbl car isn't gonna run with the big boys. If the F-body Road Runner came with the E58 as the base motor, then we'd talk.

The point can be made that the original Road Runner was just a trim package on a Belvedere; the Super Bee was a trim package on a Coronet, if that is the way you want to do this.

But the Road Runner wasn't a trim package on the Belvedere, just as the Bee wasn't a trim package on the Coronet. The Bel and the Coronet were standard slant motors. The Road Runner and the Bee came standard with a 383 and the Hemi as an option. In '68, the Hemi wasn't an option on the base Bel or the Coronet. The biggest motor you could option out was the 383-4bbl rated at 330 horsepower. You couldn't order a Road Runner and not get, automatically, a 335 horsepower engine. On the other hand the F-body Road Runner came with a small horse, small cubed two barrel engine and a bunch of decals unless you optioned for something bigger. It wasn't a purpose built factory hot rod.

 

[ramenth]

Well, I know why my car gained so much weight from when it was stock. Big block, 727, 8 3/4, crap load of sound deadening (Eastwood version of Dyna-Mat), A/C, chassis stiffening (sub frame connectors, rect tubing perimeter framing the engine compartment, cowl reenforcments, front sub frame from the tran x-member to just before the upper control arm brackets is the original with 1/8" "caps" fully welded on, etc) and probably some stuff I can't think of right now. It all adds up. Yes, it's a pig! Personally I think the handling is fine but I don't really drive aggressively. I'm sure it would understeer more than stock but it's no worse than most cars on the road.

The stock weight I posted may be a little off, it was a scale but an older one. The as it is now weight was done on a fairly new digital certified scale so in theory, it should be pretty accurate. Extra weight? Just need more power! Can we get a Tim The Tool Man grunt-grunt-grunt please! lol

Wow, you're actually admitting that the car is a pig? And you actually own one? You mean to tell me that you actually know from actually having experience with it?

My God, the world is going to implode.

 

[Mcfly68]

I fully agree with the article/ show. The roadrunner moniker ( and R/T for the aspen) should have never been put on the cars...they where nothing more than appearance packages after 72, one could argue after 71. The aspen/ volares where anemic performers ( as someone mentioned the 78 LRE was the fastest production vehicle in North America due mostly to no emission standards for trucks...79 started with the emissions for trucks and slowed down the LRE). It wasnt a performance package at all. They had horrible build quality, the largest automotive recall up to that time that almost bankrupted the company. Actually it did bankrupt the company, Lee Iacoca and the L/K car saved it the first time. Sure the car has potential and is a great alternative to the A,B, and E cars...but lets be honest, it was never a performance car for the factory with 16 to 18sec 1/4 mile times for the v8's, especially by 1986 when an omni could walk all over them with mid 14 sec times with Shelby's touches making them one of the fastest North American made vehicles. The Shelby's would be close to being the "muscle car" equivalent. A purpose built PACKAGE that was available basically one way ( yes you could get creature comforts)..but they all had special motors, trans, suspensions that where only initially available on the Shelby's...when that package went mainstream, the Shelby's came out with an different package that was Shelby only, until that partnership dissolved ( the first v8 Daks where Shelby's as well)

 

[Jack Meoff]

Alright I'll throw my hat in the ring.

Eastyorker who's a member here and a very close friend has let me drive his 69 Road Runner and I can assure you that a Volare Road Runner is not the same.....not even close.

There's an irreplaceable feeling of launching the Titanic.
A behemoth B body literally launching. You can feel the amount of torque this thing is putting to the wheels. It's incredible. I only dream of driving an A12.

Names have been shared in worse places.
Charger.....the Cordoba platform Charger was NOT a muscle car. A tank with a de-tuned smogged out 400. More weight than good. Then the (was it) Mitsubishi version?

Realistically....saying the 318-2 Volare Runner was a muscle car is kind of like saying if you shaved some weight off my Fifth and changed the rear and the tranny it'd be a muscle car.

It wasn't a muscle car but it wasn't a mistake by any means.
It's an extremely cool car that actually seems to be coming into it's own. If you want it to be a muscle car it's totally doable.

Was it a muscle car out of the box?

Nope.

All the nameplates were just that by that point.

 

[ramenth]

Alright I'll throw my hat in the ring.

Eastyorker who's a member here and a very close friend has let me drive his 69 Road Runner and I can assure you that a Volare Road Runner is not the same.....not even close.

