Dodge Aspen restoration project for my exam in one topic.

Kaitsu

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Damn... greed kills the joy, doesnt it? Do you have an approximate shipping cost on that kind of item such as yoke? I think I have something going on in a canadian junkyard noted me by certain Captain, so I think I could get my hands on one TF727 core transmission.

Off topic: I visited a local scrap yard yesterday. We have this "blood money" for cars more than 20 years old that if you give them to the crusher for scrap material, they give you 1500 euros when you buy a brand new car. I witnessed the end of a Diplomat that ran on its own wheels... I hope the owner enjoys his new Fiat.
 

greymouser7

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I can get you a shipping estimate, Pm me an address. sorry about your diplomat loss. I know I would be very pissed if I watched some mopar I coveted get crushed. there are allot of us hoarders here in the states
 

Kaitsu

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That´s the complete Address; National Moparts Inc.
B1935 Hwy #48 East,
Beaverton, Ontario

National Moparts Inc.
B1935 Hwy #48 East,
Beaverton, Ontario
Canada, L0K 1A0
C
 

Kaitsu

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I got an offer from a Finnish guy that offered me an intake manifold from -73 LA 340. I was wondering if it has the required threads/fittings for the ESA/ emission stuff. I guess it is for a 4- barrel carb since I specifically required that it needs to have sufficient mounts for Thermo- Quad. Give me your 2 cents.
EDIT: I need to start thinking all of these emission systems since I need to get them lower for the annual MOT. I barely could make it with my 318 last year with and no other emission things, so I´m concerned if the 360 has even bigger emissions, so I think I´d rather be safe than sure and install PCV, EGR, catalytic converter and an air pump. Has anyone got first or second hand- experiences of them?
 
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greymouser7

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I'll get a quote Monday for the tail or whole transmission. Remind me that i got to look for the headlight chrome knob as well-being ADHD makes me scatter-brained

Emissions. I am not sure how you are going to be successful. What motor did you say that you are running?

I don't know much but here's what I think:

David Vizard has an entire book dedicated to this.

Cam is the most important influence here, it makes up for any short-comings of your engine build (lack of compression, etc.) Near stock is closest to best emissions, unfortunately. The hot rod and car craft magazine editors have built POWERFUL 383 SBC motors which had to meet emissions- research engine builds thru google that were completed in california or the north eastern US.

Heads- 318 engine '302 heads', RHS Indy X heads, edelbrock heads, the speed-pro aluminum (edelbrock knock-off) -these heads have closed chambers. 1. Closed chambers will GENERALLY give you a more efficient combustion (more power/economy). 2. having the heads sorted out by a shop (that ports head and works with heads) will give you even distribution of fuel, air, and combustion when the shop matches valves/combustion chambers/intake-exhaust runners. even distribution means more efficiency, which is the theme of ICE emissions.

generally (pending valve size and cam as well) smaller bores are more efficient than larger ones- in our world it is splitting hairs unless you compare small block to big block. larger 2.02 valves in a 3.91" or 3.94" bore is not efficient flow

the 1970's went too far extreme when the fed's removed lead from fuel, an increase in COMPRESSION will help emissions, and combustion efficiency-generally. Not always, because the car makers in the late1970's did learn how to work around low compression.

Carburetor- it needs to be tuned, if possible, run the motor lean ONLY FOR THE INSPECTION, I blew my motor in my road runner because the cast piston got too hot {& the rings were not gapped enough) during a lean condition at speed. (85mph+)

A good electronic ignition (like MSD, Petronix, etc.) helps to ignite the combustion of fuel better- you want more volts (aftermarket coil) and some systems fire the pulse multiple times. that's an ecu (like msd 6), coil (there are two types in the aftermarket) distributor (there is a spring kit and a vacuum advance setup for our electronic distributors) and high quality plug wires

I am not certain, but i think that you want to run the 'coldest' spark plug that you can. -someone please confirm this.

An extra large, high flowing, catalytic converter would be beneficial, not sure if it would be necessary.

If you have ethanol fuel, and ethanol free fuel available- it would be good to know which one is better for emissions and use it instead

you might polish your combustion chambers, and partially polish your intake runners, & fully polish your exhaust runners

you could take an ceramic/epoxy coat half of your intake runners (helps especially if you run lean and hot)
, completely coat you exhaust runners, the racers half coat the bottom half of the valves protecting the fuel/air mixture charge while allowing the heat to cool off of the top of the valve stem-that's ALL OUT though.
 
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Kaitsu

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Yeah, so: I have LA 360, with original heads and block, with a Melling 1st step performance cam and Thermo-Quad carb. I´m installing Lean Burn system as it was back in the days, and we have 95 octane ethanol gas and 98 oct. ethanol free gas. I already got my heads in the block and I wouldn´t like to reopen them again:/
What about an air or smog pump? Are those any good as I looked at rockauto and found out they still make them as remans? All they seem to do is cheat the emission tester as they push air into the exhaust gas, am I right? We didn´t use them here in Scandinavia so no one has any opinions on what they do or how they work.
 
