brotherGood
Well-Known Member
So, I just tried to get to it from the kick panel..no Bueno. If I pull the bezel and center gauge pod, is it right there?
Bad ignition switch or starter..which is it?
- Thread starter brotherGood
- Start date
The ignition switch is way down low on the (upper side of) steering column. Removing the knee booster will help a lot.
It helps being younger, so you can twist your body just right to get to it.
Some people think it is easier to lower down steering column by removing the two steering column to dash nuts. Some people think it is easier to leave steering column where it belongs.
I like to drop it down some, so I can see what I’m doing, but once you done it once - you will know what to do next time (hopefully there won’t be a next time).
It is not a fun job to do, but if you have done it before, it takes about 1 hour to do.
I could not find removal or replacement procedures anywhere. Below is procedures to adjust the switch after replacement
- Disconnect battery ground cable.
- Place transmission in Park and ignition lock in the lock position.
- If switch was not removed from column, loosen two mounting bolts and insert a lock pin into hole on switch marked lock. If switch was removed from column, pin switch in the lock position, then place switch into rod and rotate 90 degrees over mounting holes. Loosely install mounting bolts. Replacement switches are supplied with locking pins.
- Apply light upward pressure to align rod and switch and hold switch in this position while tightening retaining bolts. Remove locking pin.
- Remove lock pin from switch.
- Reverse procedure to install.
It helps being younger, so you can twist your body just right to get to it.
Some people think it is easier to lower down steering column by removing the two steering column to dash nuts. Some people think it is easier to leave steering column where it belongs.
I like to drop it down some, so I can see what I’m doing, but once you done it once - you will know what to do next time (hopefully there won’t be a next time).
It is not a fun job to do, but if you have done it before, it takes about 1 hour to do.
I could not find removal or replacement procedures anywhere. Below is procedures to adjust the switch after replacement
- Disconnect battery ground cable.
- Place transmission in Park and ignition lock in the lock position.
- If switch was not removed from column, loosen two mounting bolts and insert a lock pin into hole on switch marked lock. If switch was removed from column, pin switch in the lock position, then place switch into rod and rotate 90 degrees over mounting holes. Loosely install mounting bolts. Replacement switches are supplied with locking pins.
- Apply light upward pressure to align rod and switch and hold switch in this position while tightening retaining bolts. Remove locking pin.
- Remove lock pin from switch.
- Reverse procedure to install.
brotherGood
Well-Known Member
Alright..so, I switched the ignition switch out..completely forgot about locking the switch. So, I have the new unit on the column, but can't turn the key cylinder...how do I fix that?
brotherGood
Well-Known Member
Alright..so, I worked a bit more on it this morning and got it to allow me to turn the key. After buttoning everything up, I put the ground cable back on and still has the click. For giggles, I used the jumper wire on the starter relay..I know that's new, and it worked before. And it's not working now.
Could it be the starter?
Could it be the starter?
kkritsilas
Well-Known Member
I have an idea, and it may seem a little weird, but please bear with me.
Is there any way hit the starter with something solid? Something that will slightly jar the starter armature?My old Lincoln Mark VIII had a starter issue at one time, fully charged battery, good battery terminals and cables. Except, all it would do is click. No turn over at all. To the extent that I had it towed to the Lincoln dealership. Service writer told me that the starter was bad when I went to pick up the car. I told him that just an hour before, I had started the car no problem. He said that starters develop "bad spots" or areas on the armature that don't conduct properly. I asked a mechanic friend, and he said that it was true, due to the large amount of current that the starter pulls at initial start up. He said you could sometimes hit the starter hard, and it would sometimes jog the armature enough to allow the starter to spin. I remember my dad doing that a couple of times to his 1966 Chevrolet Biscayne.
If you do this, and the starter spins, then you know you have a bad starter.
Is there any way hit the starter with something solid? Something that will slightly jar the starter armature?My old Lincoln Mark VIII had a starter issue at one time, fully charged battery, good battery terminals and cables. Except, all it would do is click. No turn over at all. To the extent that I had it towed to the Lincoln dealership. Service writer told me that the starter was bad when I went to pick up the car. I told him that just an hour before, I had started the car no problem. He said that starters develop "bad spots" or areas on the armature that don't conduct properly. I asked a mechanic friend, and he said that it was true, due to the large amount of current that the starter pulls at initial start up. He said you could sometimes hit the starter hard, and it would sometimes jog the armature enough to allow the starter to spin. I remember my dad doing that a couple of times to his 1966 Chevrolet Biscayne.
If you do this, and the starter spins, then you know you have a bad starter.
Last edited:
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
FWIW, the starter in my 89 AHB locked up.
Never had this happen before on all my other Mopars and I chased a lot of things before I figured it out.
