727TF In A '79 LB?

[greyghost]

Howdy Folks! It's been awhile since I posted anything but about a year ago I purchased a 360 off of ebay. The deal included an unattached 727 Torqueflite. Replacing the 318 lean burn in my '79 LeBaron with the 360 is a no-brainer but I'm not sure if the 727 would have enough clearance. I'm aware of crossmember and driveshaft mods but I don't know if the hump will have enough clearance for the 727. Does anybody know if it will fit?

 

[volare 77]

I put a 727 trans and a 340 in my 76 318 904 volare way back when I was a kid. ( I would think the Lebaron would be the same) It fit fine. The only thing I remember having to do was to shorten the driveshaft. No crossmember issues. Also the left side motor mount is slightly different between the 318 and 360. According to my parts book it appears the floor pans are the same between the two.

 

[Oldiron440]

I got a 440/727 in my Volare, no issues.

 

[greyghost]

Thanks for the response "volare 77"! You say no crossmember issues? According to my tape measure I thought I was gonna have to move it back a couple of inches. It's been awhile since I measured it. I'll have to recheck it.

 

[Oldiron440]

No crossmember issues , all stock.

 

[volare 77]

what is the 727 out of? the 727 trans should be all the same length and mounting locations the same. only motorhomes/maybe some trucks used a shorter version of the 727 IIRC.

 

[greyghost]

I'm not sure what the 727 came out of. I know it's quit a bit longer than the 904 that's in there. Besides shortening the driveshaft, I need to change the front yoke because the splines are different. Are there any numbers on it that might tell me what it's out of?

 

[volare 77]

yea, yoke too. 727 trans should be about 3 inches longer. should be some stamped numbers on the pan rail IIRC

 

[Aspen500]

F and M bodies could come with a 727TF from the factory, usually only behind a 360 or Police/Taxi. Anyways, other than the yoke and shorter drivehaft, it's a bolt in.

 

[greyghost]

Thanks for the input fellas. I'll wrestle with the tranny tomorrow and report back with the numbers I find.

 

[XfbodyX]

Pretty much covered already, but you can fit any config of a 727/904/998/999 or 833 manual trans in any fmj car, weather a A/F short tail shaft or a long tail shaft C body 727 and use the oem cross member.

On a manual trans fmj youd have to move the shifter location back to run a E body like trans with the shifter location so far back on the tail shaft but it does then allow a very short throw super comp shifter in a factory looking spot. If you try bigger then a 130 tooth flywheel and aftermarket scatter shield then you run into problems.

Passenger side vin stamp pad, trans info on drivers side pan rail.

Simple yolk and driveshaft changes.

 

[greyghost]

Wow! Hey, thanks for the pictorial assist "XfbodyX"! It's truly appreciated!

 

[BudW]

An A727 was an option for FMJ cars – but I would say that only (I’m guessing) less than 1% came with one. Most went to fleets (police or taxi) or for HD towing package cars. If you wanted car to be built, you could have it special ordered that way.

What is different between the A904/A998/A999 vs. the A727:
- The A727 propeller shaft is exactly 4.01” shorter (I don’t think the 0.01” will make a difference).
- Torque converters (more about this later)
- Cooler lines are bent slightly different. A person can bend them to work, in many cases – but not in all. It is easier to bend A727 lines to fit a A904, than vise-versa.
- Transmission kick down linkage is different at two different locations. Sense the bell housing/torque converter is wider, the mounting location on bell housing for kickdown linkage is offset outwards (towards frame rail) about 3 inches (7.5 mm) – but not measured this so measurement might not be exact. Because of this offset mount, the downwards arm of kickdown linkage is bent differently. A person can modify parts to fit – but honestly, you would be better off going with an aftermarket kickdown cable system and just get rid of the kickdown linkage system.
Note: there are two major styles of factory kickdown linkage systems for V8’s: 1-piece and 3-piece systems. The 1-piece systems don’t matter between transmission type. The 3-piece systems do. All small block FMJ cars came with a 3-piece system. A few FMJ cars, can get a 1-piece system to work, but most cars, the 1-piece system hits the firewall.
- If car is column shifted, the Z-bar bracket on transmission will be different (a lot shorter). A person can make a new Z-bar transmission bracket and get it in the ballpark, but having the correct bracket helps.
- If car is console shifted – make sure the transmission extension has a provision for the bracket to bolt too. If not, a person will need to locate the correct extension (a lot easier to do before transmission is installed into car). About 2/3rds of all A727 transmissions has this provision (that is except for the one you just got – one of the laws written by Murphy).

What is the same:
- Transmission mount and crossmember.
- Starter
- All mounting bolts.

The 360 engine is externally balanced and there is a weight spot welded onto the converter for 360 engines.

