What to do with my 318

Engines, Exhaust and Fuel Systems

  1. Jnfbodyguy83

    Jnfbodyguy83 Well-Known Member

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    Duke you hit it dead on the nose! Thats exactly what im working with. It was a smog motor and still has the factory pistons in it as well. I figured I would do that cam with the heads and just be done with it. Till I can afford what I really want. Thank you for the support man.
     
  2. XfbodyX

    XfbodyX Well-Known Member

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  3. Jnfbodyguy83

    Jnfbodyguy83 Well-Known Member

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  4. XfbodyX

    XfbodyX Well-Known Member

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    A good set of oem lifters would be equal or better then comps entry level hydros.

    Before id spend equal money on a comp 822-16 id buy these, hard to beat good quality older parts.

    Mopar Small Block Erson Hydraulic Lifters Set (16) New | eBay

    I snagged a set of older clevite 77 rod bearings for 22.50 shipped and a full set of oem rockers (trw) for $30 shipped off ebay of people just dumping inventory and not being greedy.

    If you spend the time to look you can do alot with good parts if you dont have to have the latest cool looking packaging.

    If you have time to shop, a ebay seller from time to time has older nice johnson hylift usa made lifters by the flats (bulk) for $40 a set of 16 shipped. I grabbed a couple sets.

    Got a nos 318 balancer for $40 shipped, made in the late 90s and much better the the $100 china junkers.

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    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
  5. Jnfbodyguy83

    Jnfbodyguy83 Well-Known Member

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    Nice I'll have to keep my eyes open. As for the lifters i had a set of sealed power oe lifters laying around. Thats why i asked.
     
  6. XfbodyX

    XfbodyX Well-Known Member

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    As for the lifters i had a set of sealed power oe lifters laying around.

    Use them.
     
  7. Jnfbodyguy83

    Jnfbodyguy83 Well-Known Member

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    Cool. Then they only real factor for that cam is stiffer springs on the valves
     
  8. AJ/FormS

    AJ/FormS Well-Known Member

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    I can only go by what he said. I used.012 as "almost flush"

    But if the pistons are down .057(11.2cc) and gasket(6.8cc) and head(58cc) then the Scr comes in at 9.58. That with an Ica of 57*, is predicted to make 161Psi with a Q of .085. ...... Can you buy gas in NY to satisfy that? Ok so make it an .039 gasket and add 2cc, now totals 78cc and the Scr comes in at 9.36, and pressure predicted at 157psi with a Q of .096. Better but....... .096 is a lazy quench, and kindof defeats the purpose of the 302 heads. you might as well have kept the smoggers, which if in fact were 65cc, and with an .020 gasket; then the difference is only 2.6cc or so. By the time you straighten them up, you wouldda been even.

    The 302s can make a great combo with the right total chamber volume and Ica.
    If I work the numbers backwards I get a 9.8Scr and a 61* Ica for 160psi and a Q of .050. This might burn mid-grade at WOT with full timing.
    The combo is 5cc eyebrow pistons @.022 down in the holes, with an .028 gasket and the 58cc heads; for a total chamber volume of 74cc.
    (652+74)/74=9.8cr
    The 61* Ica comes on a 268/276/110 cam, in at 107. The VP comes to 122, about as good as you can get with this type of combo. She might like at least 3.23s(3.55 better), and a 2400TC(up to 2800 is better) wouldn't hurt with a 2.45 low trans. Yeah you'll need a SureGrip.
    Jus trying to help.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  9. BudW

    BudW Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm a believer on running with what you already have - but somethings what you have doesn't work together.

    It also appears you are doing things correctly by researching and asking questions. I know of many who jump in blind and are frustrated with the results of un-matched parts and so forth.


    The Edelbrock Performer 2176 (or 3776) is a great intake for 318’s. Its also lighter than the cast iron version and is reported to flow better than the factory cast iron intakes.
    Note: the 3776 has EGR provision whereas the 2176 does not. There might be a digit after 2176x/3776x if polished or painted.

    The Performer RPM is similarly named but is no where close to same intake.
    The Performer works best for street driving and might be one of the best “streetable” intakes out there unless you have a really warmed-over engine that can make RPM’s.

    The Performer intake will bolt right onto a 318 (small ports) as is. It will also work with 340/360 (large port) heads with a minor modification (remove the lip) performed, first (below).
    Performer 2176.3776.png


    The 600-cfm carb sounds like a great choice (if mostly stock or mild mods) – but I agree with others, the AVS/Edelbrock Thunder might be a better choice (or, gasp, a Holley with vacuum secondaries – I’m not a Holly fan). Sense you already own the AFB, go ahead and use it for it might work just fine for you.
    Keep in mind you will need a longer throttle cable (Pioneer CA-8422, ATP Y-160, Mopar 4027355 or 4306179) and different kickdown linkage to get the 4-bbl to work. Factory 4-bbl linkage is hard to find and sometimes is wrong or incomplete if found used.
    My recommendation is to replace the factory kickdown linkage with a cable system, for It makes that aspect a breeze.
    https://www.manciniracing.com/retobotokica.html
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lok-kd-2904ht/overview/ (or similar system).


