Why "Don't we get no respect?"

[My imp]

Where is Schuyler County? Was that a Tennessee plate on your Diplomat?

 

[Jack Meoff]

He's in New York State...just north of Elmira.

Hey Robert....aim for summer....
Got a bit of work to do to the Caravelle before I do that run.
Not to bad for me....five hours and change.

And for the record....I'd be honored to park my ride beside any of yours...or anyone else's for that matter.

 

[ramenth]

He's in New York State...just north of Elmira.

Hey Robert....aim for summer....
Got a bit of work to do to the Caravelle before I do that run.
Not to bad for me....five hours and change.

And for the record....I'd be honored to park my ride beside any of yours...or anyone else's for that matter.

Actually, one of the reasons we're aiming for fall (September) is that a lot of the big shows take up the summer and would be hard to schedule around. WGI closes up around that time of the year, with just some small SCCA events and if someone wanted to stay the night or weekend it would be easier to book a hotel room with NASCAR being folded up and gone a month prior. I live just four miles from the track and it's no fun to be around when a major event is in town.

There's nothing definitive, yet, we're still in the planning stages. I'll keep everyone informed.

 

[Jack Meoff]

Actually, one of the reasons we're aiming for fall (September) is that a lot of the big shows take up the summer and would be hard to schedule around. WGI closes up around that time of the year, with just some small SCCA events and if someone wanted to stay the night or weekend it would be easier to book a hotel room with NASCAR being folded up and gone a month prior. I live just four miles from the track and it's no fun to be around when a major event is in town.

There's nothing definitive, yet, we're still in the planning stages. I'll keep everyone informed.

Fall works even better for me....
Oh yeah....I know it's not even planned....
But if it did come together and time and commitments allowed
I'd certainly shoot down.
Besides....I'm dying to see your Crestline....

 

[alf44]

i vote for the mopars in the park in Mn, of course.... im a half hour from there,lol. i would LOVE to meet a few of you guys and girls there, im trying to get my car ready for june. hope to see some of you there !

 

[My imp]

I always plan on going to many more shows than I do, but then life steps in & says "You really didn't want to go that show did you!". "Yeah Life, I did!". "Oh well, you know what they say...". "Yeah, Life sucks, & then you...."

 

[holmes]

I know what you mean about no respect, When I won this trophy at MMW I was in the stands watching drag racing with my daughter and my buddy Hutch. When we returned to the FABO area I heard some friends yelling at me that I had won a trophy, I about sh@@ my pants.
I also solved the problem of parking next to someone by parking my Aspen next to my Duster.

 

[ramenth]

I know what you mean about no respect, When I won this trophy at MMW I was in the stands watching drag racing with my daughter and my buddy Hutch. When we returned to the FABO area I heard some friends yelling at me that I had won a trophy, I about sh@@ my pants.
I also solved the problem of parking next to someone by parking my Aspen next to my Duster.

"Returned to the FABO area..." Were they yelling to tell you you had won a trophy for the F-body or yelling at you because you won a trophy for the F-body?

Not to sound cynical, but I was around FABO during the... less than receptive... days of the F-body subforum. Hell, I took more shit than most for it being there.

 

[My imp]

I rest my case! If I can only get a couple of ducks in a row this year. I plan on turning something out by the Nat.'s. it's not that I need more things to go good, it's just I could use a couple fewer not to go bad! Everytime you earmark money for something that you'll never touch it, BAM! Something happens that gives you no choice! Dyanwimn? That's the longest word in the world, "Do you all know what I mean? I know you probably don't want to hear this, but those 4 door Aspens & Volares like that are the exact same color & everything that we used at Fl. DOT. They set a min. bid of $400, they got no bids. Of course this is going back to 1987, but the only thing wrong with them was the hole cut in the right 1/4 panel for the antenna. I think the reason they didn't sell was that there was no A/C.

 

[kkritsilas]

I hate to say it, but you know what I see? A lot of chips on shoulders about the vehicle of choice.

