1. Mn mopar

    Mn mopar Well-Known Member

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    Im just curious if any body has put a nv3500 in to a j body? Im throwing the idea around and want to pull the trigger and start getting parts to do it but im not sure on how much modification is needed to make it work. If any body has done this and has pics and maybe a list of things needed would be appreciated
     
  2. BudW

    BudW Moderator Staff Member

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    You can get anything to fit. The question is how much work will need to "get it done". I think there is a couple of good possibilities – but not tried yet to know for sure.

    My dad used to rebuild Chrysler manual transmissions – but has retired a few years ago. I need to get by his place because he has a bunch of transmissions that he wants to get rid of. I want to see will fit into our cars (and then to sell for him).

    I don’t have the answers, yet – but should soon (or one of these days). I really want to stick a 5 or a 6-speed manual into my wagon – before I insert the big block.
    BudW
     
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  3. Mn mopar

    Mn mopar Well-Known Member

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    Right i just want to swap to a 5 speed with minimal modification behind a mild built 318 and from my understanding slight tunnel work and the trans cross member mount move back a bit and a new/ custom drive shaft. If i get a nv3500 out of a dakota or a ram early 90's should bolt up to the la block but i could be wrong!
     
  4. BudW

    BudW Moderator Staff Member

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    All A, LA and Magnum (V6 or V8) transmission bolt patterns are the same (where they attach to the block).
    The G3 Hemi also uses the same bolt pattern, but starter is located on the passenger side of car.
    Big block, /6, all 4 cylinders, V10, all diesels and all (non-Magnum) V6's use a different bolt pattern.

    There is a NV1500, NV2500 and NV3500 will bolt up to engine. The question comes in to transmission mount/crossmember position, clutch operation and speedometer signal. Propeller shaft length and transmission tunnel are also factors.

    Other 5/6-speed transmissions that may fit are: and (non diesel/V10) NV4500, NV5600, NSG370 and Getrag 238. Other transmissions that may fit with correct Bell Housing would be the Tremec T56 (Viper) and Tremec TR6060 (Magnum 6-speed) used on Gen3 Hemi's (see above note about starter).

    The NV4500 and the NV5600 are massive transmissions (and heavy) so those can be ruled out.
     
  5. 80mirada

    80mirada Well-Known Member

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    most Gen3 Hemi bellhousings have both left and right starter locations.
     
  6. AJ/FormS

    AJ/FormS Well-Known Member

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    Do a search on the ratios; I think they are truck ratios with a very deep low and very wide splits.
    It's been talked about on FABO. 3.83 low or something; IDK
    from Wiki
    Close Ratio NV3500-HD Dodge Dakota Gearing:[6]
    3.49- 2.14- 1.38- 1.00- 0.73 (reverse 3.55)
    splits of .61-.64-.72-.73

    Not too bad with a Hi-Torque engine,Better than I remember,lol..... but Wiki says the HD was only good for 340 ftlbs; and the LD for 300

    I'd try it with a 5.2, or a 2bbl 5.9 with a spreadbore, but that would be pushing the limit cuz the 5.9 will push 400 ftlbs in a heartbeat; so I'd buy a spare,lols.

    The gears in the full-size , Wiki says are
    4.02- 2.32- 1.40- 1.00- 0.73- 3.55R; as you can see, 26% more TM in low, to help get the heavier full-size get moving.

    but I gotta ask why?
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
  7. Mn mopar

    Mn mopar Well-Known Member

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    I gotta ask why not lol, and the 3 speed is just to sluggish i know i can do diff gears but i do alot of highway driving and i dont want to have the rpm's that high, and i just feel like the j body should have came with a standard trans as an option at least
     
  8. AJ/FormS

    AJ/FormS Well-Known Member

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    Well, there's no arguing against feelings,lol;
    but I gotta tell you;
    A high stall convertor is like having two gears,infinitely variable between 1.8 and 1.1 then add the other 2 in the trans and another 1/2 in the loc-up, and you gotchr 4.5 gear automatic, disguised as a 3loc-up.

    Idk what you have for a powertrain, but for this exercise it won't matter.
    Let's say you currently have a
    2.45 rear gear and a
    2000 stall.
    And let's say you have the
    A999, so ratios are 2.74-1.54-1.00, and
    A loc-up TC..
    And lets work off the 5.2 Magnum dyno graph at the bottom
    The important numbers are;
    276 ftlbs @2000,
    293 @ 2800, and
    298 @3200,
    272 @ 4400

    1) Ok so how much torque are you putting down at zero mph@2000rpm?
    with the auto;276x2.74 x2.45x 1.8(TC) =3335ftlbs;(winner)
    And with the NV3500; x3.49x 2.45=2360
    no contest the automatic will blow the stick off the line; if you do not exceed 2000 rpm during engagement.

