M body- is it a handling nightmare

[kkritsilas]

Bruce:

You need to make some measurements as per the Allpar article on ride height. See if the ride height can be set properly as a start. As the Allpar article says, you set the ride height first, then you adjust for camber, caster, and toe. Quoting from the same article:

"Ride height is absolutely critical to a Mopar’s ability to handle high speeds, as well as the equally important ability to stop in a straight line. Our fleet records indicated that the sagging occurred in direct proportion to the use (or abuse) of the unit. Those used in urban settings, jumping medians, smacking curbs, and running over potholes, sagged quickly. Units posted to the country, where there were wide open roads, few curbs, and no medians, tended to stay aligned for several oil changes. " (Emphasis is mine, it is not in the original article).

From the description alone, it would appear that an improper ride height could display the same issues that you are haing a problem with (ie. high speed handling). The article also describes what to do about it. Note that your tire diameter may have an ifluence on the 12" measurement called out in the article.

If you should have a bent K frame, and you don't really know how the car was used (or abused), you can get reinforced K frames from Firm Feel. With the mileage on your car, though, I can't see this being the problem/ My blue 1982 Nirada has 216,000 Km and handles fairly fine (it feels loose, but not scary to drive, and it is loose because it needs ball joints, and bushings),

Kostas

 

[Bruceynz]

Just checked and the ride height 12.5" on both sides spec is 12 - 13inches so its spot on in the middle

 

[Bruceynz]

Anyone else been to the alignment shop and have a print of their alignment?? Maybe all our cars SAI measures like this on the alignment machine.

 

[kkritsilas]

Is it possible that the SAI measurement is wrong, for some reason? Is there a different definition of SAI in NZ? is it possible that they are measureing SAI as mm off the vertical instead of an angle? It also seems like the camber would be off, and it looks fine from the camber measurement. Is it even possible to have the camber adjustment in spec. with an SAI so far out? Not looking to insult anybody in NZ, it just seems that the measured SAI is so far off, and so extreme that even without measuring, a 22 deg. and up SAI (if correct) would have been immediately noticeable inside the engine compartment (tilting of inner fenders/shock towers, really odd angle on the shock absorbers, something like that). If nothing appears amiss, then the SAI can't be too far off the factory spec., which calls into question the measurement itself.

Kostas

 

[Bruceynz]

kkritsilas

We don't build the alignment machines here, I suspect they are USA made, SAI is SAI no different in NZ, there is something off and I will get to the bottom of it, if the shock towers were bent in they would be looking like the leaning tower of pisa at 25 degrees one would think. I have started another post to see what others peoples SAI measure at on our cars from the machines, I don't want to be looking for something that is not there. If it is 25 degrees it could be as simple as that's what transverse cars are and the 8 degrees is a carry over from the longitudinal torsion bars, I really don't know yet. No one else seems to have popped up yet with an SAI measurement so its not something many people wouldn't probably take notice of.

Thanks
Bruce

 

[Bruceynz]

This could be a clue, this is from Allpar again, they played with the pivot points on the arms, this could change the SAI.

“To keep level during braking, Chrysler engineers raised the front pivot of the upper control arm higher than the rear. This design causes the control arm to impart a lifting force to the front of the car as the weight shifts forward during braking. The lifting force resists brake dive to help keep the car nearly level when the brakes are applied.”

 

[kkritsilas]

Bruce;

You have some detective work ahead of you, it should become evident where the problem is as you look into this more deeply.

I sort of doubt that the problem is with the factory specs., logic being that it would have been noted, and Chrysler would have corrected it, seeing as how many large fleets (ie. California Highway Patrol, other police forces, and other fleet owners (taxis)) were involved with the original problem determination. Ohter points that also make me doubt that the factory specs are a misprint is that the shock towers on my cars are relatively vertical; if the SAI were actually supposed to be 22-25 deg. the lean on the shock towers would be very visible, as well as the angles on the upper control arms being very noticeable.

I asked about the wheel alignment machines assuming that there was a possibility that they were either Japanese or European. If they were, more than likely, they may have made their measurements in mm, so the SAI would have been measured in mm off the vertical, where 22-25mm would hve been right around .8-1.0 inch off the vertical, which doesn't sound too bad for an SAI.