I'll say this... I've been on FEBO now for about four or five years, thanks to owning a '74 Barracuda. Contrary to popular belief, most of the guys over there don't have million dollar egos to go with million dollar rides. Most of the guys over there happen to be just like most of us out there in the real world: working class guys, building cars with working class guy budgets. There's a few over there who are into restoring and collecting the higher dollar cars, but you know the amount of negativity I've seen for building an M-body (actually, two)? None. Imagine that.

But then, again, I build what I want to build and almost everyone respects that.

What I do see here, though, in this thread, is some of the negativity we perceive coming to us for owning and building the "off letter cars" reflecting back on us. So, I own four B-bodies and one E-body. Am I gonna now start seeing some of the negativity coming my way for wanting to build and drive the cars of my choice?

Once upon a time I floated the idea out there of having a Joey's forums get together at my place next fall. I've had guys from Michigan and Florida tell me that if I give 'em a date, they'll be here. Oh, by the way, they'd be making the trip in E-bodies. That's commitment, not just to getting together for the sites, but also to me, as a member of the community. But, because they'd be coming in E-bodies, would anyone here have an issue parking his or her F,M, or J next to it? 'Cause I can guarantee they wouldn't have any issues with it. Contrary to popular belief, thanks to threads like this one.

Maybe I'm reading too much into shit like this. Maybe I'm not. All I know is my M-body doesn't care if it's parked next to E-body and vice versa. They don't care if they share the garage space with any of my B-bodies and in turn don't care if they sit next to one of my Fords. What I do know, is if you're talking about someone turning his or her nose up at your car and then you do the same at theirs, you've become the very person you're complaining about. Usually the segregation starts with the person claiming segregation.

That may be what you see. Tell you what I have seen. I have a friend who owns a 1951 Mercury Sedan. At the local weekly car show, he gets no end of grief because he has a Chev 350/700R4 powertrain. Whole load of bull like "Fords should have Ford Engines in them", "It ain't a real Ford with a Chevy in it", etc. First of all, when he got the car, it had a flathead in it. The car has a level of workmanship that would make you think it was a factory install, and it drives just as well. These so called "purists" can't see any of that, all they can see is that it doesn't conform to their concept of being "right". Hasn't happened to me with my J bodies yet as I haven't brought either of my cars to the shows yet. I expect that it will. This isn't a chip on my shoulder, its the real world.

Same show location, different week, there is a guy who is an aviation mechanic (commercial jets). He built, from scratch, a Bugatti (classic Bugatti, not Veyron) Atlantique/Type 57 Touring inspired convertible. He designed it, hammered out the aluminum body panels by hand. It was built on a narrowed police Crown Victoria chassis. The car has a power operated hard roof (convertible), power everything. I am just floored by the skill, ingenuity, engineering, and sheer quality of the workmanship. Its something much like you would expect a Boyd Coddington custom roadster would have. A guy comes by, looks it over, talks to the guy who made it, and says something to the effect of "it should have been built on a Mustang chassis, it would have handled better". The guy who built it took 5 years to complete the car. He not only built it, the top mechanism had to be redesigned 3 times (he finally got it to fit well enough that it self latches). He taught himself how to paint cars, and it is a root beer colored candy (beige full leather interior, stitched together by his wife from raw leather he cut). This is what the smart ass could say to this person. The builder left, and I haven't seem him since. I mumbled something like remarkable, amazing, but honestly, I was really busy just freaking out to much to make sense.

These so-called purists are what is rubbing people the wrong way. And they are in every crowd, for every make. I know I have been welcomed to join the local Mopar club by the president (meet him regulary at the show), and been given the cold shoulder by a couple of members by the same club (because I don't own a big block, not because I own a J body).

Kostas

 

[My imp]

What got my panties in a bunch was that I was at a show with one of my Chargers. When I installed the fenders, I used fender bolts that were factory Mopar, supplied by the Anchor Bolt Co. in Cleveland, Oh. They were identical in everyway except the design of the anchor on the bolt head. I had no idea. But this "purist jag off" sure made a point of letting everyone know. I mean how desperate does one need to be to prove he isn't on the planet wasting oxygen & doing his part of photosynthesis? I busted my balls making that car arrow straight, flawless paint, everything as good as I could afford to do. This was back in the day that if it wasn't Chevy, it wasn't sh*t! Back when you'd hope that the Mopar brethren would stick together, rather than to prove their self importance by ripping on another guides ride. Any of these ilk, I always ask them where their ride is? More often than not, it's still in the garage being restored! I've heard that "Nice car, but you should've put a BB in it. Or if you DARE to put any BB in there but a 440, you hear about it, "oh, couldn't you find a 440? I have a friend of a friend who has one sitting out back in his shed..." . Well hells bells, let's break out the wrenches!