    2) But what if you launch the NP3500 at 2800rpm?
    From the graph, this 5.2 is making 293 up there,so ;
    with the NP3500; 293x3.49x2.45=2505
    the auto with 2000 stall is still 3335(winner)
    But what if you installed a 2800stall into the auto? I mean fair is fair right..
    OK, now 293x2.74x2.45x1.8=3540 (winner) ftlbs at zero mph; now yur talking!
    No matter how you slice it,When you do an apples to apples comparison, in this combo, the TC will always blow the stick away, at zero mph.
    Ok from here on let's use the 2800stall TC.

    3) Ok what happens when cruising at 30 mph when you floor it?
    With the stick,30mph is ;1915 in second, 3190 in first. So for rapid acceleration, you will have to downshift into first. So then at 3190, say you are, per the graph, at 298 ftlbs now.
    Then with the NV3500; 298 x 3.49x2.45=2548 ftlbs
    With the automatic, 30 will be 1410 in second/2500 in first, so it too will have to downshift. When it does, the Rs will climb to the 2800stall, releasing 293ftlbs, and 293 x2.74x2.45x say 1.5 in the TC =2950 (winner)
    if I over-estimated the TM at 1.5, and it's really 1.4, then 2754(still the winner).
    But say I really screwed up and the TM is really just 1.3, then 2557 (still the winner)

    4) Next, lets run the engine up to 4400 about peak power, thru two gears.
    The stick will hit second at 41 mph, and 65 will be 4230
    The auto hits 49 in first, and 65=3290
    So at first glance it looks like the stick is gonna be quicker.
    But this does not take into account the TM in the TC! At the bare minimum I would expect 30% average TM, Yes I'm guessing, in first gear, and say 15% in second average.
    So, we have already seen the Auto blow the doors off the stick to 30mph; I can't say when or if the stick will catch the auto between 30 and 60, but my opinion is;I seriously doubt that it will.
    But don't miss the point; The hi-stall auto will put more torque down, all the way from start to finish.
    6) As to cruising; the stick wins at 65=1560rpm verses 1980 with the auto.
    But here's the catch; If you cam it, the intake may not clean up until after 2000, so between 1560 and 2000 you shouldn't expect much if any better fuel economy. And once cleaned up there is at least a 400 rpm plateau where fuel economy will vary,only a little bit, at a steady speed. This is not true for the stock cam.
    7) As to the fun factor rowing gears? .... Well considering that second gear with a 2.45 rear gear, is good to 74 mph@4800, you got yourself a 3 gear car, namely; first, second and overdrive. IDK how much fun that's gonna be.
    If you shortshift outta first, the shift rpm will be;
    30=3200; going into second at 1960.
    40=4250; going into second at 2610.

    If you have been following along you mighta got the idea that the 2.45 rear gears are the real problem; and you would be mostly right. But the very wide 1-2 split of 2.14/3.49=61%, in the manual trans, is another bad deal.
    And the 2-3shift is just as bad.

    But the point is the same no matter what rear gear you put in it.

    But if you just want a manual trans for the overdrive, well, there's no arguing against what you want..........

    power-318.gif

    numbers edited to torque instead of power
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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  9. Greg55_99

    Greg55_99 Well-Known Member

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  10. BudW

    BudW Moderator Staff Member

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    The torque converter is a big deal and why most car manufactures have gone 98% automatic (not sure of exact percentage - so 98% is only a guess).
    That said, automatic transmissions are not fun for me. Give me a standard and i will always have a grin on my face.
    It might not be a practical option - but a preference. Enough so, for me to convert my wagon to a manual.

    Facts:
    For new vehicles, a manual transmission option will always cost you less $ than a automatic (if there is an option).
    For performance cars (now or yesteryear) manual transmission cars have a better resell value. The same can't be said for “non performance cars”.
    Manual transmission cars will always get better fuel mileage.
    Overall vehicle weight weight will be less vs. an automatic (except for HD pickups).
    Overall, the manual transmission will have fewer breakdowns than an automatic. When a breakdown does occur, the cost to repair is normally cheaper than many automatic transmission repairs are.

    Again, I will always prefer a manual transmission but I'm not into racing where an auto typically will net a better times and consistency.