    I like the idea of you using the chain tensioner. I will always install one on any small block rebuild I do. It costs a bit more money and a bit more labor – but it will keep engine timing right on spot.
    Note: the double roller timing chain will be nosier than the aluminum/plastic gear version, but it will last forever. The only reason Chrysler used the aluminum/plastic gears were because they were cheaper and quieter. A person could order a HD 318 - with means it comes with the double roller chain, instead of the aluminum/plastic one.


    Measure and calculate, re-measure and re-calculate. Do it again if needed. Best to do it correctly and know what you have than to mis-match things and spend forever trying to figure out what went wrong.

    Factory “installed piston heights” are inconsistent and almost always leaves the compression ratio less (or way less) than expected. I would bet $5 dollars (if I had it to bet . . .) your existing pistons are not even close to the deck. If crank and pistons are installed, it doesn’t take much to measure 'em. If engine is apart – well, that takes a bit more time to figure it out.

    I have seen some factory small blocks, made in the late ‘70’s, that come a good ½” short of the deck. Not saying yours do – but it is always a good idea to measure twice and cut once . . . wait, I’m thinking of woodworking here – but same principle applies here.
    BudW
     
  10. Jnfbodyguy83

    Jnfbodyguy83 Well-Known Member

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    Well i had already converted it over to a 4bbl prior to the tear down. So I have everything I need for that. My only concern is i bought stock replacement head gaskets, should I have gone thicker or will I be ok with the stock? Since I'll have to get stiffer springs for the valves
     
  11. XfbodyX

    XfbodyX Well-Known Member

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    .070 was the norm for most the 70-s. .090 was seen from time to time.

    Bud, he he! .500 below deck would of made them 4.5:1 although they ran like it.

    Bud, Ive noticed you have stressed the port mis match, on street light strip motors its not a really big deal, even the big port to port heads/intakes were a crappy fit do to casting and the difference in the oem deck height numbers.

    Although Im not a fan of Larry Shepard, in his how to build max performance small block he nots the port difference on the 360 to 318 intake on page 100 he says its ok.

    Many have done it and seen nothing but improvements. Id guess there lack of improvement was from a different area.

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    I ran your favorite carb and a oem 360 intake in a 318 in a F for over 20 years and never had a regret. Gonna clean it up, put a kit in the carb and back on a teener it goes. (But truth be told, im good with the carbs, never had good luck working in T quads and although I love quadrajets, they need to stay on gm-s.)

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    Bud if you think about it, a simple head gasket change say from a .060 to a .028 is going to change the intake to head port alignment (height), as I mentioned deck height variation will change it as well. Now on a race motor where most the time the intake is married to the heads for life one can spend a couple days in the mock up stages to get each port to head look and feel like a seamless fit and the end result shows but its not a fun job.

    I think ive a few pics, I will look but the intake runner to the valve end up looking like one big seamless runner, but again its a one and done deal for the heads and intake.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  12. XfbodyX

    XfbodyX Well-Known Member

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    Here is a typical 318 at .075 in the hole.

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  13. BudW

    BudW Moderator Staff Member

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    i agree there. I have only worked on a few Q-jet's (Rochester QuadraJet), so not enough to form an opinion.

    I agree and this is (sometimes) an overlooked aspect. When a person machines a cylinder head (removes material from deck of cylinder head) or uses a thinner/thicker head gasket - a person also needs to machine the intake manifold a corresponding amount to keep the intake ports matched as well as (on small blocks) machine the bottom of intake so there is sufficient gasket thickness that intake doesn’t push the gasket out (which on small blocks is a topic for another discussion to begin with).
    In case of thicker head gaskets, a person will need to find thicker intake gaskets which are available if one looks hard enough.

    “Some” intake port mismatch (like cylinder head deck machine) is nothing to worry about for street usage. Racing, yes, but not for street.
    This chart was found online. Chrysler small blocks – the intake surface is not an 90’ angle from the head gasket surface which makes machining numbers a bit tricky. A person might need to break out the trig books . . . if you took trig in school.
    Milling.jpg


    Now 273/318 intake port vs. 340/360 intake port size (mismatch) is a bigger concern (IMO). If a person is using a 318 port size cylinder head, a person will need to find a true 318 4-bbl intake (not so easy to find - which is not the 318 police 4-bbl intake which uses 360 ports) or use the Performer 2176/3776 intake (which I think you may already have).

