JohnRogers
Well-Known Member
Can anyone elaborate on these improvements? Are they significant enough that one would choose a 1978 over a 1976?
F-Body Coupe Rust after 1976
- Thread starter JohnRogers
- Start date
Can anyone elaborate on these improvements? Are they significant enough that one would choose a 1978 over a 1976?
Greg55_99
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2011
- Messages
- 331
- Reaction score
- 78
I don't think it makes much difference after 40 years. See if you can find a clean car and go with it.
It's amazing what you'll find in the trunk of your (my) car...
Greg
It's amazing what you'll find in the trunk of your (my) car...
Greg
volare 1977
Well-Known Member
It seems to me it is more about the design of the front frames rails. Water sits in them after they get clogged with debris. I never noticed any difference in the replacement fenders vs the originals. The cowls drains also get clogged and hold water and over time rots is out. I don`t really know if anything was ever done( design wise) to fix those issues.
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
Front frame rails are the second thing I look at.
First is looking if I should even bother to look because I know the answer and it's bad.
Metal rusts over time. It is a long established fact.
Cars that sit outside full time rusts faster than cars that sit inside a garage.
Cars close to ocean and/or areas where they use salt on roads in winter rust faster than say cars in Phoenix Arizona.
How with that said, I do not see as many rusty M-body’s as I do F-bodies (even the ’77-79 M-bodies). I suspect the sheet metal department at the assembly plants must be completely different (more corrosion protection plating, much better paint prep, or something) on F vs. M-body's.
Even the paint is a lot higher quality on any M-body (for the most part).
There are some areas on my ’77 wagon that really surprises me. This is the driver’s side rear door hinges. I thought I took a picture of both hinges, this afternoon, but it appears my shot was not centered.
Both hinges – the paint did not stick to them, due to items not being prepped before painting. I would suspect the hinges still had oil on them (possibly). The paint looks good on the B-pillar and hinge bolts, but not the hinges themselves.
I’m also having rust issues with the original fenders in the usual area – so I need to find some recall fenders, somewhere . . .
Now on my ’86 Fifth Ave, I suspect the car has sat outside most of its life.
I don’t think there is a single area of rust through anywhere on the car.
BudW
Cars that sit outside full time rusts faster than cars that sit inside a garage.
Cars close to ocean and/or areas where they use salt on roads in winter rust faster than say cars in Phoenix Arizona.
How with that said, I do not see as many rusty M-body’s as I do F-bodies (even the ’77-79 M-bodies). I suspect the sheet metal department at the assembly plants must be completely different (more corrosion protection plating, much better paint prep, or something) on F vs. M-body's.
Even the paint is a lot higher quality on any M-body (for the most part).
There are some areas on my ’77 wagon that really surprises me. This is the driver’s side rear door hinges. I thought I took a picture of both hinges, this afternoon, but it appears my shot was not centered.
Both hinges – the paint did not stick to them, due to items not being prepped before painting. I would suspect the hinges still had oil on them (possibly). The paint looks good on the B-pillar and hinge bolts, but not the hinges themselves.
I’m also having rust issues with the original fenders in the usual area – so I need to find some recall fenders, somewhere . . .
Now on my ’86 Fifth Ave, I suspect the car has sat outside most of its life.
I don’t think there is a single area of rust through anywhere on the car.
BudW
I was thinking of a good white vinegar wash and then coat problem areas with RustBullet. I wish I could find some "RedLead" paint from a shipyard or refinery. My dad coated an old boat trailer with that stuff back in the 70's. It was a float off trailer. He would drive it right into the ocean to float his Glen L Dorado off. I just saw it last month and it is defying rust like a champ. Salt water ain't got noting on it. Guy just replaced the wheel bearings for the first time in 15 years (After the wobble got too bad).
XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
You can still get the heavily leaded paints shipped in from South American countries, basic marine salt water paint they use there.
Volare77.... I never noticed any difference in the replacement fenders vs the originals.
