Radiator dimensions?

M Body General Discussion

  1. Aspen500

    Aspen500 Well-Known Member

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    Guess I'll chime in on the subject so I don't feel left out:cool: . I've got a 500" BB with A/C and the highest the (stock) gauge has ever gotten is half way on the scale. That was when it was 90 degrees, humid, in the city with the A/C cranked.
    The rad was built for me by a local shop (Glen-Ray Radiators) in the early 1990's. They used the biggest rad that came in an F/M/J body (360 with A/C probably), and added a 3 row core. With that, a clutch fan, shroud and Milodon hi flow coolant pump, I've had no problems at all. Also a high flow t-stat. Don't remember now if it's a 180 or 192 unit though. DSC00131.JPG DSC00132.JPG DSC00133.JPG
     
  2. Oldiron440

    Oldiron440 Well-Known Member

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    I also used a 360 rad but left it two row, no problems with my big block with 12.5 cr and 1400 rpm idle, infact I go In a race at my local 1/4 mile track that was hot laps. Winners got back in line and raced again. To only way to cool your car between rounds was to keep it running. I went five rounds and red lit in the final.
     
  3. BudW

    BudW Moderator Staff Member

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    I don’t remember ever seeing a York style A/C compressor on a Small Block F-body, before. /6, yes, but not on a V-8.


    My no-A/C ’77 wagon also has the small radiator (18 inch).
    20170829_130237 r.jpg
    My goal for this car is big block with A/C and a 5 or 6-speed manual transmission. Sense the firewall will need to be changed/modified, as well as the transmission tunnel, I might as well change the core support to correct pieces and get it all done to a point that I’m happy with it, and get those area’s re-painted.
    Also, I have top of fender rust – so finding a pair of recall fenders are also on my list of things to do/get painted.


    I’m not an expert of thermo-properties of metal, but I think copper is the best transmitter of heat of most metals, with aluminum just below. Brass is down a few tiers on the list. Plastic – I have no idea where it ranges. Now with that said, copper is best – but copper is too expensive and is too soft for an automotive cooling system (which is why they use brass for radiators). Next down on list is aluminum and there is no argument that aluminum is much better than brass.

    Now with that said, I have been working on Mopar vehicles for a long time. My preferred look for a radiator is the squared off shape of the brass radiator (or an aluminum radiator that can sport the same look (after being painted black). Today’s plastic/aluminum radiators do not have “the” look – but will function fine in most applications.
    318 Radiator Aluminum.jpg
    Personally, I would rather get a brass radiator fixed that go with plastic – ONLY because of its looks. Another reason is because there is no straight across fitting plastic radiator for a big block FMJ body (insert evil grin here).


    A little-known fact with Chrysler radiators. From early ‘60s until early ‘80’s (maybe earlier and/or later), there is a stamped number in the top of the radiator. This radiator ID number is much like a carburetor ID number. 95% of the numbers change every year.
    If you happen to run across an unidentified radiator, much like this eBay one https://www.ebay.com/itm/60s-70s-Dodge-Chrysler-Radiator-3781-771-18398/183250264907?epid=5020017284&hash=item2aaa91234b%3Ag%3AH8gAAOSwPHxbDwtu%3Asc%3AFedExHomeDelivery%2173127%21US%21-1&LH_ItemCondition=4 you can find out what it fits with a bit of research. Note: I just picked the first one found on eBay. It worked well for my example.
    3781771 Radiator.jpg
    In this case, the number is 3781771. According to my ’75 parts book, it fits:
    75 PM pg 7.11.JPG
    1975 C-body 400/440 w/max cooling. It will be 28 inch wide core and will either have 3-core or a 4-cores (I think 4-cores, but won't gamble more than a quarter on the bet).
    This radiator would be an excellent one for a big block conversion (if one is looking for one). Sense it is 28” wide, I will need to use a set of FMJ straps and drill new bolt holes 1” closer (for all 4 bolts) and find a way to either modify existing shroud (or go electric).

