Fuel Injection or Carburetion ?

BudW

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There is a friend who is willing to purchase the old parts. It would be some loss but not a total loss.

I have one new fuel tank ready to modify but still waiting on the money tree to weld a nice crop so I can get more parts . . .

On a different note, the 318’s on both cars are leaking oil as well as the freeze plugs (which I dislike doing in car). If I decide to take out an engine to reseal (before my big blocks are built), I do have one small block kickdown linkage set and a pair of intakes I could toss on. I’m just trying to avoid that and just replace the 318’s to begin with. Now mumbling incoherently about avoiding extra work . . .
I refuse to go into debt so it’s a juggling act.
BudW
 

BudW

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Bud, how would your big blocks setup look likes on parts?
I have two new (NOS) Chrysler 400 short blocks (with cast cranks). One with cast date of 3-13-78 and other with a cast date of 3-14-78.
20141121_220233.jpg

400 2 Block 4.jpg

I also have a two pair (4) of 440 Source Stealth cylinder heads (aluminum), Aluminum water pumps/housings. A pair of 440 Source stroker crank kits. Two sets of Diamond moly/ceramic coated pistons for a stock bore 400 (I just can’t face boring out brand new blocks).
20171029_123233r.jpg

20171029_123213r.jpg

The blocks will need to be taken and cleaned before I can work on them (still coated in cosmoline) and haven’t decided on camshafts yet. Still in parts gathering mode.
BudW
 

M_Body_Coupe

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So before anyone takes me too seriously, let me just say this is meant as a light-hearted comment: where have all the boys who knew how to tune carbs gone?...and how come they were all replaced with EFI girls!!!

Ohhh...ahh....he didn't just write what I think he did...!!!????

LOL, alright alright...no offence meant, I'm an IT guy by profession so yeah I totally dig the digital thing...but I have to admit that part of what I had always looked upon as a bit of a 'merit badge' in this hobby was the ability to tune, that being: get your ignition curves working right and feed da beast plenty of fuel!!! (yeah, the old fashioned way, I mean...CARBURETOR)

Where things do irk me a bit (soap box ON) is when the younger crowd thinks that EFI is the 'ultimate/best/cat's meow', because it is not. That technology has it's limitations, just like all the other tech we've had always had. There are huge benefits to going down that route and there is no denying that, if you spend any time tuning a carb you will almost immediately understand why EFI is so damned sexy!!! (soap box OFF)

Now, for this poor ol' guy it's carburetor or bust! Seriously, Carter TQ 9800 series (aftermarket with the attached electric choke). I tune by adjusting the air-bleeds accordingly giving me a nice transition from idle=>part throttle=>WOT. I suppose I best admit that I am perhaps addicted to that Carter TQ sound of the secondaries fully openning and sucking the air straight ouf of your lungs. After all, is there a better way to "go out in style"??? "NO", says that big shit-face grin covering my face from ear to ear!!!
 

M_Body_Coupe

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...A pair of 440 Source stroker crank kits. Two sets of Diamond moly/ceramic coated pistons for a stock bore 400...
I picked up a set of Mahle pistons (#930271030, 408" stroker setup), which for now are sitting in the box.

As I have been gearing up for the stroker W2 build I often pondered the coatings approach. Haven't gone anywhere with it because just everyone around my area here thinks that's a waste of money. I belive that is not the case, but I do not have any empirical evidence to suggest I could turn that investment into added value.

In other words: would coating pistons and the head chambers allow me to run a slightly higher static compression without the danger of developing hot-spots and therefore detonation?

Or perhaps the benefits are mostly from capturing the heat in the chamber so that more of it can be converted into kinetic energy, thus more push to the crank? And if so, what does that actually translate to as far as power increase %?

In your case, what did that coating cost you?
 

Duke5A

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So before anyone takes me too seriously, let me just say this is meant as a light-hearted comment: where have all the boys who knew how to tune carbs gone?...and how come they were all replaced with EFI girls!!!

Ohhh...ahh....he didn't just write what I think he did...!!!????

LOL, alright alright...no offence meant, I'm an IT guy by profession so yeah I totally dig the digital thing...but I have to admit that part of what I had always looked upon as a bit of a 'merit badge' in this hobby was the ability to tune, that being: get your ignition curves working right and feed da beast plenty of fuel!!! (yeah, the old fashioned way, I mean...CARBURETOR)

Where things do irk me a bit (soap box ON) is when the younger crowd thinks that EFI is the 'ultimate/best/cat's meow', because it is not. That technology has it's limitations, just like all the other tech we've had always had. There are huge benefits to going down that route and there is no denying that, if you spend any time tuning a carb you will almost immediately understand why EFI is so damned sexy!!! (soap box OFF)

Now, for this poor ol' guy it's carburetor or bust! Seriously, Carter TQ 9800 series (aftermarket with the attached electric choke). I tune by adjusting the air-bleeds accordingly giving me a nice transition from idle=>part throttle=>WOT. I suppose I best admit that I am perhaps addicted to that Carter TQ sound of the secondaries fully openning and sucking the air straight ouf of your lungs. After all, is there a better way to "go out in style"??? "NO", says that big shit-face grin covering my face from ear to ear!!!