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kkritsilas

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Kaitsu:

the air/smog pump was designed to inject air into the exhaust stream to allow any unburnt gasses to completely burn off, and allow any combustion products that would benefit (in terms of emissions) from a supply of nitrogen or oxygen the supply required, thereby ensuring a cleaner exhaust. I suppose you can say it was a way of fooling the emissions testers, but they were factory installed, so it is more like they were used to pass emissions certification; without it, the cars couldn't be sold. It is not really a cheat, as the exhaust at the end of the tailpipe was cleaner, in terms of the actual emissions leaving the car and would do so for the life of the smog pump or life of the car, whichever was shortest.

Like a lot of emissions stuff during that time period, it was a solution to a problem. Not a really good solution, or elegant, but Chrysler wasn't the only one using smog pumps. Similar to lean burn, or the super low rear end ratios, or feedback carbs, etc., it was a short term solution under tough times for all of the car makers.

Kostas
 
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Kaitsu

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Thats one great answer you gave me there. So, installing all the possible emission things are Lean Burn ignition, smog pump, catalysators and EGR if I want to do as clean exhaust gas as possible, using only OEM systems parts and installation?
 

kkritsilas

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THe emissions equipment, Lean Burn, smog pumps, etc. can lead to lower emissions, but have the drawbacks of reduced driveablility, expense, and lower overall performance. Depending on your local laws, you may have to put all of that stuff back, or you may not have to, as long as you can pass the emissions tests without them. The anti-pollution equipment is removed by most for good reason, it isn't just because hot rodders don't like it. Smog pumps take power ro run, Lean Burn systems make for rough running cars, even when factory new. Today, most Lean Burn systems are not running properly, either due to the electronics module itself going bad, or some of the associated parts going bad due to aging. There really isn't anybody who can repair the modules, for example, and also no demand because everybody removed the Lean Burn system anyway. WIthout a fully functional Lean Burs system (which would somewhat play the part of the vacuum and mechanical advance mechanisms) you have a fixed advance (static only) distributor. You can't tap into the vacuum advance port on the carburetor, as there isn't one. So, most people get a carb with a distributor vacuum port, a distributor with both mechanical and vacuum advances, and the standard Mopar Ignition Control Module (pre-1976), ballast resistor, and a coil, and duplicate the pre-Lean Burn carburetor/ignition system. Generally speaking, it works out really well.

As for how clean it runs, you need to keep in mind that the factories doe not individually tune up each and every car though the aseempbly line. They did used to do a basic tune (set basic static timing), and rely on the design to make it work the rest of the way. I don't think they do anything besides start the engine and check for codes on today's cars. A properly tuned up plder car can be made to run fairly cleanly and efficiently if things are looked after properly. Whether or not it meets your local emissions requirements or regulations is really dependent on what your local regulations are. In many places, cars older than 20 years are not tested for emissions, or are only subject to sniffer (exhaut gas analyser in the tail pipe) tests. Other places want to see all of the factory emssions equipment in place; most of the time, this consists of checking to see if the catalytic converter is in place, as the people doing the visual inspection don't know what they are looking at inside the engine compartment. In other places, registering the car as a special interest/collector car means no inspection required (where I live).

Kostas
 

Kaitsu

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We started emission control on gasoline running cars on -78, and when I replace the engine, they make emission testing for annual vehicle tax, which is a sum of car weight, power, and emissions. The weight and power cannot be much affected, but the most important thing here today, the emissions, can be controlled.
 

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({<<I am at work currently so this is not a complete address of your concerns, I might have to break off at some point quickly>>})


As mentioned above, 'Lean Burn was often/usually removed by the dealer and replaced by the electronic distributer (with vacuum advance) on most vehicles because it was unreliable.

Recommend a Comp cams High Energy or extreme energy 252, 256, 262 camshaft. When I find David Vizard's book on economy/emissions I'll relay his info.

I recommend the above mentioned distributor and more research than just asking us and definitely more than 'just going with the lean burn/smog pump' crap that were inadequate/insufficient/unreliable band-aids to begin with.

They have cheapo-maybe they work, fuel additives that are supposed to help with emission checks, and I promise you that running your motor hot and lean with modern catalytic converters will make so you pass with flying colors. You should adjust the carb before and after the emission test.

In modern vehicles, there are O2 sensors before and after the catalytic converters that give you an idea the efficiency of your engine.

A different book says that the converter temperature needs to be brought to about 350 to 500 degrees F to burn off. I am not sure how that works as engine operating temp is 190-210 degrees.

Another consideration is that during engine assembly, sealants, coolants, etc. can flow into the exhaust, coating the O2 sensors and catalyst precious metals in the converter reducing/neutralizing their efficiency. The book says to use exhaust sealant that is 'sensor safe.' Incorrect sealants used on the exhaust manifold/header include: Teflon and silicone as listed in the book.

book: Catalytic converter break-in -improves expected service life and efficiency in regards to the converter matting that holds the substrate in place. A catalytic converter's ceramic brick is wrapped with a matting that insulates it and holds it together. The matting is made from the mineral vermiculite, which is secured by a fiber mat and an organic binder. As the converter heats up during the first use, the fiber mat and binder burn off and the matting actually becomes more loose before it expands to fill the converter cavity to hold the ceramic brick in place. If the proper break-in warm-up is not performed correctly, the ceramic brick can loosen and can rattle inside the converter housing.