Never had this happen before on all my other Mopars and I chased a lot of things before I figured it out.
brotherGood
Well-Known Member
What baffled me was the intermittent issue at first, then how it died while driving.
Now I'm stuck with everything back apart because I got it adjusted so I can turn the key, but it doesn't start. Then I take the key out, and when I put it back in, I can't turn the freaking thing anymore.
I know I'll be after a smaller starter once I get my headers next month, but if I can't turn the freaking key..what's it gonna matter?
Yeah, I'm pretty pissed still..lol
Now I'm stuck with everything back apart because I got it adjusted so I can turn the key, but it doesn't start. Then I take the key out, and when I put it back in, I can't turn the freaking thing anymore.
I know I'll be after a smaller starter once I get my headers next month, but if I can't turn the freaking key..what's it gonna matter?
Yeah, I'm pretty pissed still..lol
brotherGood
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I've heard of that actually. I had given that serious thought to be jonest..at least as a way to test the starter.
Justwondering
Well-Known Member
I can add nothing to this discussion except a tractor 'episode'.
Older John Deere - in the field.
Get off tractor and walk to truck for lunch.
Back on tractor and it just clicks.
Back off tractor. Check terminals, touch this and that. tug on things to be sure everything is secure.
Back on tractor. Won't start just clicks.
Back off tractor. Bring truck over. Set up jumper cables.
Back on tractor. Cable lead comes off.
Back off tractor. Adjust cable.
Back on tractor. Just clicks.
Back off tractor. Roll up cables. Move truck out of field.
Walk back to tractor.
Back on tractor. Check everything again. Still clicks.
Back off tractor. Open tool compartment. Get the small sledge. Tap on the starter in several places - gently, but with great heart felt malice (about 100 degrees outside now).
Back on tractor. Starts.
Take tractor out of field back to barn. Shut it off.
Use the sledge to beat the crap out of the tractor weights because I was hot and really, really irritated. No impact on weights but made my forearm sore and somewhat improved my attitude.
Walk back out to the pasture to get the truck.
Basically, the starter was 'worn' in one spot and I shut it off at just that spot. Replaced the starter before I took it back to the field and its been all good since then.
Older John Deere - in the field.
Get off tractor and walk to truck for lunch.
Back on tractor and it just clicks.
Back off tractor. Check terminals, touch this and that. tug on things to be sure everything is secure.
Back on tractor. Won't start just clicks.
Back off tractor. Bring truck over. Set up jumper cables.
Back on tractor. Cable lead comes off.
Back off tractor. Adjust cable.
Back on tractor. Just clicks.
Back off tractor. Roll up cables. Move truck out of field.
Walk back to tractor.
Back on tractor. Check everything again. Still clicks.
Back off tractor. Open tool compartment. Get the small sledge. Tap on the starter in several places - gently, but with great heart felt malice (about 100 degrees outside now).
Back on tractor. Starts.
Take tractor out of field back to barn. Shut it off.
Use the sledge to beat the crap out of the tractor weights because I was hot and really, really irritated. No impact on weights but made my forearm sore and somewhat improved my attitude.
Walk back out to the pasture to get the truck.
Basically, the starter was 'worn' in one spot and I shut it off at just that spot. Replaced the starter before I took it back to the field and its been all good since then.
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
We have used the "give it a whack" method at work to get cars to start vs having to push them in the shop to replace the starter and if it cranks, verifies it is a starter problem,,,,,,,,,,,or if more diag is needed first. Works on in tank fuel pumps too, bang the bottom of the tank with a rubber hammer to get one more start out of it (and verify or not, the pump is bad)
I wonder if not being able to turn the key is actually your lock cylinder. If you can, remove it and see if the lock will turn with the key. The one in my Dakota is worn and does that. I've been turning the key only to "off" and leaving it in the lock, then use the spare key to lock/unlock the door. The tumblers and/or key get worn out and don't move flush with the lock cylinder anymore. Same as if it's the wrong key.
Just an idea...............
I wonder if not being able to turn the key is actually your lock cylinder. If you can, remove it and see if the lock will turn with the key. The one in my Dakota is worn and does that. I've been turning the key only to "off" and leaving it in the lock, then use the spare key to lock/unlock the door. The tumblers and/or key get worn out and don't move flush with the lock cylinder anymore. Same as if it's the wrong key.
Just an idea...............
brotherGood
Well-Known Member
The key worked fine before I switched the switches..that's why I'm thinking I just don't have it adjusted right.
If it's not adjusted right and prevents the key from turning, will that also keep it from cranking? I also tried getting it to crank at the starter relay to no avail.