 

[Jack Meoff]

My basic policy at shows is if you like my car and have questions or just wanna talk cars.....mine or yours....no problem. Happy to chat. You punk off about my car? Chat's over and you can move along.
Got no time for idiots.
Ultimately it's my car and I'll do whatever the hell I want to.
Don't like it?...go work on your own.

 

[My imp]

Or, buy mine, & make it the way you want it. Once I've done all I could do to the car, it would seem to have lost something, so you gotta fund the next project somehow... Then the fun of," Do you know how much it'll cost to put that back to showroom stock?", no, I don't, nor do I GAF! Buy it, or move on to pester someone else!

 

[Jack Meoff]

A LOT of these clowns are cheque writers....
And I have no interest in what some cheque writing POS has to say about my cars....you built your own and you're offering me constructive advice?
I'm all ears...but some dummy who signed his name, drove away and now you wanna tell me how it's done?...piss off.
A funny little story I've probably told before but.....
There's an old timer down the street from me who restores cars.
Does beautiful work...since I've been in the hood he's done a 65 stang, a 57 T bird and a 66 Charger....all have turned out breathtaking...interior and all.
When I got my rotbox Caravelle I figured...."hey...I'm in the club with this guy now"...I'd say hi and he wouldn't even wave....
Every weekend I'd go to my buddy's shop and work on it...
He'd drive by and eyeball my car...no doubt checking on my progress
Maybe he originally thought I was just paying someone to do it.
When I couldn't get into the shop I'd just work on it on the street.
Over the months I spent putting that junker together he seemed more and more intrigued....I finally got primer on it and he started "giving me the nod" as he drove by.... I finally got to the paint stage.....I can't shoot paint as well as necessary so I got a guy to shoot the paint....that weekend I was in my driveway putting the trim back on and he actually stopped for a second to look.
I said "Howdy"...he nodded and drive off.
I finally had her all back together and I was driving down the street like a guy who just won the lottery...I was slowly rolling along and he walked out into the middle of the street and stopped me....
He said..."Name's Dave....how do you like your car now?"
I said...."Uh...I love it".....
He said...."You did a great job...you should be proud of yourself" and walked back into his house.....
We've become great friends since that day.
He told me...he can't stand cheque writers...he said how can you take pride in your car if you never did anything yourself.
He's right....because I put so much time and work into that car it is indeed my pride and joy. So when some cheque writing clown comments about my car...I just "pull a Dave"

 

[Jack Meoff]

...

 

[ramenth]

That may be what you see. Tell you what I have seen. I have a friend who owns a 1951 Mercury Sedan. At the local weekly car show, he gets no end of grief because he has a Chev 350/700R4 powertrain. Whole load of bull like "Fords should have Ford Engines in them", "It ain't a real Ford with a Chevy in it", etc.

I wouldn't give him grief, but I'd walk on by. Antiques with the ubiquitous small block Chevy don't do it for me. Truthfully, I can go to any show around here and see the same set up. Ford/Dodge/whatever body with a cheap junkyard small block Chevy. But, hey, it's not my car. If he built it for his tastes, then that's all the matters, no matter what the naysayers say.

First of all, when he got the car, it had a flathead in it.

Damned good engines and can built to run. I'd wager that with the right wrench on it, the proper amount of research it would run circles around a lot of 350's.

The car has a level of workmanship that would make you think it was a factory install, and it drives just as well. These so called "purists" can't see any of that, all they can see is that it doesn't conform to their concept of being "right". Hasn't happened to me with my J bodies yet as I haven't brought either of my cars to the shows yet. I expect that it will. This isn't a chip on my shoulder, its the real world.