I'm one of those EFI weenies, so I just couldn't let this go unchallenged. :p I gave up on carbs just as soon as I evolved enough to to start walking upright and stop dragging my knuckles across the ground. :eek::D

<SOAP BOX>

EFI doesn't need to be easy. You can let computers do everything or you can go balls deep and set it all yourself. I was making timing adjustments to the car in a Home Depot parking lot last summer. I'm not talking about base timing, but the actual timing curve.

Do this with a mechanical distributor:

sparkmap4.png


Same goes for the fuel map. Endless adjustability in real time. No cracking the bowls to change jets. No tearing apart the dizzy to set it up in a machine to set the curve.

EFI just isn't easier, it's cleaner. No more washed out rings every 100k. Longer oil change intervals. No more tears from the exhaust. I could go on....

How long have you been monkeying with that TQ now? Running one can best be described as a love-hate relationship, or like owning a cat.
</SOAP BOX>

In all honesty, you would have an absolute ball with this stuff. Even the base model kits anymore afford you the ability to tune EVERYTHING. I'm running the Holley Sniper EFI 600. You can either let you the computer figure out a good enough tune or you make an infinite amount of change right on the fly. I've got multiple tuning profiles saved on the handheld depending on what I'm doing. This really is great stuff.

Come to the future, we have cookies. :D
 

Duke5A

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I picked up a set of Mahle pistons (#930271030, 408" stroker setup), which for now are sitting in the box.

As I have been gearing up for the stroker W2 build I often pondered the coatings approach. Haven't gone anywhere with it because just everyone around my area here thinks that's a waste of money. I belive that is not the case, but I do not have any empirical evidence to suggest I could turn that investment into added value.

In other words: would coating pistons and the head chambers allow me to run a slightly higher static compression without the danger of developing hot-spots and therefore detonation?

Or perhaps the benefits are mostly from capturing the heat in the chamber so that more of it can be converted into kinetic energy, thus more push to the crank? And if so, what does that actually translate to as far as power increase %?

In your case, what did that coating cost you?

I ran a set of coated Speed Pro pistons and never had issues, but I've seen photos of where the coating peels off and plugs up the oil pickup. That being said, stroker pistons are like hockey pucks and don't have much of a skirt. Don't think a coating would do much with those. Can't speak to the cylinder heads, but I don't see cylinder head manufactures doing it from the factory.
 

Camtron

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After spending yesterday afternoon freezing in the garage so I could fatten up my carb for the below freezing temps ahead, I’m ready for the future, lol. I finally ordered a wide band o2 sensor kit, I’m slowly going to start putting the pieces together for efi and have it ready whenever I can do an engine swap. Medical bills unfortunately have priority now so, baby steps lol.
 

M_Body_Coupe

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I'm one of those EFI weenies, so I just couldn't let this go unchallenged. :p I gave up on carbs just as soon as I evolved enough to to start walking upright and stop dragging my knuckles across the ground. :eek::D

Ahhh...love it! Mark and I have had this conversation before. Just as a FYI for everyone else on the forum, we have known each other for a number of years now...so this is all good! I love busting him over this...and indeed, he did not dissapoint!
...EFI doesn't need to be easy. You can let computers do everything or you can go balls deep and set it all yourself. I was making timing adjustments to the car in a Home Depot parking lot last summer. I'm not talking about base timing, but the actual timing curve...

You are absolutely right about that. This in fact is the aspect that would (probably will...eventually) convince me to go down the non-carbed route.
...How long have you been monkeying with that TQ now? Running one can best be described as a love-hate relationship, or like owning a cat...

Ah, but it is so much more for me than that. On some level, maybe it is that primal / Neanderthal thing, knowing how to squeeze maximum BTU out of a unit of fuel is what keeps me focused on the carburetor. After all, here is a most basic piece of equipment that relies on nothing more but pure physics: pressure differences, fuel going from a liquid state to a finely atomozied mist in an instant, etc....c'mon, how could that NOT 'turn your crank'???

You know, they say carbs are the setups that almost always make more power on the dyno for this very reason: continuous flow of fuel, as opposed to the on/off cycle the EFI stuff relies on.
 

88_AHB

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So I was curious,for those running EFI are you guys running a in-tank fuel pump or external pump? I know a in-tank is quieter,(runs cooler maybe)? but, is there any other advantages besides this and not having to mount a external pump,different pickup etc.?
 

kkritsilas

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In tank runs cooler, and is quieter, as you said. It is also a gigantic pain in the ass if it fails (and I have experienced that first hand on a friends FAST unit). And being able to hear the fuel pump working is not always a bad thing.
 

Duke5A

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So I was curious,for those running EFI are you guys running a in-tank fuel pump or external pump? I know a in-tank is quieter,(runs cooler maybe)? but, is there any other advantages besides this and not having to mount a external pump,different pickup etc.?

