Does Borgeson offer a box for Fifth Avenues?

D

Dippy Daddy

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Hey folks,

Maybe I'm missing something, but I went to the Borgeson website today (11-4-25) to see the pricing for a power steering box for my 1986 Chrysler Fifth Avenue. I'd read about them here and the members seemed to like them, but I started to notice all the posts were from years ago. So when I went to the website, and searched for the part, Chrysler did not appear in the drop-down menu. Dodge did, but when I clicked on it, all I got were trucks. Didn't see Diplomats.

So has Borgeson discontinued its power steering box for M-bodies?

Thanks.
 
They do, but they don't have us in their application search, like a lot of companies. You will have to search for an earlier car or look at one of the retailers that carries them, like Bergman auto craft
 
Duke5A said:
This is the kit you want: BAC Steering Box Conversion Kit - Large Sector 73-82 - Bergman Auto Craft

I'm running this on my 5A and Dad has it on his Diplomat. You'll need a high pressure hose, also from Bergman.
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Hey, thanks for the great information. Duke5A, have you seen any drips from the Borgeson steering box since your installation? My Fifth has 190,000 miles, the factory box is leaking, it's not tight anymore, and I'm looking to upgrade. Bergman recommends the steering box cooler -- did you get one? My car's strictly a daily driver, no drag racing or autocrossing, but I put a lot of miles on it. My daily commute's about 70 miles, part city, part interstates. So I want something that'll stand up to a lot of use. Really appreciate your perspective.
 
Dippy Daddy said:
Hey, thanks for the great information. Duke5A, have you seen any drips from the Borgeson steering box since your installation? My Fifth has 190,000 miles, the factory box is leaking, it's not tight anymore, and I'm looking to upgrade. Bergman recommends the steering box cooler -- did you get one? My car's strictly a daily driver, no drag racing or autocrossing, but I put a lot of miles on it. My daily commute's about 70 miles, part city, part interstates. So I want something that'll stand up to a lot of use. Really appreciate your perspective.
Click to expand...

Beside my Dad's car and my own there is another forum member here with it on his coupe. It's an expensive upgrade and usually it's only seen on project cars that get silly amounts of money thrown at them. If your car is strictly an all weather DD then Steer and Gear might be a better cheaper alternative. They're located in Ohio too.

Dad's car has a cooler, but I haven't added one yet. I've got one in the box that will get installed sometime over the winter here. A cheap $35 unit is all you need and it's plumbed into the return side.
 
Don't let the parts listings on websites scare you. Almost all the A B C E F and M body passenger car power steering boxes from 73 to 89 will interchange. Manual boxes will interchange from like the late 60s to 89.
 
Duke5A said:
Beside my Dad's car and my own there is another forum member here with it on his coupe. It's an expensive upgrade and usually it's only seen on project cars that get silly amounts of money thrown at them. If your car is strictly an all weather DD then Steer and Gear might be a better cheaper alternative. They're located in Ohio too.

Dad's car has a cooler, but I haven't added one yet. I've got one in the box that will get installed sometime over the winter here. A cheap $35 unit is all you need and it's plumbed into the return side.
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Thanks again for the informative reply. I have indeed looked at the Steer & Gear options and may try them instead. I can't really do the labor of swapping steering boxes myself, so I also have to find someone in the Cleveland/Akron area to install whatever box I get. A lot will depend on the IRS refund I get in February, frankly. The Borgeson will be a grand or more and Steer & Gear will be about half that. Long-term plans include swapping in a 5.2 Magnum with the factory EFI too. All it takes is money, right? Thanks again for your perspective.
 
Duke5A said:
Beside my Dad's car and my own there is another forum member here with it on his coupe. It's an expensive upgrade and usually it's only seen on project cars that get silly amounts of money thrown at them...
Click to expand...
I have the setup that @Duke5A referenced above.