If you enter a show and put a car on display, then you're asking for opinions. Basically, what you're saying, is that the only opinions which matter are the ones who are gonna give you an "attaboy!" If you can't handle the negativity with the positive, then you've got a chip on your shoulder about your ride. Again, did you build it to please the masses or did you build it to please yourself? If you built it to please the masses then you have to take the bad with the good. If you built it to please yourself, then no one's opinion of it matters, no matter how much work you've put into it, how well engineered it is.

As someone who used to build cars for a living (and will again), I've had customers cars on the show field quite a bit, either just on display or in it for judging. I've heard the negative things. I've heard the positive things. To all of which I said "thank you." The reality is: if you put your car on display you are going to hear negativity. It's a fact of life. Grow a thicker skin to it or pull the car off display.

But, then again, you're talking to a man who has owned a '69 Sport Satellite 4 door factory 383-4bbl since he was sixteen. If I had a dollar for every nitwit who told me to pull the powertrain out, put it in a 2 door, and clone a Road Runner I'd have had enough money to build the car ten times over twenty years ago. My car, my build, my decisions. I don't have to justify my thought processes to anyone.

See, there's the rub. I don't want to be like the masses with my builds. If the masses are telling me to pull the 239 out of the '54 and replace it with a junkyard 350 because I can build more power on the cheap then why do I want to be like the masses? I've heard the same thing with my F250 for the past 25 years. Put a 460 in it! The fact I can build 450ft/lb of torque at less than 3000rpm, have 5th double over right in the middle of the power band at 70mph with my 300 inline tells me these are the people who's opinion is based solely on what they read in magazines.

And these are the same people who think they can build my car? Yeah, let 'em have their opinions. Let 'em think they can build my ride better than I can. I take it for what it's worth. Let 'em think that way all they want. It won't sway my opinion of what my ride is.

Same show location, different week, there is a guy who is an aviation mechanic (commercial jets). He built, from scratch, a Bugatti (classic Bugatti, not Veyron) Atlantique/Type 57 Touring inspired convertible. He designed it, hammered out the aluminum body panels by hand. It was built on a narrowed police Crown Victoria chassis. The car has a power operated hard roof (convertible), power everything. I am just floored by the skill, ingenuity, engineering, and sheer quality of the workmanship. Its something much like you would expect a Boyd Coddington custom roadster would have. A guy comes by, looks it over, talks to the guy who made it, and says something to the effect of "it should have been built on a Mustang chassis, it would have handled better". The guy who built it took 5 years to complete the car. He not only built it, the top mechanism had to be redesigned 3 times (he finally got it to fit well enough that it self latches). He taught himself how to paint cars, and it is a root beer colored candy (beige full leather interior, stitched together by his wife from raw leather he cut). This is what the smart ass could say to this person. The builder left, and I haven't seem him since. I mumbled something like remarkable, amazing, but honestly, I was really busy just freaking out to much to make sense.

So, he let the ignorant define his ride?

See, that's what I'm talking about. He wasn't prepared to hear someone of a differing opinion. They're going to come crawling out of the wood work, usually by someone who's never done the work, especially to an extent this guy has. Why do you even value such a person's opinion that you let them sway you in your thinking of what you've done?

These so-called purists are what is rubbing people the wrong way. And they are in every crowd, for every make. I know I have been welcomed to join the local Mopar club by the president (meet him regulary at the show), and been given the cold shoulder by a couple of members by the same club (because I don't own a big block, not because I own a J body).

Kostas

Newsflash. The so-called purists aren't the only ones out there. The true "purist" wouldn't be criticizing your buddy for putting a small block Chevy in a Merc, they'd be criticizing himself for not leaving the flathead in place. A "purist" wouldn't be criticizing a home built car for not having a Mustang suspension, a true "purist" wouldn't have anything to do with the car. A true "purist" wouldn't turn his nose up at your J-bod for not having a B or RB because he'd know the J-bodies weren't offered with one.

These people aren't "purists," they're elitists. They think only their opinions matter and are willing to voice it until the cows come home. Why would you let someone like that have any sway over any part of your life, much less over your ride of choice and the decisions you make for your ride? Let 'em have their opinions. They'll have one anyway, rather you like it or not. The only opinion that matters is your own.

