The ‘13 Hemi teardown begins…

[Lightning II]

After 4 months, I’ve finally started the teardown on the ‘13 5.7 Hemi that I got. So far it’s just the passenger-side head that’s been pulled off.

The closeup shot is of the #2 cylinder.

 

[Lightning II]

Tomorrow I'll get the other head and the engine mounts pulled off.

 

[Aspen500]

Is that the head of an intake valve stuck through the piston?

 

[Lightning II]

Thankfully it does not seem to be the case. If anything is wrong with the others my plan is to get a set of the Pre-Eagle pistons.

 

[Lightning II]

Well, we’re moving along. Driver’s-side head is now off, as is the oil pan.

Good news: all 16 lifters look like they’re in good shape.

Unsure about a couple lobes on the cam though. Might need a set of rings too.

Next, I need to either find a big enough pulley puller, or get a spacer or something to fit on the crank snout so I can get the pulley off and the front cover. EDIT: Thank goodness for YouTube, It looks like I wasn't grabbing the right spot with my puller's claws. If I get up early enough tomorrow morning I'll have the front cover off.

 

[Lightning II]

And…it looks like I need a new camshaft. Whatever 300 this engine was in originally was going to be off of the road within a couple months of the accident that totaled it anyways.

Now…I’ve gotta figure out what to choose for a camshaft.

 

[Duke5A]

Not surprising. These things have a reputation for eating camshafts. You were wise to do a complete a disassembly rather than just tossing it in.

 

[M_Body_Coupe]

And…it looks like I need a new camshaft. Whatever 300 this engine was in originally was going to be off of the road within a couple months of the accident that totaled it anyways.

Now…I’ve gotta figure out what to choose for a camshaft.

Ummm...BIG...is of course what you were thinking, right? (LOL)

 

[Aspen500]

Cams seemed to a common failure on them at the shop when I was a tech. Never was sure if a roller lifter that wasn't rolling anymore ruined rhe cam, or vice versa. If it's any consolation the "almighty LS" does the same thing, only more often. On those the cheap ass lifter guides break, and the lifter turns sideways. Cam lobe failure soon follows.

 

[Lightning II]

From all the research I've done, it looks like it's a combination of the metal of the lobe, the needle bearings on the lifters being too small, and the grade of oil used. It could also be the original oil pumps aren't pumping enough volume at idle for the ones running very long idle times.

I do plan on getting a high volume oil pump as well, probably one of Melling's.

 

[Lightning II]

Ummm...BIG...is of course what you were thinking, right? (LOL)

I'm really leaning towards either the 6.4 cam or the BTR Truck Norris cam. I plan to beat on it like it owes me money

 

[Mikes5thAve]

Consensus is that it's the shitty bearings in the lifters. It's the same thing that causes the problem pentastar engines have in their top end.
It seems like some engines get it and others no problems at all just like LS's and all you can do is hope yours is ok. The stupid thing is how the issues have dragged on at all for 14 years.

 

[Aspen500]

Yes, the 3.6L (at least one's in the mini vans) have cam problems also. Obviously they have roller cam followers (a.k.a. rocker arms) vs lifters but, same basic thing happens, usually on the rear bank for some reason.

 

[Sub03]

I've gone through a bunch of forums and videos on the web trying to find out what's causing the lifter/cam failures. I have a charger with the 5.7 Hemi and i'm worried sick the dreaded lifter tick is gonna sneak up on me some day.
What seems to be a common explanation is the lifters is not getting lubricated when idling, causing the needle bearing to fail. The number of fleet cars with lifter problems is apparently backing up this theory.

My solution is to redline the Charger as often as possible.