Mine is external and it is what was provided in the master kit with my Holley Sniper. After the initial prime, you never hear it. That being said I will be moving to an in-tank setup next year. Unless you setup baffles in the tank you're going to run into times where the pickup becomes uncovered and the system sucks air. This happened to me at the track with a 1/4 tank of fuel. Anything under a 1/4 for me and this happens in normal street driving. I even modified the pickup to 3/8" tube and extended it. If I have to go into the tank to make baffles, then the pump is going in as well. It's a cleaner installation and there is really no good place to mount an external as it has to be below the fuel level.

That being said though, here is how mine is mounted now:

20180513_161947.jpg


20180512_150652.jpg
20180512_173910.jpg
20180511_162540.jpg


With an 8.75" there actually is enough clearance between the mounting plate and the differential. Not so much my D60 now.

The plate is aluminum flat stock bent over using a break and attached to the bolts coming off of the straps that held the old splash shield. Not really pleased with this setup either. Another reason to go in-tank.

The right angle high pressure fittings in the pickup do not clear the trunk floor either. I had to space the tank down making shims out of thick rubber. New in-tank setup will have a depression built in to accommodate the plumbing.
 

BudW

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In your case, what did that coating cost you?
I don’t remember what they cost me - but they weren’t cheap.
I purchased two sets (one for each NOS block) and they sent me three extra pistons. They said it is not uncommon for one or two not to get machined correctly so they cast/machined spares. In this case, all were fine, so they sent me the extras. If I recall correctly (no guaranty of this) it cost me $1,350 (US) for two sets of moly coated (sides) and ceramic coated (tops) with rings, in October 2015, from Diamond Pistons Home | Diamond Racing Pistons .

Unrelated, the 440 Source stroker crank kits came with pistons and cost wasn’t much me less to get them, or not. The 440 Source piston sets are $600 (US) – and they require a person to bore out the blocks to fit. I see no reason to bore out a perfectly good brand-new block – especially if I plan on driving them for a long time into the future.
Pistons for 4.25" Stroke (512CI)-440 Source

Going by todays prices at 440 Source, the crankshaft was $750, Platinum connecting rod set with upgraded bolts $600, Rod bearing set $140, chamfered main bearing set $175 (total of $2265.00 with pistons/rings). I “think” each crank kit cost me $2000 each, but that was earlier in the year in 2015 (can’t remember when exactly).


As to which fuel pump, I researched this a few years ago and this system seamed like the best for me The Phantom – Aeromotive, Inc .
I am planning on going with new fuel tanks so take new tanks and get a bracket welded in like this:
20160924_095536.jpg

Now – I might be a bit out of date on what’s new.
BudW
 

SixBanger

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Bud, looking foward to see these engines comes together and alive. But target specs for both engines same? For horsepower hitters.
 

BudW

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All out horsepower is not my goal. I am striving for low end torque and drivability. Most likely, I want the engine to choke out at 5 to 5250 RPM (I don’t like high RPM’s). The engines should be able to run pump gas with the ceramic pistons and aluminum heads with 9.5 to 1 compression. The engines will be identical when built (building both at same time) except one will use an A727/A518 (leaning more towards the 4-speed, at this time) for the Fifth Ave and 5 or 6-speed manual for the wagon.

My thoughts are I want the car nice enough that my wife could drive it (if wanted).
Also, without tilt steering or power seats – it is, um, impossible for her to get into the driver’s seat in the wagon (trying to say as little as I can without getting, um, injured). She doesn’t like manuals so, little risk of her driving it anyway.

One of my goals is once completed; a person will have to do a double take or even a triple take to think the Fifth Ave is anything more than a 318 with Lean Burn when the hood is open (to appear as if the factory made a Lean Burn M-body big block).

I will take lots of pictures and forum posts when I get there.

On eBay last night and I found many 6-speed Magnum transmissions (from Charger/Challengers) so availability is much improved over what it was a couple of years ago.
BudW
 

Master M

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Well I like a good running carburetor (or 2) on a V-8. Fuel injection is nice if someone else works on it or pays for it. You all may have seen this video of a mild mannered.... 1970 Hemi Cuda and driver blasting these new muscle cars in bracket racing. But if you haven't here it is. "Gimme back my carburetor(s)"
 

M_Body_Coupe

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Master M:

Well I like a good running carburetor (or 2) on a V-8. Fuel injection is nice if someone else works on it or pays for it. You all may have seen this video of a mild mannered....

Wow, that's some awesome stuff there! Thank you for sharing sir.

So...I've gotta ask, what was the payout for the two wins?
 

Master M

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The driver is just as skilled as the car is capable. What a team, running a Hemi 'Cuda with 2 carburetors on pump gas and no additional power adders. Hell Cat, Demon, Procharged Mustang, Cadillac CTS, and even a cool old Bel Air fell victim to this skilled team. I would like to know the payout also.
When the guys at work brag about the new muscle I pull up this video and watch their faces sink as the old Mopar and driver takes the win in both classes. The 10.0 class he said he starts out in second gear. He'll need a brake job soon trying to slow this beast down.
 
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