 

[My imp]

The guy I bought the Imp of of was a check writer. Damn near everything I asked him about the car was a "The receipts in there (folder thick enough to choke Linda Lovelace!)". He was a great guy, but was he ever taken advantage of! For a car that was dyno tuned it ran like crap! It was so rich that it burned your eyes to be within 5' of the tailpipe. I got maybe 8-10 mpg on the highway driving that thing home! At the speed limit, as I had a bad HL switch. No dash lights, no dash (digital). My Dad was in the car ahead of me,& I asked him to keep it at or around the speed limit as I had no plates on the car. I occasionally would turn the lights off & on, & the courtesy function would give me a few seconds to check things out. I've already talked about that exhaust system. I would be interested if anyone with access to a Hollander guide for labor could figure an estimate. Headers, lead pipes, dual cat.'s, crossover pipe, dual mufflers, 2into1 over the axle pipe, resonator, exhaust tip. All welded, not a clamp in the system. Custom made hangers, along with stock ones, aluminized pipe & muff.'s, ceramic coated block hugger headers (receipt not there, so he didn't know the brand!). Just curious?

 

[ramenth]

He told me...he can't stand cheque writers...he said how can you take pride in your car if you never did anything yourself.

As someone who used to make his living off the check writers, I can tell you they take a lot of pride in their rides. They had to earn that money some how.

Think of it like a house. Most people don't build a house themselves; a person usually buys a house already built, or if he or she has the inclination, he or she pays someone to build it. There's hardly anyone out there who builds a house from the ground up... with his or her own bare hands. Are those who are against "check writers" saying a person shouldn't take pride in his or her home after investing thousands of dollars in it?

Did you build your home or are you paying for someone else's work? If you didn't build it, do you have less pride in it for not doing so?

I've got a nice garage in the works. I've working on getting the financing. I have the skill to build it myself, but not the time. I can hire someone to do it for me and have it built in less than a month. Or, I can build it myself and it'll take years. I want to be able to work out of it and start making money out of it. Should I wait to do it myself or pay someone to do for me and be able to start making money before the end of summer?

I'll take pride in it either way.

Most of the work I used to do was for folks who had a lot of sentimental value in the car. I'm talking about people who paid me to build a car which had been in the family for generations or one owner cars which were bought new off the lot and every single mile on the car was put on by the owner. For the most part, a lot of these owners knew they hadn't the skill to do it right. But I do and he or she paid for my skills, my time, my tools. A lot of these folks have a vision, but know he or she has limited skill of pulling off said vision. Either way, the vision is completed. And it's the execution of that vision that folks take pride in.

Ah, yes, tools. I have well over $50,000 invested in tools and equipment. I bought those tools over the past 25 years to make me money. Are you asking someone to make the same investment for a hobby or make the same investment for one project? Did you? Would you?

He's right....because I put so much time and work into that car it is indeed my pride and joy. So when some cheque writing clown comments about my car...I just "pull a Dave"

He's only partially right. A lot of people take a lot of pride in joy in what they have, no matter how they obtained it. You take more pride in doing the work yourself. That doesn't mean that others can't take the same amount of pride for having paid someone to do the same work.

 

[Jack Meoff]

As someone who used to make his living off the check writers, I can tell you they take a lot of pride in their rides. They had to earn that money some how.

Think of it like a house. Most people don't build a house themselves; a person usually buys a house already built, or if he or she has the inclination, he or she pays someone to build it. There's hardly anyone out there who builds a house from the ground up... with his or her own bare hands. Are those who are against "check writers" saying a person shouldn't take pride in his or her home after investing thousands of dollars in it?

Did you build your home or are you paying for someone else's work? If you didn't build it, do you have less pride in it for not doing so?

I've got a nice garage in the works. I've working on getting the financing. I have the skill to build it myself, but not the time. I can hire someone to do it for me and have it built in less than a month. Or, I can build it myself and it'll take years. I want to be able to work out of it and start making money out of it. Should I wait to do it myself or pay someone to do for me and be able to start making money before the end of summer?

I'll take pride in it either way.