    AJ, I really do appreciate your calculations and facts. I think you are 99 to 100% correct – but facts vs. Emotions (or preference) is a different battle. I might explain a few things (either direction) – but realize I won't change his mind - if he wants to do the shifting. All I can do is help him with good choices.

    I hadn't worked with any Jeep transmissions other than a couple clutch jobs - so can't comment much about them.

    For link above (post #9): The AR-5 (sounds like a firearm, but is not) is a 5-speed used for GM cars/small pickups made by Aisin (owned by Toyota, I think).
    The R-154 5-speed used for Toyota rear wheel drive cars and small pickups – which is made by Toyota (or Aisin) and shares some parts from the AR-5 (according to Wiki).

    No experience from either. Either, or the NV3500, might be good behind a small block – but not sure anything will hold up behind my planned stroker big block except for those designed for a high end Hemi, Viper or a Diesel.
    BudW
     
  11. Greg55_99

    Greg55_99 Well-Known Member

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    4185137-SL270125sm.jpg

    4425408-torsionbarxmember1.jpg

    This is a pic from some years ago from a gent in Germany that put an R154 behind a small block in an A body, then later a new hemi. Anyway, if you select either the AR-5 or NV3500, you'll have to do some slicing on the floor pan and crossmember to make it fit in the FMJ body.

    Greg
     
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  12. Mn mopar

    Mn mopar Well-Known Member

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  13. Mn mopar

    Mn mopar Well-Known Member

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    Greg, yeah i figured i would have to do both just a matter of how much.
     
  14. jasperjacko

    jasperjacko Well-Known Member

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    The close ratio nv 3500 are hard to come by. I like driving a stick, but also like the performance of a good gear/convertor combo. Decisions, decisions...
     
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  15. Mn mopar

    Mn mopar Well-Known Member

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    And all of this feed back is why i come to this forum, i never even though about a higher stall torque converter but at the same time i have never driven a vehicle with one!

    Now next question behind a mild built 318 what would be a good stall/ torque converter to look in to?
     
  16. AJ/FormS

    AJ/FormS Well-Known Member

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    Ok I noticed that, in post #8, I was working off the wrong side of the graph so all numbers extracted off the graph are wrong. I'll go fix that.(Edit done.)
    But the point is still the same.
    As for stall, that will depend on your rear gear, and cylinder pressure.
    The less pressure you have, or the smaller your gears are; the more stall you will need.
    And the TCs are different between 904s and loc-ups.
    So you need to know what you have before you start guessing at stalls
    ________________________
    But I can offer this; lol;
    I used to have a 1973 low-compression 318 for a winter engine in my 68 Barracuda. It was a stock long-block, with the only bolt-ons being headers and a 4bbl.I think it had a measly 130/135 psi,with new rings. Anyway;
    I put a 2800 on it, and she was a hoot with any gears I tried from 2.76 to 4.30s. 3.55s seemed a reasonable compromise.
    With the Magnum above, and from the graph, she looks to be making 293 ftlbs at 2800. The Smoggerteen won't hit that, but say it makes 85%; that's 248.
    And 248 out the crank x2.74low x3.55 in the back x1.8 in the TC;
    comes to 4342 into the tires, at zero mph, diminishing with speed..... no wonder she was hotstuff. No, she didn't smoke the N50-15s,lol, but yes she moved out pretty good.
    I grew to love that 2800.

    But if you install a 340 cam into that smoggerteen,
    the pressure will drop to about 120 or less, and the bottom end performance goes away. In that case the 2800 is like the minimum stall to consider, and at the very least a starter gear of 9.0 or better; Forget 2.76s/904/ and 2400.
    If you have a 904, then 9/1 starter is 9/2.45=3.67 rear gears which is half way between 3.55s and 3.73s, so I'd chose 3.73s.
    If you have an A999, then 9/2.74= 3.28s as the minimum, so if fuel economy is a concern,I'd choose 3.23s. If it's not, then 3.55s.
    IMO, the 2800 is a very versatile performer.
    Mine is circa 1978/80; yeah I have had it for a very long time. When I bought it, I worked at a transmission rebuild shop, and I watched the guy in the TC line, build it! It was called a "DirtJerker" lol. I had it built for a slanty/69 Barracuda that I had just installed a rebuilt hi-compression 225 into. What a lil hummer she was. A local kid , was so impressed with it, he made me an offer I couldn't refuse. And so it was that I used the value to buy a 74 DartSport 360/4-speed,lol. And before I quit that job, I bought a couple more DirtJerkers.That was about 1977/78/ maybe 79.
    Off-topic I know........
    OK I gotta go fix post #8........ and Done
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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