There's an irreplaceable feeling of launching the Titanic.
A behemoth B body literally launching. You can feel the amount of torque this thing is putting to the wheels. It's incredible. I only dream of driving an A12.

That's my point, Ed. I keep telling a kid at work who's into the newer stuff what the difference is between today's high horse cars and an old fashioned muscle car.

Today's cars are built for a different kind of driver. Sure, the Hellcat or GT500 out powers the cars from the muscle car area, but it's a refined power. The car is built to assist the driver in using that horsepower. Being an old Ford tech, I've had plenty of opportunities to play with cars like the GT500 and Rousch's P51's. Being in Chevy I had time to play with (yesterday's) 'Vette's, (I was at Chevy in the early '90's). None of those cars (with the exception of a P51).

I also learned how to drive on my Sport Satellite.

The comparison is night and day. The 383 under the hood of the Satellite and the raw horsepower under the hood of the Duster, without all the refinement to help you keep control of that horsepower is a raw experience. You're completely on edge. Triple digits in the Duster and you better not take your eyes off the road, keep both hands on the wheel. The car will beat you into submission if you so much as loose a bit of concentration.

The GT500? Triple digits feels like just another 55mph drive. The car has your back. "Trust me," it says.

A muscle car? Never trust it. It bites and bites hard if you trust it. You have to learn to tame it, to make it make it do what you want it to do. It's a caged beast waiting to be let out.

There's no way in hell a 318 2bbl car gives you that same feeling.

Names have been shared in worse places.
Charger.....the Cordoba platform Charger was NOT a muscle car. A tank with a de-tuned smogged out 400. More weight than good. Then the (was it) Mitsubishi version?

Thankfully, by that time, Chrysler had given up all pretense that the Charger was a muscle car.

Realistically....saying the 318-2 Volare Runner was a muscle car is kind of like saying if you shaved some weight off my Fifth and changed the rear and the tranny it'd be a muscle car.

Thank you!

It wasn't a muscle car but it wasn't a mistake by any means.

That's where I'll part with the guy in the video. It wasn't a muscle car. Was it a "real" Road Runner? Yes, because Chrysler said it was. Just like the guys who bitch about the Charger nameplate being on a four door. "It's not a 'real' Charger!" It is, because Chrysler said it is.

It's an extremely cool car that actually seems to be coming into it's own.

Yes, it is.

If you want it to be a muscle car it's totally doable.

The it becomes a hot rod.

Was it a muscle car out of the box?

Nope.

All the nameplates were just that by that point.

:icon_thumleft:

 

[Blackbirdsrt78]

This thread is cracking me up! What have I started. LMAO :icon_viking:

 

[Jack Meoff]

This thread is cracking me up! What have I started. LMAO :icon_viking:

See what you've done?.....lol.

 

[Greg55_99]

I've said this before, but I'll repeat it. In 1976-77 everybody wanted a "Smokey and the Bandit" Trans Am. They could be had with a 400 (or 403) V8. The Volare Road Runner's could only be had with a 318 2 barrel or a 360 4 barrel (automatic only). Mopar's were on a downhill slide and nobody was paying money for tape striped Volare's, except me. When I bought my car back then I KNEW it was just a blank canvas to build what I knew Mopar could no longer build. Parts and drive trains from earlier cars were literally a drop in and since I lived in Ohio, EPA smog checks were not an issue. At that time, as long as the dealer SOLD the car with all of the smog stuff in place, what the owner did after that was his business. The very first things I did after buying my RR was to pull off the catalytic converter and fit what used to be called a "test pipe" to replace it. Then I punched out the gas filler neck to take a leaded gas nozel. At 29,000 miles a 360 with a 4 speed replaced the 318 then later a 413 big block. My point is a Volare off the lot in those days, even with a 360, was not a proper muscle car, but it had good bones!

Greg

 

[Aspen500]

Wow, you're actually admitting that the car is a pig? And you actually own one? You mean to tell me that you actually know from actually having experience with it?

My God, the world is going to implode.

Yes my car is heavy, yes I admit it's heavy. What the f*** are you talking about? No need to be such a dick. I see why you're so popular on the a-body site.

 

[slant6billy]

I just want an F body coupe to be number one either on the strip or street. With a aluminum 426 Hemi with a clutchflite or a Hellcat drivetrain. I want fear in eyes of every chevelle owner as well camaro, Mustang, import.