 

[kkritsilas]

From everything I have read, and seen on Youtube, the issue stems from inadequate oiling of the cams in the Hemi engine. The Issue is that the cam (by which I am speaking in general) is oiled with a "splash" oiling method. There is no pressure feed to the cam area, relying on the crankshaft splashing oil in the crankcase up to the the cam/lifter area, so any significant amount of idling (lower rpm will splash less oil and splash oil less often, into the cam/lifter area) will reduce the amount of oil getting into the cam/lifter contact area. There are huge amounts of Hemis in this part of the world that are failing, and most of them due to cam/lifter failures in the cam/lifter area. The oil and gas industry in Alberta has a policy of allowing any vehicles to idle for hours on end as a safety precaution in case of emergency at oil sites. Having Hemis idle for hours on end is a guarantee that there will be failures due to the splash oiling of the cam/lifter interface.

 

[Mikes5thAve]

If it was an idling issues it would primarily show up in Fleet vehicles and only and a very low number of normal vehicles would have problems but it's an issue all over. The thing with fleet vehicles is the amount of idling is the same as adding mileage to them so when they do get problems it also gets worse and shows up a lot faster then a normal use vehicle.
The way they're lubricated has never changed over the earlier hemis and older roller cam engines but there is something going on when other manufacturers have the same sort of issues. Maybe it comes down to thinner oils or lack of additives like what's killing off non roller cams.

 

[kkritsilas]

It does show up in fleet vehicles, a lot. Mostly, as stated with oilfield vehicles. There are vast amounts of Ram 1500/2500 trucks that all have camshaft/lifter issues up here. The instances of 300s, Chargers, and Challengers having these issues is lower, at least up here.

I think the problem on the Hemis is that the areas where the splashed oil can get to the cam/lifter interface area are too small, so not permitting enough oil to get to that area. The thinner oils may be a contribution factor. However, the non-roller cam engines were engineered to use oil that had higher levels of zinc (mostly, but other metals as well) than current oils do. The Hemis, being a much more modern design, and using roller lifters, should be fine with the lower zinc levels.

I think that there may also be an issue with the amount of surface hardening of the cams. Maybe it isn't as hard as it should be, or that the hardening is not going as deep into the lobes as it should to allow for a long life. From your own pictures, the rollers on the lifters look fine, but the cam doesn't. As well, not all of the cam lobes are chewed up, which may mean that only one lobe is improperly hardened, or is starved for oil. Just guesses

 

[Lightning II]

I think that there may also be an issue with the amount of surface hardening of the cams. Maybe it isn't as hard as it should be, or that the hardening is not going as deep into the lobes as it should to allow for a long life. From your own pictures, the rollers on the lifters look fine, but the cam doesn't. As well, not all of the cam lobes are chewed up, which may mean that only one lobe is improperly hardened, or is starved for oil. Just guesses

That's what I'm thinking is at least half the problem with them. I did find another lobe just beginning to get ground into by a lifter one cylinder down on the same intake lobe.

From what I've seen, the lifters were updated in 2015-16 and there's larger needle bearings in the lifters now. Hopefully my next set of lifters will be the correct ones. I'll probably get the set that come with the MDS-Delete plugs.

 

[SRTMirada]

Lots of good comments here but I would like to add something that hasn't been mentioned. The gen 3 hemi design locates the camshaft much higher in the block in order to improve the pushrod angle. There is no lifter valley for the oil to pass through and splash on the camshaft on it's way back to the oil pan. In fact it bypasses this area entirely and drains back through holes on the outside of the block. This arrangement isn't compatible with excessive idling. My mopar mechanic friend tells me that he sees it mostly with work trucks and police vehicles.

 

[Mikes5thAve]

The original Gen 3 hemis didn't have the lifter/cam issues yet they have the same higher cam location and any lack of oiling from splash so there's more to it then that. There could very well be something to do with lack of oiling at idle but like I said excessive idling is the same as adding mileage so if two engines start to develop problems at the same time it's going to continue wearing faster on the vehicle with more idle hours because of the extra use it sees so of course the problems will be more apparent in those vehicles. There could be any number normal use hemis on the road in the early stages of failure but it'll take a lot longer for them to wear to the point that it's obvious.

Getting back on track do your research well before picking up a new cam and lifters because a lot of aftermarket ones are failing even faster then the oem parts are. Which probably has a lot more to do with materials and quality control over any inherent enginge issues.