    Also, that ID number is one some people use for restorations (if you want it to be correct, that is). Our FMJ’s will not (or doubtful) be as expensive, as say a ’70 Road Runner. Some of those people go crazy trying to find the exact radiator for some of those restores – even though another radiator is exactly the same (width, thickness, core count, neck positions, etc.) but only the ID number is different.

    Personally, I don’t care about the numbers – just as long as it fits and works – but it does make a great means to identify them. The top tanks do solder on/off, so a person can change tanks easily (with the right tools).

    If you have some old radiators that needs to be ID’ed, let me know. In XfbodyX’s case, I can find out what radiator is correct for his car, if he wanted to know.
    BudW
     
  4. Aspen500

    Aspen500 Well-Known Member

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    Those restoration radiators are expensive, especially with the correct numbers and date codes stamped in. The restoration rads that Glen-Ray here in town make are top notch and priced accordingly. One reason I'm not into the number matching thing,,,,,,,I can't afford it! lol Those guys at that place are huge Mopar fanatics and there's nothing wrong with that.
    Glen-ray Radiators - All New Licensed Mopar Chrysler Dodge Plymouth Radiators
     
  5. BudW

    BudW Moderator Staff Member

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    I’ve heard nothing but great things from Glen-Ray (well – except for the price). I “think” they obtained all of the old tooling from whoever made these radiators for Chrysler, many years back, so their radiators are an exact copy.

    For B and E-body’s, the radiator part/ID number is easy to see and locate and can tell you right away if you have an original Hemi or 440 6pac car (or whatever engine it might be) – sense the radiator number is different for each engine size or option (just like the carburetor ID numbers are).

    That doesn’t mean the radiator is original to the car – but if car is being advertised as a 440-6 and it has a radiator with correct number – then you might have a winner.


    I have a few radiators in my garage with different side strap designs, including a spare ('84) FMJ pair. I can’t get to them for a couple of days, but I will dig ‘em out and take pictures to better explain more about them.


    I was always under the impression that core supports were the same on all FMJ body’s (with exception of wide vs. narrow radiator versions) – but come to think of it, I might just be assuming that (never done a side by side comparison).

    These are the part numbers of various year cars and I do see some change in part numbers (which may or might not mean anything).
    1976
    76 PM pg 7.13e.jpg

    1977
    77 PM pg 7-38b.JPG
    Note: scratched through the non-applicable car lines.

    1979
    79 PM pg 7.32e.PNG

    1982
    82 PM PG 7.99e.PNG

    The one thing I do know that cars with A/C (/6 or V8) or cars with towing package (V8) came with 26” radiators). I had not found any rhyme or reason on why other cars got 26” or the smaller versions (18”, 19”, 20” or 22”). Most, if not all /6’s that came with factory A/C, got the 26”. Because of that, I prefer not to use engine size to refer to which size radiator it came with – but rather wide (26”) vs. narrow core support brackets.
    BudW
     
  6. XfbodyX

    XfbodyX Well-Known Member

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    Now im gonna go look at some core support part numbers, gotta put wood in the stove anyways since its 29 and flippin snow.

    Its no wonder chrysler was in financial trouble in this time period.

    I just went out only to understand why id seen some techs toss a whole parts book across the shop from time to time.

    Unfortunately for me ive got one project that started life as a drag car that im thinking was crashed at one time, and although its not been on the road for nearly 30 years and has some of the best frame rails ive ever seen im semi sure its had been in a frame jig and even the core support replaced just by the way it looks and no vin on it, so now I get to replace it again because some goof cut the center out for easy in/out of the motor at some point but I think I can just replace the top of the support, I dont like the bolt in center option for this car.

    But it does seem the rad is the proper one for the car.

    I love there Part Number vs Stamped Number System... not.

    DSC00016.JPG

    DSC00010.JPG
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
  7. BudW

    BudW Moderator Staff Member

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    Great!

    I would agree with you. Same thing for casting numbers vs. part numbers.