The offset of the upper control arms mounting points should not affect SAI. SAI is defined as the angle through the upper and lower ball joints vs. true vertical. Being ball joints, the front-back angle of the arm doesn't affect SAI; upper and lower control arm lengths will, as well as the position of the control arm mounts (in or out, not front to back). I think the angle of the upper control arms only comes into play when there is weight transfer involved, which is not part of the wheel alignment process, as the car is at rest.

 

[Bruceynz]

Hmmmm this explains how its done, wish I paid more attention to high school math

http://www.google.com/patents/US5014227

 

[Bruceynz]

Ok here is the alignment for my 1980 Chrysler New Yorker, note the SAI is in spec on this one.

 

[kkritsilas]

Brucenz;

This almost makes my point. The SAI is set by the design of the front end. It is NOT an adjustment on our cars, I don't know about all other cars, but I doubt that there are many that do allow that adjustment. The SAI is defined by the length of the upper and lower control arms, and the position of the control arm mounts (in the horizontal plane, the distance between the control arm mounting points in relation to the car centerline). For most intents and purposes, it is a check on the control arms (anything bent would throw off the SAI), and the chassis (any in or out change will change the SAI as well, this change indicates a control arm mounting point change, i.e. something has moved the chassis mounting points). The >20 deg. SAI that you were shown for your Cordoba is way off, so either the upper control arms are too short, the lower control arms are too long, or the control arm mounting points are way off. I don't think that any of this is true, I think that the measurement is off, and substantially so, which is why I am asking about the measurement method and the actual measurement taken (deg. or mm.)

The reason I don't think the measurement is right is due to all of the other measurements being in spec, and nothing otherwise seems to be out (leaning shock towers, excessive camber, etc.). Is the shop that did the alignment on your New Yorker still around? Is the guy who did the alignment on your New Yorker still around? If so, you may want to take the alignment sheet from the Cordoba to them and ask him/them to look it over, and render an opinion on the SAI.

Kostas

 

[compubert]

That's an interesting article. I knew that the original K frames had an issue on the first gen F's. They would go south just with civilian driving. I believe they did make them stronger but possibly not strong enough to be constantly beaten on.

The police were pretty hard on those cars. As far as the civilian drivers they seemed to hold up after the initial fix but if they get beaten on they bend.

Maybe it's possible that your car was beat on?

I cant attest to the Washington DC driving that my car did for the first 100k but after I got it, had the snot beat out of it, going over moguls and jumps, serious off roading and washboard roads, probably another 100k of woods driving - but the bushings are gone now. My tires are leaning in at the top, but with new bushings should be ok. I may have had the replacement k frame done b4 I got it. . . ?

 

[8v-of-fury]

My grandmothers 1988 5th (secretly mine LOL) hasn't had anything but a steering box in its 300k kms (185k miles), even riding on the original shocks.. it is a miracle car i tell you lol.

I am younger (25) and consider myself a very adept driver, when I drive it.. I drive it. Does it handle like my 84 Volkswagen on sport suspension? lol no. Does it handle like a 4500lb, 300k km, 27 year old luxury car? Yeah I'd say so. The excessive amount of play, she says it has had since day 1 in 1988.

Cap'n I ripped the hell out of the old girl from Toronto up to Orillia on hwy 48/12 a couple weeks back, Cruising like a boss. Dropping to second and letting those huge secondaries of the Thermoquad take over control. My word lol.

I get to drive it for another week starting this Sunday morning when I pick it up at 5:30am! EXCITE. lol

 

[Jack Meoff]

My grandmothers 1988 5th (secretly mine LOL) hasn't had anything but a steering box in its 300k kms (185k miles), even riding on the original shocks.. it is a miracle car i tell you lol.

I am younger (25) and consider myself a very adept driver, when I drive it.. I drive it. Does it handle like my 84 Volkswagen on sport suspension? lol no. Does it handle like a 4500lb, 300k km, 27 year old luxury car? Yeah I'd say so. The excessive amount of play, she says it has had since day 1 in 1988.

Cap'n I ripped the hell out of the old girl from Toronto up to Orillia on hwy 48/12 a couple weeks back, Cruising like a boss. Dropping to second and letting those huge secondaries of the Thermoquad take over control. My word lol.