It was a bit of a peculiar installation in my case b/c I decided to keep my power steering pump with the factory O-ring setup (came to find out in the process that there were multiple options out there), but to Mark's earlier point, if you are willing to stick to what Borgeson shows on their website you should be OK.

Usage wise, here is what I have:
1) I lowered the output pressure on my power steering pump prior to this steering gear change, so that standard 'over assisted' feeling was already partially controlled, now with this box I probably should pump it up a notch to avoid that hard at idle steering wheel feel, but honestly that's not a biggie for me as the car is a summer only thing

2) The box install itself was fine, no real/major issues to report, if anything the problems I had ran into had everything to do with a non-stock setup I have in the engine bay (TTI 1-7/8" tube headers, freaking HOT at all times, so I put on heat shielding over the lines)

3) I do run a cooler (factory one - which also complicated the line routing LOL), but with 4.10 gearing out back and therefore some pretty decent RPMs, the box itself gets hot and I cannot imagine NOT running a cooler

OK, besides all of that...did you look at RockAuto?

I ask because something like Lares 11031 very much looks like the Borgeson gear (it is not though, it is a different part) and it aims to deliver the same result at a lower price point ($440 USD). Worth looking into if you ask me!
 
I have that Lares steering gear box in my car with almost 3000 miles on it and so far no leaks. To this point I'm happy with its performance.
 
I have the Borgeson conversion on my 76. Didn't know I am supposed to run a cooler on it. No issues so far. I found it a nice upgrade.
 
M_Body_Coupe said:
I have the setup that @Duke5A referenced above.

It was a bit of a peculiar installation in my case b/c I decided to keep my power steering pump with the factory O-ring setup (came to find out in the process that there were multiple options out there), but to Mark's earlier point, if you are willing to stick to what Borgeson shows on their website you should be OK.

Usage wise, here is what I have:
1) I lowered the output pressure on my power steering pump prior to this steering gear change, so that standard 'over assisted' feeling was already partially controlled, now with this box I probably should pump it up a notch to avoid that hard at idle steering wheel feel, but honestly that's not a biggie for me as the car is a summer only thing

2) The box install itself was fine, no real/major issues to report, if anything the problems I had ran into had everything to do with a non-stock setup I have in the engine bay (TTI 1-7/8" tube headers, freaking HOT at all times, so I put on heat shielding over the lines)

3) I do run a cooler (factory one - which also complicated the line routing LOL), but with 4.10 gearing out back and therefore some pretty decent RPMs, the box itself gets hot and I cannot imagine NOT running a cooler

OK, besides all of that...did you look at RockAuto?

I ask because something like Lares 11031 very much looks like the Borgeson gear (it is not though, it is a different part) and it aims to deliver the same result at a lower price point ($440 USD). Worth looking into if you ask me!
Click to expand...
Hey, thanks for helping me out with your tips. Regarding the installation, did you have to take off your driver's-side header to install the steering box? I have stock exhaust manifolds and they're pretty bulky, and I'm concerned about snapping off a bolt when I try to take them out. And I still have the stock 7.25 rear end with 2.24 gears, so my 318 is turning about 2,000 RPM at 70 MPH. Don't think I've ever seen 3,000 RPM on the road in this car. It's just an all-weather daily driver. I just looked at the Lares 11031 at Rock Auto and you're right, it's a lot cheaper. But it looks like it has the standard OEM steering ratio, with 3.5 turns lock to lock. I'm interested in the Borgeson box or the Steer & Gear for the improved feel. Thanks.
 
I removed the steering box valve to make it easier to get my power box out so I wouldn't have to try and remove the pitman arm. I wasn't reusing the box anyways. I still have the factory exhaust. I didn't have to remove any of the factory exhaust at all.
 