    In your example, above, the three radiators are the exact same one – so why have three different stamp numbers on them (or for them)?
    The only good thing is knowing what year/engine/carburetor it came out of (or goes into).

    Not real useful for FMJ vehicles – but is part of a numbers matching car (indirectly) – for those numbers guys (older B & E body’s).
    These numbers changed every year – until early or mid ‘80’s – even though radiators might be identical over the years (again, just like carburetor numbers – they changed every year, even though two different year/ID # carbs might be identical).

    Personally – I think there might be more to the story as to why Chrysler did this, but I haven’t a clue.
    BudW
     
  8. LSM360

    LSM360 Well-Known Member

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  9. Aspen500

    Aspen500 Well-Known Member

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    XfbodyX Quote: some goof cut the center out for easy in/out of the motor at some point but I think I can just replace the top of the support, I dont like the bolt in center option for this car


    Who you calling a goof? lol. I did that to my car eons ago (late '80's) but did it so no structural integrity was lost. That way I could remove/install a BB with trans attached or separate and either way without messing with the hood. Hopefully,,,,,,,,,,,,the engine will not have to come out any time soon but you know the grief I had with this engine a few years ago. I've tried to block the memory.:confused:
    DSC00150.JPG DSC00151.JPG DSC00151.JPG DSC00152.JPG
     
  10. XfbodyX

    XfbodyX Well-Known Member

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    Yours looks well done smartie, mine looks like what I did to a 71 charger se parts car in 84 as I pulled the motor with the shell going to the bone yard the next day.

    I might be able to get creative and do a little bracket deal like on yous.

    Still all around better then one F ive got where the genius (my brother) we were very very young took a hole punch to the trans hump to make easy work to R@R the trans he kept blowing because my trans skills sucked and still do. One of those dont worry, the carpet covers it deals.

    Any idea why some F-s neck down at where this arrow is? and some stay wide? I dont think its a 360 engine code or ac code thing because ive a mixed bag of them.

    - Copy.jpeg
     
  11. Aspen500

    Aspen500 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure about the necked down area. My radiator yoke was replaced with a new one from Dodge, way back in '89 after "the incident" (deluge of rain, 20 mph, stalled car appeared in front of me out of nowhere, hit the brakes, brake hose blows, pedal goes to the floor and,,,,,,son of a you know what). At the same time, I put the front panels in for a 26" radiator. Since the car was apart to repair the damage, was good a time as any to do the BB swap. I made it removable a few years later. It's actually a hold over from the cars semi pro-street days of the early '90's.
    About those trans bell housing bolts, they are a bit interesting to get out, especially when you want to avoid scratching the firewall. The top ones will JUST come out. If they were 1mm longer, they'd run into the firewall. Patience is a good trait to have with those.:eek:
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
  12. BudW

    BudW Moderator Staff Member

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    - Copy_jpeg.jpg

    I've never noticed a neck down at that location - but that is the location where the (police) external transmission cooler lines are routed.

    Aspen500 - I like your thinking and might consider doing the same thing - but to me, it is a lot easier, especially with an large engine and/or headers, to lower engine/transmission/K-frame down as an assembly (raise body over powertrain).
    BudW
     
  13. Aspen500

    Aspen500 Well-Known Member

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    I agree that would be easier, PROVIDED you have the equipment to do it that way (I don't).
     
  14. BudW

    BudW Moderator Staff Member

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    I can understand that.
    I'll have more details on the way I do it, coming up in next year or so. It is a lot easier than one thinks. If done correctly – it won’t affect the alignment, either (but can, depending on which way one does it).


    I’ve done so many engine (with transmission attached) removal/re-installs (all Chrysler body types) and will agree it is a royal pain (. . . with the hood removed). I can only imagine how it is with hood still attached.

    Dodge pickups (any year) can’t be done any other way – but out over the fender tops (or after cab removal, first).