If your 360 is going to remain stock (ie: no aftermarket stroker kits or anything) and if your (existing) torque converter does not have a weight welded onto it, then I would highly recommend getting a balanced flexplate (like below) and use a “neutral” balance converter (like what 318’s use).
Here are a couple versions of 360 balancer weights. There are other versions as well – but you will tell that it was added on for a reason.

The recommended 360 balanced flexplate:

One other thing to mention, is the A727 uses the same first gear ratio that A904’s use. The A998 and A999’s uses a lower (much preferred) first gear than the A727 uses. A person can convert a A904 to the A998/A999 first gear set – but that can’t be done to a A727.

Also, the A727 is a larger and heavier unit. That said, it can handle a lot more torque and abuse than the smaller unit can.

My thoughts: if you are going to use a 360 stroker engine and will see quite a bit of horsepower, then the A727 is the way to go. If your 360 will see what a stock 4-bbl engine will see, you might be better off with a A998 or A999 because of the weight and the better first gear ratio.
BudW

 

[BudW]

what is the 727 out of? the 727 trans should be all the same length and mounting locations the same. only motorhomes/maybe some trucks used a shorter version of the 727 IIRC.

All ’66 and newer car, van and 2*4 pickup A727 all have the same dimensions.
Not all car A727’s has a provision on extension housing for the console shifted transmission bracket (one minor point to look for - if you have a console shifted car).

The motor home and 4*4 truck A727's – the output shaft and extension housing are much shorter and therefore not recommended for car usage.
Most of these require different transmission mounts/crossmembers, as well.
BudW

 

[greyghost]

Thanks so much "BudW". That's a lot of good info! The converter for the 727 has weights welded that are similar to the first pic. My flex-plate is a cross shaped piece. I have a friend that owns a transmission shop. I was planning on having him go through it and see if I need any "goodies" done to it while he's in there. My bottom line plan for the 360 is to get 350-400 HP. I don't plan on drag racing the LeBaron. I just want a hot rod that would be able to handle a long trip on the highway. Thanks again for the info!

 

[BudW]

Sounds like a great plan!
Keep us updated on progress. Also take lots of pictures about your experience for others faced with similar issue(s).

More details about the externally balanced converters and such:
The ’72-73 340’s, all 360’s, ’72-78 400’s/440’s, and ’69-71 HP 440’s (which are different from the ’72-78 440’s) are externally balanced – each to a different degree/amount.

Installing a neutral balance converter (all 318’s or older versions of above engines) in a 360 will cause a bad vibration, more so at higher RPMs. Also, a slightly better (or worse) vibration if you install one of the other externally balanced converters – but still a very annoying vibration (enough you will not want to drive the car).

If you have a car that requires an externally balanced converter, take a picture of the weight and perform a Google search – just to make sure it is the correct version, before install. Same thing applies to ANY REPLACEMENT balancer! IT is way easier to double check before installing than to find out about an error, after install. Also, I've seen several converters placed in wrong box, before.


The stock X shaped (or maybe square shaped) flexplates come in two versions (well, actually 4 different versions – the 426 Hemi uses a larger bolt hole (see picture in above post) and the Magnum flexplates has the ring gear welded onto flexplate instead of converter), a 10¾” and 11¾” (low and high stall).

It is best to make sure your existing flexplate matches your converter before transmission install – or a duplication of work will occur to install the correct flexplate (ask me how I know this . . .).

Also, the flexplate to torque converter as well as flexplate to crankshaft bolt pattern are both “clocked” (can only be attached in one position for all bolts to be installed). Installing the flexplate onto the crankshaft is not too difficult for you can rotate the plate until all hole’s line up. The flexplate to converter is a bit more difficult (which needs to be done with transmission already bolted into place).

A few tips here. Non-lockup converters made before ~’76ish have drain plugs. All lockup converters and non-lockup converters made after `’76 (lock-up converters came out in mid-year ’78) do not have drain plugs (which makes looking at a converter and visually telling them apart, hard to do. The drain plug is not compatible with the lockup system sense plug is in the clutch plate piston area (has limited drainage).

Tip number one. Converters with a drain plug – the plug goes opposite of a small hole drilled into the plate (the drain plug is represented by a red circle).

Tip number two: Most converters (not 100% but I’d guess that 93% of converters without a drain plug, has a “V” stamped onto the converter). The “V” is to be matched up with the dot/hole drilled into the flexplate.

Tip number three: Sense the flexplate and converter are hidden from view (after dust shield is installed), what I do before transmission removal, I will take a spray can (any color) and just get a bit on the converter and flexplate. That will guide you during reinstall (a lot easier to find paint than a tiny “V” when under the car). If for some reason you are changing the converter and/or flexplate – then paint won’t help, but the paint has saved me a lot of time over the years – for I’ve removed and replaced these transmissions (way more than hundreds of times).

Tip number four: inspect the flexplate and make sure it is not bent or has any cracks anywhere. Flexplates do flex and any cracks will lead to a flexplate failure (not common but seen it happen).