Most of the work I used to do was for folks who had a lot of sentimental value in the car. I'm talking about people who paid me to build a car which had been in the family for generations or one owner cars which were bought new off the lot and every single mile on the car was put on by the owner. For the most part, a lot of these owners knew they hadn't the skill to do it right. But I do and he or she paid for my skills, my time, my tools. A lot of these folks have a vision, but know he or she has limited skill of pulling off said vision. Either way, the vision is completed. And it's the execution of that vision that folks take pride in.

Ah, yes, tools. I have well over $50,000 invested in tools and equipment. I bought those tools over the past 25 years to make me money. Are you asking someone to make the same investment for a hobby or make the same investment for one project? Did you? Would you?




He's only partially right. A lot of people take a lot of pride in joy in what they have, no matter how they obtained it. You take more pride in doing the work yourself. That doesn't mean that others can't take the same amount of pride for having paid someone to do the same work.

Well Sir...I think both of our statements can be taken two different ways.
Fundamentally in the same way you say you didn't build your house, I didn't build my car....Chrysler did but after years of neglect and abuse I took on the task of bringing it back to life...much the same way a new owner would rebuild their newly acquired house. And in the same way you mention time frames as far as getting things done...instead of taking months to do what I did I could pay someone to do it in half the time.
Obviously someone who puts up the kind of money required to restore a car could easily take as much pride in their car as I do and a lot that I've met indeed do. However as with all walks of life I've met a few arrogant types who want to make a point of showing you how much better their car is than yours. It doesn't exactly bother me but what does irk me about that particular situation is the fact that certain individuals are attempting to rub your nose in the fact that their car is superior to yours without messing up their manicure. It does happen. I happen to have a thick skin so I don't really care that much. And you must admit that one does take a certain amount more pride in the accomplishment of doing the work yourself.
Not everybody has the means or knowhow to do certain things themselves. I can't weld worth a hoot or shoot paint on the level I'd like to. Obviously I paid people to do that (wrote them a check). That's all well and fine.
I'm not knocking the guy who worked his butt off at work to buy what he's always wanted....I'm knocking the arrogant guy who wrote a check, showed up at a show, parked beside mine and proceeded to tell me his engine bay looks way nicer than mine....two different animals really.
As for my neighbor....maybe he's just had enough of the latter type and being on his senior years has decided he just doesn't have or want to waste his time with those type of people.
I hear what you're saying and I sorry for the generalization leading to the confusion in what I was trying to get across.
I have no problem with someone who worked hard one way or the other to get what the passionately want.
Same thing done two different ways...

 

[My imp]

I agree Cap'n. I started this as we don't get, not we don't give respect? At a cruise, my car isn't on display, merely parked. As Robert said also about the check writers paying his salary, again I dont have a problem. It's the guy that doesn't know the difference between a flare or box wrench bringing his flock of worshipers up to someone's car, & proceed to tell them what's wrong, what should've been done, what HE'D have done differently to prove his self worth to a crowd of novices, that I'm talking about. You are right about purists vs. elitest. I'm talking purist wannabees. Once again, (check your DVR's, they changed the name of Horsepower TV to PowerNation) they're rebuilding another junkyard LS engine. I've covered this in other threads. THIS is what gets under my skin! It's not the one jag off saying something negative about my car, it's the multitude that says the same thing, over, & over again. I've never enjoyed the peace I've found since I bought my Imp. Even though it's a ratty looking '81, everyone wants to see the non-Charger, Camaro, Mustang, etc.. As I've said before, 99% of the comment are positive, & the WORST I've had to deal with is, "when you slap a coat of paint on that thing it'll be mint!". I can live with that. I didn't mean this as a let's take up arms... piece, just an observation. Some comments are downright humorous. I raced a guy with my wife's '66 Coronet. I beat him so badly that when I checked my rear view mirror, he was so far behind that I wouldn't have been able to make out the type of vehicle. When we all started bench racing at the park, his friends started razzing him about his Chevy having its arse handed to him by a Mopar. His comment was, & I quote, "At least I ain't got a f*cking Dodge!". WTF? Why, so you'd have to get used to winning? You wouldn't have 1 less thing to complain about? See what I mean?