If you look at the original 76 /77 fenders they have a smooth inner lip all the way around the wheel well, the vast majority of recall fenders have the, three I think, small bumps with holes where the edge of the newer style full coverage plastic wheel well attached. The early F-s just used a small insert at the rear of the fender in front of the door hinges. And of course all use the thick tar paper push tab flap on the inside if the front inner lip which would be on the backside if where the fender brightwork trim goes, but many who replace the fenders fail to realize there should be anything there or that the fenders are set up for the full inner liners.
This makes it hard to restore a 76 properly because the 76 drivers fender is unique to that year only.
As Bud W mentioned and posted, everything rusts. The pic of his hinge is a good example imo of a different grade metal and all got poor prep and poor paint because what was the life expectancy, service life of cars in the mid 70-s. Look at the meager warranty many cars got.
But back to the fenders, the 76/77 being foolishly open everything got sprayed every time it was wet, clean water salt water, mud. I recall driving down wet gravel roads and thinking I was in a metal can being pelted by rocks.
Luckly I live in a semi arid desert with under 10% humidity most of the time, cars kept indoors dont sun rot or rust. Which is another big factor like in Bud W-s pic of the hinge, that dont happen here. Ive had block and cranks on wooden shelves for over 15 years and all they do is get dusty but never rust.
Again luckly for me, along with never putting over 50 miles a year on any one of my older mopars they never rust and the frames probably look better then they did new off the lot, but thats just a geographical benefit, no hidden methods or pixie dust.
You can see in the pic here the pathetic early F inner liner vs the 78 up and the ones used, or what should of been used with the recall fenders.
Some also got the tiny lower plastic shield and if you look in the 77 parts book 12-100 12-2 12-3 they monkey around even on the splash shields on a couple dates before and after 9/76.
I love them, but what marble heads designed our cars?
Most think they were used later m-s and such but look at the older 368 part number prefix, go look at a org. 78 F or go look at your recall fenders.
NOS 1982-1989 Gran Fury Fifth Avenue Diplomat RF Fender Splash Shield 3868968 dp | eBay
Volare77.... I never noticed any difference in the replacement fenders vs the originals.
If you look at the original 76 /77 fenders they have a smooth inner lip all the way around the wheel well, the vast majority of recall fenders have the, three I think, small bumps with holes where the edge of the newer style full coverage plastic wheel well attached. The early F-s just used a small insert at the rear of the fender in front of the door hinges. And of course all use the thick tar paper push tab flap on the inside if the front inner lip which would be on the backside if where the fender brightwork trim goes, but many who replace the fenders fail to realize there should be anything there or that the fenders are set up for the full inner liners.
This makes it hard to restore a 76 properly because the 76 drivers fender is unique to that year only.
As Bud W mentioned and posted, everything rusts. The pic of his hinge is a good example imo of a different grade metal and all got poor prep and poor paint because what was the life expectancy, service life of cars in the mid 70-s. Look at the meager warranty many cars got.
But back to the fenders, the 76/77 being foolishly open everything got sprayed every time it was wet, clean water salt water, mud. I recall driving down wet gravel roads and thinking I was in a metal can being pelted by rocks.
Luckly I live in a semi arid desert with under 10% humidity most of the time, cars kept indoors dont sun rot or rust. Which is another big factor like in Bud W-s pic of the hinge, that dont happen here. Ive had block and cranks on wooden shelves for over 15 years and all they do is get dusty but never rust.
Again luckly for me, along with never putting over 50 miles a year on any one of my older mopars they never rust and the frames probably look better then they did new off the lot, but thats just a geographical benefit, no hidden methods or pixie dust.
You can see in the pic here the pathetic early F inner liner vs the 78 up and the ones used, or what should of been used with the recall fenders.
Some also got the tiny lower plastic shield and if you look in the 77 parts book 12-100 12-2 12-3 they monkey around even on the splash shields on a couple dates before and after 9/76.
I love them, but what marble heads designed our cars?
Most think they were used later m-s and such but look at the older 368 part number prefix, go look at a org. 78 F or go look at your recall fenders.