Tip number five: make sure converter is all the way engaged into front pump, before bolting transmission down. I have seen MANY a person break the front pump, pump gears and/or break the converter when just a bit of time to make sure converter is fully engaged first. It is just needless grief.

BudW

 

[greyghost]

Thanks again Bud, this is quite a mountain of information! Thanks so much for your contribution. I'm in the middle of repairing the rear brakes right now and that's like working on old plumbing if you know what I mean. When I get that back together, I'll take the time to get pictures of the 360 and the 727, torque converter and flex plate. Thanks again!

 

[greyghost]

It's been awhile since I uploaded a photo but I'll give it a shot. These pics are from a year ago right after bringing the 360 and the 727 home. In these pics I've done nothing to them. No cleaning or anything. This is the state they were in when I picked them up. Everything was suspiciously clean. Especially the tops of the heads and inside the valve covers. This was an ebay purchase that happened to be within a 100 miles of Roscoe!

 

[BudW]

My observations:
A cool dolly for the transmission!

The transmission looks like either a used transmission because that someone spent time cleaning & painting, or a transmission shop rebuilt – because the two transmission cooler lines have been cut and crimped. Anyone removing a transmission will typically remove the transmission cooler lines using a ½” and 9/16” end wrenches (or better yet, line wrenches) – so they can reuse.
The neutral safety switch, speedometer adaptor and cooler lines are not painted (from the factory) – but nothing wrong if they did.
Generally, a transmission rebuilder will paint a transmission – but not install bent & crimped cooler lines on it (or might to paint with, then remove).

The transmission extension housing does not have a provision for a console shifter (not sure if that is a concern).

The dipstick tube (painted red) is bent towards the transmission and dipstick handle is bent straight (should have a loop type end). The dipstick and tube are different between A904/998/999 vs. A727. Also, different between /6, small block and big block (where the top bracket transmission engine bolt hole is at. Sense both are bent, I recommend you locate a small block A727/A518 dipstick and tube – eBay can be of help here. What year make or model doesn't matter as long as you get both at same time - and as long as small block A727 or A518.

This transmission has the recommended screw on speedometer gear adaptor – so you will need to either replace with your original clip-on plastic adaptor OR replace your lower speedometer cable to use this adaptor. I recommend using this adaptor because it is easier – especially if transmission ever must come back out again.
You will need to remove both adaptors to get the correct speedometer gear (tooth count) from old and to install in this trans. Note: the speedo gears are different between screw on and clip on adaptors.


I can’t see the harmonic balancer to verify this is a 360 – but have no reason to doubt it.

It does have a “car” oil pan (which you will need).

Looks like a new (or newish) water pump.

I can not tell if the cylinder heads have the A.I.R. ports plugged or if no passageways were drilled to begin with. I do know it was using older exhaust manifolds because of the paint line where the A.I.R. ports are at.

In this case, you can use headers, older exhaust manifolds or even Magnum manifolds without any issues.
You can also use your original exhaust manifolds BUT your A.I.R. system will not work (because ports are plugged or non-existent). This could be a problem if your area performs emissions inspections. If not, then 2 thumbs up.
Be sure to scrape all of that paint off in the area or whatever you exhaust you use, might leak.

It has the 360 Holley 2245 carburetor – which I despise working on.
Unless you have no option but to use it, I highly recommend upgrading to a 4-bbl (any 4-bbl) over using this one – then sell this one on eBay (or similar) for at least a couple bucks (and a whole lot less headaches for you).
The intake is a 360 2-bbl only – but has 0 value. It will make a great door stop or wheel chock. Just don’t get rid of it before transferring any fittings or brackets.
BudW

Edit: I also recommend removing the paint where the transmission attaches to engine at. Sometimes a paint drip (either engine or transmission) can cause alignment issues and/or bolts loosening down the road. A minor but an issue I’ve ran across before.
It can also cause electrical grounding issues (with starter or other items).

 

[greyghost]

Thanks for the input Bud! As far as the trans goes, I'm taking it to a friends transmission shop to have him go through it. I don't know if it came from a re-builder. I'm sticking to a column shift. Honestly, I was after the 360 and the trans was included. A youngster was going to put this into a car, I don't know what kind of car but he decided to go a different route. Meanwhile...his dad wanted this stuff out of his garage so the kid put it on ebay. I followed it on ebay for 8 hours. Nobody else bid on it. I won the bid at $500! I rented a Menards pickup truck and went down to pick the engine and tranny up at his dad's house. His dad had a fixed chain fall hanging from the ceiling. I backed in and he loaded it up. I have more pics of the engine and heads with the valve covers removed but I was thinking that I should do that in a different thread since this thread is about the trans. Oh and by the way, If anybody wants to rent a pickup truck from Menards, be warned...they run on propane! They told me that the range of a full tank of propane was 300 miles. My trip there and back was 200 miles and I was on fumes when I returned it!