    The 318 intake port size might be what limits your RPM's, so using a large port intake on a small port cylinder head can be (might be) noticeable. For a street car, I don't think this is not a big issue – except for the little bit of fuel that puddles at the port size differences meet at. Hard braking or a hard turn can cause a sudden richness condition that can stall the engine from the puddled fuel entering the intake. The lip on the Performer 2176/3776 prevents that problem on 318 heads.
     
  14. BudW

    BudW Moderator Staff Member

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    For a few years (thirty + years ago), I ran a Performer 2176 on a 340 engine (with the lip in place). The car (’67 Plymouth Satellite) ran great and 6000 RPM shifts were no problem (other than the fact I had a hard time with the ’69 and older cast iron water pump bearings which seem to fall apart at that RPM). A friend told me about the lips. I removed intake and removed them (quick job). On the street, I couldn’t tell the difference. At the track (Tulsa Dragstrip), it was almost 0.2 seconds quicker (0.18) with no other changes other than lip removal. This was with a stock ’69 340, X-heads and a camshaft a hair smaller than the ’68 340 manual transmission cam.


    Note: I don’t like Holley’s. That doesn’t mean they don’t treat many people well, nor will I demean anyone from using one. It just means I won’t use one. My experience shouldn’t alter someone else’s buying habit. If it works for you – then great!

    Carburetors are a funny item. You can take several of them (same or different makes/versions) and each one will have different personalities. One might work better for street driving and the next one nets a better time at the track. I’m not speaking about jetting and fine tuning. I’m just talking “in general”. I have also seen huge carburetors work wonderfully on small blocks and a tiny one work best on big blocks, and other oddities like that.

    I ran a 340/383 AVS on the above mentioned 340. I also tested a 440 HP AVS on it for a short term, trying to fix a problem. My 340 loved that larger 440 HP carburetor, for car would literally jump 10 foot with the smallest touch of the throttle (because of the larger primary throttle bores). In the end, it was just too much for me to handle especially driving in parking lots in on tight roads.
    BudW
     
  15. XfbodyX

    XfbodyX Well-Known Member

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    Great reply Bud!

    Its not to hard to get 6k out of a 318 head, a simple valve size increase, bowl work, opening the pinch csa and increasing port volume. The positive side of the spread bore in the smaller side makes like a 2bbl carb and it might be cheating a bit but that aids alot to keep the velocity up. The combustion chamber dont care where the air speed of the intake charge comes from, weather a small valve or small port or a small entryway at the carb. Thats part of why the 6bbl setup is such a good street setup.

    I wish this site was more open to 318 build conversations without people going right to build a 360 or find a 340, a 400hp iron headed 318 isnt rocket science and I like the part of taking a 150hp pos and making 400hp thats easy to drive. I dont own a abody so im not a member of fabo but they have alot of 318 builds, some better then others but at least there when one says lets talk about a/my 318 people try to stick to the op-s core question more then here :(

    If you think about it getting 400hp out of a 318 that was 150hp at birth is going 2.666 times the org. output. Thats like taking a 375hp 440 and doing the simple math 375x2.666 and getting 988hp out of a stock stroke 440 and if folks were doing that, the crowd would be full of ooohs and ahhhs.

    So a strong running 318 can be impressive in its own way. People forget that even jumping to a 360 build at 450HP is cool but in the big picture many modern V6 cars can outperform that easily, so weather a 318 or 360 under the hood getting beat by a V6 is still getting beat.
     
  16. Jnfbodyguy83

    Jnfbodyguy83 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you there. Now if the motor was toast then I'd consider going with a different power plant. Like i said before, im quite satisfied with what I have currently.
     
  17. rcmaniac791

    rcmaniac791 Well-Known Member

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    This is a super interesting thread so I'm just here to follow.....
     
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  18. Jnfbodyguy83

    Jnfbodyguy83 Well-Known Member

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    So an update.... I finally got ahold of comp and they suggest just their spring kit. I asked if I need to run any different lifters or pushrods and the guy on the phone said im good to go with stock application. Making progress
     
  19. Camtron

    Camtron Member

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    I have a 89 Fifth Ave with a 318 and 302 heads. I just installed a 1901 Demon carb, Edelbrock performer intake, summit racing headers, Bassani X pipe and custom exhaust...nothing but improvements across the board. I’m sure a cam and some valve work would have only made things better but, I haven’t got that far. Doing suspension/steering upgrades now. I’d put the parts you have together and enjoy the ride.
     
  20. Opticon77

    Opticon77 Well-Known Member

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    Remember that 302 heads don't flow up top (just good low end torque due to port velocity and efficiency with that fast burn chamber). So aim your cam selection at the idle-4500rpm range and you'll make good use of all those parts.
    -OR-
    For BEST use of those parts, select better flowing heads and a higher RPM cam to match. Be prepared to need a higher stall converter and/or more rear gear to keep it from bogging the launch.