NOS 1982-1989 Gran Fury Fifth Avenue Diplomat RF Fender Splash Shield 3868968 dp | eBay
Last edited:
XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
Here is the same spot on the drivers front fender, both 76 runners, one with org. fender showing only the hole for wheel molding if it was tagged for it and one with the recall /78 79 fender with the tab I posted about for the plastic liner. I dont drive this car so I never put the liners back in and to me they are just plain ugly like an afterthought.
But thats your visual difference in the recall vs non recall fenders, but im sure they might of even used left over 76-77 fenders and I still see the hard to find drivers 76 fender on ebay from time to time.
But thats your visual difference in the recall vs non recall fenders, but im sure they might of even used left over 76-77 fenders and I still see the hard to find drivers 76 fender on ebay from time to time.
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
If I remember correctly, the fender rust issue was solved by using the full splash shield to keep the salt, dirt and water out of the rust prone areas like the pocket at the lower rear and where the metal is doubled near the hood hinge area, where it got trapped and has a field day with rot.
Depending on where you live, if a car is driven year round, it will rust no matter what you do. I was meticulous with my '96 Dakota, always washing the underside and every nook and cranny at least once a week in the winter, and it helped BUT, I spent half of the past summer repairing rust and still have to do the box sides. Inner and outer rockers, cab corners, parts of the floor, front fenders, cab mounts, bottoms of the doors.................Road salt is an evil thing.
Depending on where you live, if a car is driven year round, it will rust no matter what you do. I was meticulous with my '96 Dakota, always washing the underside and every nook and cranny at least once a week in the winter, and it helped BUT, I spent half of the past summer repairing rust and still have to do the box sides. Inner and outer rockers, cab corners, parts of the floor, front fenders, cab mounts, bottoms of the doors.................Road salt is an evil thing.
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
I always almost laugh when "they" say the Aspen/Volare were rust prone. They weren't any worse than other cars of the era. In high school (class of '82) I remember mid '70's Camaros, Mustangs, Cutlass, etc with the 1/4's flapping in the breeze, bottoms of the doors not attached to the inner panel, carpet hanging down from the gaping holes in the floors..................I guess we could put M50-15 tires on and save the money on air shocks because the wheel openings were missing enough sheet metal that they didn't rub so there is that advantage. Rust is an equal opportunity employer.
old yellow 78
Well-Known Member
I agree for the most part, but I wouldn't limit the severity of the rust issue to the era of the '70's. The fender rust on the F's was problimatic and expensive both in $$ and negative publicity for Chrysler who had to replace them, but was not a safety issue. The more significant rust issue for the early (and later) F's was the tendency for the frame rails to rot out. This was/is more of a safety issue and also has caused the premature scrapping of many fine F's.
This, again, was due to poor design, but it was not limited to just the F's.
or even to Mopar as Aspen 500 points out.
For example, I had a '99 Windstar van that I bought almost new with only 4000 miles on it. It was fine until it approached 100k, then the rust broke out. Rocker panels, door bottoms, and several recalls from Ford about rear axles breaking in half and the front engine frame structure breaking away, all due to rust. This was a terrible safety problem and caused many accidents.
That POS got "clunkerized" before anybody got hurt, and I don't miss it at all.
My 2000 Ford F150 is similarly plagued with rust at only just over 120K miles. Door bottoms, rockers, everything underneath, coated with rust, even had to spend almost $1000 getting a new radiator support welded in because the original had holes the size of my fist rusted through it! Why? It's a vertical piece of metal with maximum air circulation and nothing to hold any type of water or dirt! Just plain poor metal and finish is my guess. The back window leaks like a sieve and the plastic storage bins are always filled with water. I don't even want to know what the floor pans look like. I will keep patching it together until it disintegrates then sweep it up and throw it away. And yet my current 2010 Mazda 3 daily driver that I bought new, has over 100K on it, and not a speck of rust, nor any mechanical problem - ever! Hummm.
Anyway, that is why I thought it was worth it to go as far as the desert of Colorado to buy OY. No rust to speak of except for the same type of surface rust on the door hinges that Bud W. shows on his pic of his beautiful blue wagon above. Particularly 40+ years later, the F's don't stand out more than any other car regarding rust IMO.