    B-vans (1971-2003) – there are 3 ways to remove the engine:
    - Through the doghouse (with transmission unbolted) – which is a royal pain, especially if a customized van. This method is not possible with a /6 or a big block (I’ve tried).
    - Through the front (can be done either with transmission attached, or not) – but is a ton of work and you’re working with a limited size hole. It reminds me of building a ship inside of a glass bottle.
    - Or engine dropped down with K-frame attached. This method does require an alignment, but is SO MUCH easier and quicker – especially if you have access to a twin-post frame-contact lift.
    The closest thing I can consider as a comparison (third method) is painting a house with a 1” wide paint brush vs. using a commercially built air-powered paint spray gun.

    After working on several B-vans, I started to do this with cars and found it to be a lot faster (on most body types). The C/Y-body’s and newer B/R-bodies are an exception because of their subframe size. A, older B, E and FMJ-body’s work great this method – even if you don’t have a lift. You need to have something larger than a single car garage, though. A 1.5 car garage (or larger) is enough space – if you don’t have access to a lift.

    This is from our sister forum boards:
    https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/k-frame-stand.151207/
    https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/built-me-a-new-tool.350813/
    https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/k-frame-cradle.65082/
    Same method, but different body types.

    My plan is to make a pair of movable stand using 4x4 lumber and is better suited for FMJ body’s. One for “new” engine/transmission/K-frame and one for “old” engine/transmission/K-frame, so I can raise car up, remove one powertrain and move in new powertrain – so car can be back on its own wheels in no time. Most people can get by with one engine stand. Pictures, dimensions, costs (and procedures) will be given later - but should be done for about $50 in supplies (or so).
    BudW
     
  15. Aspen500

    Aspen500 Well-Known Member

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    Off topic a little but, on many of the newer (newer meaning 2000 and up) vehicles I work on, the ONLY way to remove the engine is out the bottom. There is no other option. Basically you remove the entire powertrain, steering, part of the suspension, etc. and then detach the engine or trans, depending on which one you are replacing or change the timing chains on the infamous GM 3.6L (bring 'em on!). Those without a "cradle" are a little trickier but still get lowered out the bottom as an engine/trans assy. I seem to get most of the jobs like that which come into the shop (and I'm fine with it). That's why I get paid the big bucks, lol.
     
  16. 4speedjim

    4speedjim Well-Known Member

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    I think the core supports drop down for the fenders to bolt to. I thought at one time, hood clearance, My hood is about 1/4" above the lower ends of the core support. I also thought it was the radiator/cap "raised center" but really its due to the fenders bolting well below the hood and body line I believe.
    My /6 J with factory ac has a 22" opening 24.5" bolt hole distance and pass side in/out. Mine was packed full of hard water deposits, packed solid and a correct fitted radiator was out of reach for me and no radiator shops anywhere around me in NY with all the laws and everything. So a summer of straight white vinegar and 5 bottles of CLR flushes monthly I got the motor cleared out well. The radiator needed rod-ed and there was no place to take it. I also run a section of pantyhose as a filter in the top inlet. I bought a 24" 3 core 73 Mustang radiator with 25" bolt hole distance and some self tapping screws for the drivers side, "no battery clearance issues" and pass side in/out for a big block ford. Mopar eventually. It gets warm in traffic on the few 90*+ days with no shroud or T-stat to allow the coolant to sit in the radiator long enough to cool. Im running the stock clutch fan. The clutch is 1/2" - 5/8" away from the core. The core is slightly blocked by a tube on each side and theres 1" clearance on the bottom of the radiator, but I dont recall the height of it. 18 1/2" maybe?
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
  17. slant6billy

    slant6billy Well-Known Member

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    We put an Aluminum 22 inch meant for a 70-71 A body in Gator's 78 Roadrunner- non AC car 318 2bbl. IMG_1845.JPG IMG_1846.JPG IMG_1847.JPG IMG_1848.JPG IMG_1849.JPG IMG_1850.JPG
     
  18. 4speedjim

    4speedjim Well-Known Member

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    WOW It looks like a 26" would fit right in there if you needed one that big.