And yes, I did say CLUTCHFLITE in an F body coupe


Maverick Performance in York PA makes the old B&M kit, but better

 

[ramenth]

Yes my car is heavy, yes I admit it's heavy. What the f*** are you talking about? No need to be such a dick. I see why you're so popular on the a-body site.

I was being facetious and poking a little fun.

If you'd read my previous posts in this thread you'd see one of the points I was hammering on was comparing internet "knowledge" to folks with hands on experience. You obviously have hands on experience with some of the points I was making, about a big block upsetting the balance of the car as compared to a small block causing it to plow a bit or the weight of the car itself. For some reason, your words were ignored in favor of what the internet has to say.

Trust me, if I was being a dick, you'd know it.

 

[efriedrich]

I have had a 383-S 69 barracuda for over thirty years, its basically stock and weighs 3400 lbs, its nose heavy and light in the ass, it handles like a pig it has no balance. Its a 4spd with manual steering and brakes, this is a serious car not to be toyed with because it can and will get crossed up quickly, I have loved driving this nasty bitch for most of my adult life. That being said I don't believe muscle cars weren't built after 1970 I just think they were built differently like 78 runners and the new challys which I consider muscle cars.

 

[Veteran Cosmic Rocker]

Amusing thread. So let me add a few ... facts. I was driving & fixing these cars before/when they were new, I lived the muscle-car era. Fact: the last road runner model was 1975, the volare car was an option trim package. I raced b body's that whooped ass, the f body cars were rust-bucket slugs. Now, despite these FACTS, I like the f-body cars, and if anyone does, by all means, enjoy. Just don't make them what they're not. Honestly, they were bad cars that were a big contributor to the almost demise of Chrysler. Considering the badging a mistake is just an opinion. The same could be said of z-28, trans am, mustang, and corvettes of the late 70's... ALL were dogs compared to the earlier models !

 

[compubert]

My F body 78 RR does NOT have a single "volare" marking on it either. As far as what options it has I have no idea ( police and such)
I've had 3 B bodies before this. this is my 1st F body.

Is it a muscle car? Now yes. Off the lot no.
Last week I had a "discussion" with a local guy that had 8 B bodies in his yard right down the street from me. I stopped because I saw the grill of a plymouth poking out from behind a few cars and a fence.

He had NOTHING good to say about my car due to the fact that it was a F body.
Yet all his cars were in different states of non running repair and all either station wagons or 4 doors.
He even stated that he could put roadrunner decals on the plymouth station wagon he had sitting and have a better roadrunner then what I have.

The cars of old are GREAT, all of them. Nothing screams mid evil badassery like a B body Mopar though.

I agree the guy in the video is un educated and bias just like the guy I talked to last week.

I agree haters gonna hate. I bought my car because I like it and I wanted it.
I had/have the money to buy what I want. and looked at 5 cars in a month. 3 were roadrunners. I picked the one I bought because the wife and I liked it. I could have bought a 73 with the 340 and slap shift for the same price and it needed the same work.
or a 75 with less work and same price.

I agree also that the newer F bodies do have bigger advantages like breaking and such.
But they also have draw backs like body parts that are near impossible to get.
Need a B body part? order it.
Need a F body part search High and low for it.
I'm talking body parts as you all know.

Rich

Talk to F body deconstructor Jim.. he has body parts. . .

 

[Mopars1]

I weighed my car on the scale at the drag race track. At the time it had a full tank of gas, an 8 3/4" rear axle, a 340 with a 904 with T-tops and the extra metal that came with that option, air conditioning, speed control, twin outside rear view mirrors and it came in exactly at 3900 pounds. This was back in the late 1980's

 

[Jack Meoff]

I weighed my car on the scale at the drag race track. At the time it had a full tank of gas, an 8 3/4" rear axle, a 340 with a 904 with T-tops and the extra metal that came with that option, air conditioning, speed control, twin outside rear view mirrors and it came in exactly at 3900 pounds. This was back in the late 1980's

A lightweight compact.

 

[Dr Lebaron]

If they want to talk Mopar mistakes of 1978,
Dodge Challenger-winner!

 

[Jack Meoff]

If they want to talk Mopar mistakes of 1978,
Dodge Challenger-winner!
View attachment 12452

I actually remember clearly being appalled by that when it came out.

 

[Aspen500]

That was one of those cars that is fine except,,,,,,,,,,,they needed to put a different name on it. I remember the MCA jet engines from Mitsubishi in those, K-cars, Caravans, etc. One word: JUNK!