If it's not adjusted right and prevents the key from turning, will that also keep it from cranking? I also tried getting it to crank at the starter relay to no avail.
kkritsilas
Well-Known Member
The fact that you jumpered the starter relay and still nothing is what prompted my post about giving the starter a whack.
brotherGood
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm fearing the starter is bad
I'm just having a hard time adjusting the ignition switch to allow the key to turn properly now
I'm just having a hard time adjusting the ignition switch to allow the key to turn properly now
brotherGood
Well-Known Member
So, if I do this and the starter still does not spin...then what?
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
Might be a bad question but,,,,,,,,,,are you sure the actuator rod is in the hole in the sliding part of the switch?
What you can try just for s&g, unbolt the switch and try manually operating it with a small screwdriver. If nothing else, it will verify the switch can actually move. It's rare but every so often a new switch will be jammed up and not move. Back in the '90's when Ford had it's big ignition switch recall, we were replacing tons of them. Every once in a while you'd get a bad one that wouldn't move. Those switches are very similar to the Chrysler switches. Might be worth a check just to be sure.
Next, go to the starter and hook up a DVOM or test light to the small terminal on the solenoid (if it hasn't been done already that is). With the key in "start" the light should light or show battery voltage on the DVOM. From previous posts, the positive battery cable is good so if there is voltage at the small terminal in "start", it is the starter that has failed.
One more random thought from the rare but possible files. I've seen corrosion build up between the starter and bell housing, basically creating insulation. When that happens, the starter circuit loses it's path to ground. The ground may be enough to work the solenoid but not a high amperage device like the starter motor.
What you can try just for s&g, unbolt the switch and try manually operating it with a small screwdriver. If nothing else, it will verify the switch can actually move. It's rare but every so often a new switch will be jammed up and not move. Back in the '90's when Ford had it's big ignition switch recall, we were replacing tons of them. Every once in a while you'd get a bad one that wouldn't move. Those switches are very similar to the Chrysler switches. Might be worth a check just to be sure.
Next, go to the starter and hook up a DVOM or test light to the small terminal on the solenoid (if it hasn't been done already that is). With the key in "start" the light should light or show battery voltage on the DVOM. From previous posts, the positive battery cable is good so if there is voltage at the small terminal in "start", it is the starter that has failed.
One more random thought from the rare but possible files. I've seen corrosion build up between the starter and bell housing, basically creating insulation. When that happens, the starter circuit loses it's path to ground. The ground may be enough to work the solenoid but not a high amperage device like the starter motor.
brotherGood
Well-Known Member
The rod is in the hole on the switch..I can hear it moving when the switch is loose in the column. When it's loose, the key turns freely..until I remove the key.
It could be a bad “new” switch.
You can unbolt the switch from column (still plugged in) and:
A - turn key to see if upper part if free.
B - with key removed, grab a hold of unbolted switch and move (downward, I think) and it should move mostly free to crank (but I don’t think it will automatically switch off of “crank” mode). If that part is binding up – then it appears to be the new switch.
C - third possibility is rod connecting two items is bent our out of position somewhere.
BudW
You can unbolt the switch from column (still plugged in) and:
A - turn key to see if upper part if free.
B - with key removed, grab a hold of unbolted switch and move (downward, I think) and it should move mostly free to crank (but I don’t think it will automatically switch off of “crank” mode). If that part is binding up – then it appears to be the new switch.
C - third possibility is rod connecting two items is bent our out of position somewhere.
BudW
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
As long as you don't remove the key it works fine? Is it possible the steering column lock is engaging with pressure on it? The lock plate can push against the side of the lock pin hard enough so the key won't turn from the LOCK position. You probably tried this already but in case not, try rocking the steering wheel back and forth while turning the key.
You still should be able to make it crank by manually working the ignition switch (with it removed from the column) IF the starter is good.
You still should be able to make it crank by manually working the ignition switch (with it removed from the column) IF the starter is good.
brotherGood
Well-Known Member
Alright, kinda sounds like maybe it is bad. When I unbolt it, the key moves nice and free, it's when it's bolted down that's when the issue arises. The switch is a lot tighter to move than the one that came out was..I just figured it was because it was shot.
I'll try to get it to start via the switch next time I get some time to head out there..if it's a bad part..I'll be rather annoyed..lol
I'll try to get it to start via the switch next time I get some time to head out there..if it's a bad part..I'll be rather annoyed..lol
brotherGood
Well-Known Member
Alright, I tore back into this today and now I think it's definitely the starter. I unbolted the ignition switch and tried to manually start it and got nothing. So I meticulously put it back together, checking key movement each time. Finally I got it so that I can use the key like I'm supposed to.
I don't have a test light..how do I test the starter. I heard of a way to do it with a battery charger, but I'm still a bit fuzzy on that.
I don't have a test light..how do I test the starter. I heard of a way to do it with a battery charger, but I'm still a bit fuzzy on that.