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
I've replaced more than one rear axle on Windstar/Freestar at work when they came in on the flat bed with about 10* negative camber in the rear, and those had the recall reenforcements installed. Rotted right in half. We replace front subframe (cradles) on Taurus's frequently. There's an outfit here that brings them in by the truck load from down south. Focus LOVES to have the front control arms literally rust in two and hopefully you aren't going very fast when they let go. Mentioned this on "the other site" I think, we see vehicles (usually pickups) with holes in the rockers, cab corners, above the rear wheels as new as 2014. Replaced a couple brake lines on a 2012 Malibu last week,,,,,,,,rusted through and leaking. For all the rust prevention measures they take, or don't take, seems vehicles rust out quicker than they have in 20 years. The joys of living in Wisconsin (or MN, MI, IL.................) A couple weeks ago, a 2011 F-150, went to lift it on the hoist, heard a crunching sound. Frame was collapsing where the hoist pad was, Sad. We've had people scrap not very old vehicles because of rust. One that comes to mind is a 2010 Toyota Tundra with under 50,000 miles. Frame so rotted the box and cab were jammed together,,,,,,,,,,and that was a couple years ago already. My favorite is when iron cylinder blocks, heads or exhaust manifolds rust through, not to mention steel oil pans. Even had a mid 2000's Silverado in last week with a leak. Was from the transfer case. It had a hole corroded through the aluminum. I guess it's all called, "job security".
Last edited:
old yellow 78
Well-Known Member
AH! I had forgotten that one about my F150, although it wasn't the oil pan that rusted through, it was the rear cover of the differential! Cripe! One side of it is even constantly bathed in gear oil, and it STILL rusted through and began to leak! And people have the audacity to keep bringing up rust on the F's! Bah!
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
Exactly my point! lol I remember quite a few years ago when I still was at the Ford dealer. An Expedition came in with "fluid leak under rear of vehicle". The diff cover had a hole rusted through it. So what you ask? It had 4,000 miles and was only 6 months old, hadn't seen a winter yet. Because it was basically new yet, I had to call for authorization first. Try convincing Ford Warranty Dept that the cover on a 6 month old vehicle was rusted through. I had to send a photo of it to prove it was on that vehicle and we weren't trying to warranty a cover on a 10 year old truck. They thought it was damaged by backing up into an obstacle. I had a hell of a time making them understand it was not damaged, it was RUSTED THROUGH. Frustrating.
One other I remember I went round and round with Ford Warranty was a local squad car. It was a 2 year old Crown Vic that was mostly a back up car so was still under the 3/36 bumper to bumper warranty. Came in with an exhaust leak. Left manifold was rotted completely through. Same thing, take a photo and send it to them and convince them it indeed was on the car I said it was on.. Just a couple of MANY reasons that after 27 years as a dealer tech, I haven't worked at a car dealer since 2012 and NEVER WILL AGAIN, EVER.
So, it doesn't have to be 20 years old, or an F-body back in the '70's (I include both Chrysler f-body AND GM F-body in that) to have rust issues.
One other I remember I went round and round with Ford Warranty was a local squad car. It was a 2 year old Crown Vic that was mostly a back up car so was still under the 3/36 bumper to bumper warranty. Came in with an exhaust leak. Left manifold was rotted completely through. Same thing, take a photo and send it to them and convince them it indeed was on the car I said it was on.. Just a couple of MANY reasons that after 27 years as a dealer tech, I haven't worked at a car dealer since 2012 and NEVER WILL AGAIN, EVER.
So, it doesn't have to be 20 years old, or an F-body back in the '70's (I include both Chrysler f-body AND GM F-body in that) to have rust issues.
A great write up, XfbodyX!
I haven’t really gotten into the body aspect of these cars that much, and I assumed the ’76-79 fenders were the same.
’77 was when Chrysler was out of money – so skimping here and there wasn’t uncommon.
BudW
I haven’t really gotten into the body aspect of these cars that much, and I assumed the ’76-79 fenders were the same.
’77 was when Chrysler was out of money – so skimping here and there wasn’t uncommon.
BudW