Dippy Daddy said:
...Regarding the installation, did you have to take off your driver's-side header to install the steering box? I have stock exhaust manifolds and they're pretty bulky, and I'm concerned about snapping off a bolt when I try to take them out...
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Well, I was spoiled by the fact that I had the old engine pulled out and was installing my new W2 408 stroker build...so the engine bay was completely empty: no headers, no plumbing in the way, etc.

So for what it's worth I've attached a few photos of what I started off with (header-driver.jpg) and what that finished install looks like for me (the remaining three jpgs).

Dippy Daddy said:
...I still have the stock 7.25 rear end with 2.24 gears, so my 318 is turning about 2,000 RPM at 70 MPH. Don't think I've ever seen 3,000 RPM on the road in this car...I just looked at the Lares 11031 at Rock Auto and you're right, it's a lot cheaper. But it looks like it has the standard OEM steering ratio, with 3.5 turns lock to lock. I'm interested in the Borgeson box or the Steer & Gear for the improved feel.
Click to expand...

Yeah, got it...I would not worry about the heat either give this setup.

Regarding the turns-to-turns, that is not something you'll change unless you move to a purpose built stuff AND match that up with the correct pitman and idler arms (AFAIK that is).

The Borgeson and Steer&Gear pieces have the same steering ratio, so just moving to those boxes isn't going to give you a different outcome. Having said that, Lares 11031 box claims to have FirmFeel characteristics, but I've never researched this further, so a bit of feeback review across multiple Mopar forums may be in order.

Here is the Lares Product Page in the meantime.

header-driver.jpg


header-driver-borgeson.jpg


header-driver-borgeson2.jpg


header-driver-borgeson3.jpg
 
M Body Coupe, you have the cleanest engine bay I've seen in years! I've never seen those inner-fender access panels polished up like mirrors! I admire your dedication to your coupe -- you must do two hours of detail work for every hour you drive. Alas, my 192,000-mile Fifth Avenue will never even come close, but I still love her. Anyway, your photos are great, and you can see how close the big factory steering box is to the header, and I won't have the luxury of removing my grimy old 318 for this project. The Borgeson gives you a lot more room.

You say the Borgeson and Steer & Gear boxes have the same ratios, but at the Bergman website it clearly says the Borgeson box has a 14:1 ratio. I believe the factory box is 15.7:1. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I thought the quicker ratio is what you're paying for with the pricey Borgeson box.

And thanks for the link to the Lares website. I wish I lived closer to Windsor, ON, I'd love to see your cars.

Many thanks.
 
Dippy Daddy said:
M Body Coupe, you have the cleanest engine bay I've seen in years! I've never seen those inner-fender access panels polished up like mirrors! I admire your dedication to your coupe -- you must do two hours of detail work for every hour you drive.
Click to expand...

My poor excuse for why it has remained that clean is the simple fact that I just don't get to drive it all that much during the rather brief cruising weather we get here.

The Coupe is not a fire & forget ride anymore, not to say at all that it requires a certificate of some sorts to drive it (LOL), but the combo needs a bit of special handling.

Anyways, I do appreciate the compliment regardless!!!

Dippy Daddy said:
...You say the Borgeson and Steer & Gear boxes have the same ratios, but at the Bergman website it clearly says the Borgeson box has a 14:1 ratio. I believe the factory box is 15.7:1. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I thought the quicker ratio is what you're paying for with the pricey Borgeson box...
Click to expand...

I stand corrected. Indeed, looking up the Borgeson specs and comparing to my FSM confirms what you stated above.

My understanding of why these boxes cost more was driven by the fact that these were NEW and not rebuilt, and the specifications they were using were far superior to the FirmFeel specs of yesteryear. Truth be told, I haven't actually seen the internal specs for the Borgeson stuff so I have no way to compare against the factory, but as this conversation got me curious I did email Lares about that other box of theirs, so whatever response I get I'll share here as well.

BTW - If you are in town anytime, just msg me and I'm happy to 'talk Mopar'!!! Heck, c'mon up for the Woodward thing...
 
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