Catalytic converter break-in:

start engine but do not rev it
idler the engine and allow it to warm up slowly
after 5 minutes, increase the engine speed to 2,500 rpm
hold at 2,500 rpm for 2 minutes
allow the engine to cool down
road test and verify correct installation :book
 

kkritsilas

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Engine operating temperature is coolant and/or oil temp. (depends on what you choose to use). Exhaust gas temperature is much higher, as you can probably tell just by being near the engine compartment of a car with headers. Catalytic converters all have a "light off" temperature, below which they don't work very well (not enough heat to get the catalytic process working properly). One of the biggest targets in new cars is to get the catalytic converters lit off as fast as possible, which is why they have been moving closer and closer to the exhaust ports. Some cars even have them as part of the exhaust manifolds, or just after the exhaust manifolds. Idea behind that is to get the cats up to working temperature as quickly as possible when the car is started up.

Kostas
 

Kaitsu

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This conversation has really brought me some new info I couldn´t find in the manuals or from wise men of the local bike pub. When I browse the book, it always give info on Federal, Canadian, Export and California models when it comes to emissions. Californian models seem to have the most strict emission control back in the days, and I found out that there were separate microprocessor computer used on the 360 engines. These cars have so many options to choose the right combination, don´t they?
 

greymouser7

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Thinking about your build, with a mild 360 (in order to pass emissions) makes me want to convince you that a 727 is not the transmission that you should be running. If your car already came with a 904 transmission, I also have a 904 that was rebuilt that you could use, instead of hunting down the more elusive 727.

..."The catalytic converter can include the following elements that are 'wash-coated' over a screen brick: aluminum oxide, titanium oxide, silicon dioxide, PLATINUM, PALLADIUM, and/or RHODIUM.
Platinum offers good oxidation characteristics in terms of helping to convert hydro-carbons and carbon monoxide into water vapor and CO2, but not so great at reducing oxides of nitrogen.
Palladium offers good conversion for all three harmful emissions. Rhodium is the most expensive catalytic element (and BEST at harmful exhaust removal) used in a wash-coat material but again, is very expensive."

I am not sure how you can call up manufacturers and find out what element they utilize in their catalytic converters (sold to which countries/areas) but if you find one with the best material, perhaps from a high-end vehicle manufacturer (Mercedes, BMW, etc.) maybe this info might help. Kostas makes a good point, and it sounds like having the catalytic converter bolt to the headers as the very first portion of the exhaust pipe would be the most beneficial.

When you utilize a converter, since they run so hot, place a heat shield between the converter and the floor pan of the vehicle.
 
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Kaitsu

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Yeah, I red about the exhaust part of the shop manual and the converters are located right after where the exhaust pipe makes the first angle towards the end. They seem to have installed a heat shield at the factory when there were converters too.
I, again, browsed Eggbay and there seems to be a lot of cast iron exhaust manifolds. However, they are speaking of "heat risers" and I can´t get a proper translation on what they are. Is it the round thing between the manifold and exhaust pipe where the air intake can have some warm air to the gasoline mix during winter season? That is a must here, so I´d like to get this right the first time.
I´m sorry Grey, I´ve spoken with the Canadian dude about his core 727 and we´re shipping troubles away from closing the deal.
PS. I´m glad I have you guys helping and sharing your know-how with my examination. By the way, I´m only carb, oil pan and intake manifold away from the engine part of my exam, this time I will send you photos, even if it´s pitch dark night!
 

Kaitsu

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I´m talking about we can´t get anyone to freight it, there´s DHL, UPS, FedEx, and we don´t know which one would be best and most reliable. It´s not about shipping estimates buddy, don´t stress about that:)
 

Kaitsu

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Would this manifold be correct for Thermo- Quad? My local scrap yard man said it houses a Thermo- Quad. However, my current intake has like, 4 equally cast holes for the Holley Carb. Which one would be correct since I haven´t seen a thermo- quad carb or the bolt pattern. The guys asking for 100€ so I wouldn´t like to waste it right now and theres a lot of people trying to get their mistakes getting passed forward... The sale includes the coolant neck. For some reason I can´t add the pictures since there are too many characters in the post... The intake has 2 larger and 2 smaller holes on the carburetor seat.
 

greymouser7

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yeah I think it's the right one for that carb

either google thermoquad or look them up on the search engine on forabodiesonly.com/mopar which has 36K people to pool knowledge resources from - Fuel and Air Systems (17 Viewing) - http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/forumdisplay.php?f=58

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=184531

that is a great carb In Accordance With the people on that forum, very tune-able.

the 4 barrel intake is basically what involved into the LD4B ?, the performer intake, etc.

these are good intakes
 
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