I get to drive it for another week starting this Sunday morning when I pick it up at 5:30am! EXCITE. lol

If you ask me there's nothing better on the highway than an old Chrysler.

 

[Jack Meoff]

Now that I'm into trailer season I'm spending a whole lot of time in the Fifth. On Friday it's usually four hours or more on the way up with the inane traffic getting out of the city. Usually three and a half coming back if I leave early. Plus all my weekly commuting.

So I'm getting highway, city, stop and go traffic jam.
I'm covering a lot of bases in my weekly driving.

Is this basically bone stock 28 year old Chrysler a handling nightmare? If you're used to driving super tight imports and blobmobile's you're probably going to be very out of your element. If you grew up or have had experience driving older cars then this thing is a dream to drive.

It is for me anyway. Just the thought of taking the wife's recently inherited Scamry to the trailer makes me not want to do the drive. The thought of spending eight hours travel time in a padded spiderman lunchbox......no.

After putting about 45,000 miles on this car I can fairly accurately gauge that this is a truly great car to drive.

That is if you like driving cars and not "vehicles" as they're generically referred to these days.

 

[Monkeyed]

with all the different cars I've had chrysler products are the best of everything. fords usually handle good, but fall short of chevy in power, ford interiors are large spacious and comfy but without the places to add on (amps etc) and stash things away behind panels that chevy does, fords are built sturdy, but can be a frustrating pain to work on. chevys are simple to work on, but tend to fall apart. The chryslers I've had, handle as good as any ford, have as much, if not more power than any chevy, roomy comfortable well laid out interiors with plenty of hidden spaces, and they're put together with a purpose, things don't usually come undone on their own, but if you do things in their proper order, it's a breeze to fix.

In other words.. 'The more you know, the more you Mopar'

 

[Monkeyed]

that's my 2 cents anyway lol

 

[ramenth]

with all the different cars I've had chrysler products are the best of everything. fords usually handle good, but fall short of chevy in power, ford interiors are large spacious and comfy but without the places to add on (amps etc) and stash things away behind panels that chevy does, fords are built sturdy, but can be a frustrating pain to work on. chevys are simple to work on, but tend to fall apart. The chryslers I've had, handle as good as any ford, have as much, if not more power than any chevy, roomy comfortable well laid out interiors with plenty of hidden spaces, and they're put together with a purpose, things don't usually come undone on their own, but if you do things in their proper order, it's a breeze to fix.

In other words.. 'The more you know, the more you Mopar'

Some of that may be true for the older stuff, but for the more modern stuff in the Ford vs. Chevy battle? There's a reason I went to work at the Ford dealerships and when that came to a close opened my own shop as opposed to going to work for at the Chevy garage. Sometime in the early century I think GM and Ford swapped engineers as Ford became easier and GM became a lot more complicated. Yeah, there are things which are simpler to do as comparing brands. I can have a broken flywheel out of a GM van/pick up laying on the bench in less than twenty minutes.

I'd much rather change a heater core in a Taurus than I would a Grand Am.

Gimme a plug change in 5.4 3 valve Triton over a changing plugs in a 3.4 powered GM minivan.

Twisted a wrench on pretty much everything. One of the reasons I prefer Mopar.

 

[Monkeyed]

Some of that may be true for the older stuff, but for the more modern stuff in the Ford vs. Chevy battle? There's a reason I went to work at the Ford dealerships and when that came to a close opened my own shop as opposed to going to work for at the Chevy garage. Sometime in the early century I think GM and Ford swapped engineers as Ford became easier and GM became a lot more complicated. Yeah, there are things which are simpler to do as comparing brands. I can have a broken flywheel out of a GM van/pick up laying on the bench in less than twenty minutes.

I'd much rather change a heater core in a Taurus than I would a Grand Am.

Gimme a plug change in 5.4 3 valve Triton over a changing plugs in a 3.4 powered GM minivan.

Twisted a wrench on pretty much everything. One of the reasons I prefer Mopar.

I agree, I was going to add a note that it didn't include modern jelly bean engineering, kind of forgot lol call it pre-war stuff, Y2K prior, most things built in 19xx

 

[Monkeyed]

only thing I've owned from this century that wasn't on 2 wheels is the wife's neon, that still handles as well as the focus I drive for work, and the power delivery is spread out over a wide curve, so still applies. But everything is a P.I.A. to work on anymore