cheap header thoughts?

[Duke5A]

Running a 15 inch rim makes a difference on ride height too. How much difference do the Firm Feel front torsion bars make Duke5A?

Night and day. It was the single largest improvement of every upgrade I've done. To give a baseline the car had this done prior:

• Frame ties
• Five leaf rear springs
• Police anti sway bars front and rear with poly bushings
• Solid K frame isolators
• Bilstein shocks
• Radial T/A tires, 235-60-15 front, 255-60-15 rear
• Completely rebuilt front and rear suspension
• Aluminum headed small block with A/C removed

Car still had a quite a bit of dip in the corners and body roll. Tires would squeal on tight expressway on-ramps at speed.

After the bars the dips and body roll were eliminated and so was the tire squeal. With 15" tires the ride quality was still plenty comfortable.

 

[MBDale]

Night and day. It was the single largest improvement of every upgrade I've done. To give a baseline the car had this done prior:

• Frame ties
• Five leaf rear springs
• Police anti sway bars front and rear with poly bushings
• Solid K frame isolators
• Bilstein shocks
• Radial T/A tires, 235-60-15 front, 255-60-15 rear
• Completely rebuilt front and rear suspension
• Aluminum headed small block with A/C removed

Car still had a quite a bit of dip in the corners and body roll. Tires would squeal on tight expressway on-ramps at speed.

After the bars the dips and body roll were eliminated and so was the tire squeal. With 15" tires the ride quality was still plenty comfortable.

I added 15 inch cop rims and the same tire size as yours for my 1979 Aspen RT. I think I’m going to try the Firm Feel torsion bars with Bilstein shocks, new sway bars.

 

[SixBanger]

Poly bushing is the way to go to go. Notice a lot different when remove the old sway bar set. But the car is not an sport car for sure. But with the original 1" sway bar, some set of new shocks and tighten up the torsion bars, I have to say that it drives and turns quite great for the old and stock-ish car. I should say that the org. Sway bar does it job and also doesn't create a lot understeer. I think if you upgrade the front sway bars, you should also add an rear sway bar.
Are there other company's that build an sell rear sway bars? Other than Firmfeel?

 

[BudW]

Are there other company's that build an sell rear sway bars? Other than Firmfeel?

There were three(?) companies making sway bar kits for our cars (at one time) – but I think all quit making the kits many moons ago, so it you find a new kit, it most likely has been on the shelf for a while.

The other kits typically do not come with any hardware for the front bars. Also, the front bushings (the K-frame attachment bushings) are a bit of an oddball bushing as well. The front sway bar to frame brackets are the weak link on factory sway bar kits to begin with (tend to break at the stud, level with K-frame), so most aftermarket front sway bar kits left many people bitter.

FFI has upgraded frame brackets – which is a plus all by itself.

A factory police front bracket (Left) and factory non-police bracket (right).
Note: the outer diameter of the bushings on both brackets are different (the larger bar (police) also has a smaller outer diameter of the bushing - but that is hard to tell in this picture).

For their bar kits are complete and brackets are made better is, alone, a good reason to get FFI. Availability of finding a bar from anyone else, might be spotty.
BudW

 

[Duke5A]

Those FF front sway bar brackets don't fit the factory bar, only their sway bar. I bought a set to complement the factory cop bar I put in my car and it wouldn't fit properly. After calling them I found the above out and they offered to refund the purchase. I ended up keeping them planning on eventually buying the thicker FF bar anyhow - haven't done it yet.

 

[BudW]

Good to know. Do you have a picture of the FFI brackets?

 

[Opticon77]

Is it these?

 

[Duke5A]

That's them.

Looks like you bought the sway bar too. Post back a before/after thought.

 

[BudW]

I can’t see much detail about the bracket – but it looks a lot stronger than the stock or OEM version of the same bracket.
It looks as if it uses a generic sway bar bushing and outer clamp and if that is true, then you can adapt it to most any size bar with correct size bushing.

This is a blow-up (and flip) of photo Opticon77 posted, above.

OE brackets.

Wow, we got a bit distracted from cheap headers…
BudW

 

[Miradaman]

I’ve got Heddmans on my ‘79 Aspen RT with a 360. I’d recommend using the Fel-Pro performance header gaskets and ARP header bolts. I also want to modify a 3/8 Ratchet wrench to get the drivers side very rear header bolt. It’s tight with a vacuum booster in there.

Better off to leave the back manifold studs in place. They go into a water jacket on the head. If you use bolts, use pipe dope on the back ones.

 

[BudW]

Better off to leave the back manifold studs in place. They go into a water jacket on the head. If you use bolts, use pipe dope on the back ones.

I agree there. The front and back exhaust manifold studs are screwed into the water jacket. Those studs are not recommended to replace anything but another stud – if you need to replace one because of damage or breakage. They also make the job of installing manifolds/headers easier sense there is something to hold the item up, while getting things in place.

If I must remove a stud, I like to run a thread-cleaning tap through them (which is not the same as a thread tap) – to get any traces of sealant removed. I’ve used several methods to seal new studs with (if you have a stud out, always replace with a new stud) – and what works best for me is to use to use a couple of drops of blue (or red) Loctite.
Blue is medium strength and works for me for the exhaust manifold to head studs.
Red is high strength – which is a bit stronger than I like to use, considering the manifold to head fasteners are only 5/16” in diameter (the stud breaks before RED lets go, sometimes). I prefer not use RED on 5/16” or smaller fasteners. Blue has worked fine for me, on small block exhaust studs.

Anytime you remove a small block exhaust manifold/header and while removing the outer nuts and you see (or hear) water leaking – STOP! You will not be able to stop the leak, but you can at least drain coolant from the drain cock (to possibly reuse) instead of having it leak all over the place. Once coolant is drained a bit, then resume your disassembly.

The studs can be found at many hardware stores – but I prefer to get them online (save the hardware store for those last-minute repairs (IMO)).

The factory studs (for FMJ small blocks) are 5/16” by 1¾” long. One side (short side) is coarse thread and other side is fine thread.

There is a cone shaped washer that goes on the end studs.

I like those washers and I save each one I can get my hands on, for they do a great job on allowing exhaust movement when hot and preventing cracks. I hadn’t tried a set on headers – but think they would be excellent for header usage as well. The only areas you need those washers are the ends (front and rear) of exhaust manifolds. The middle four small block manifold holes uses bolts, without washers (which are also not tapped into the water jacket).

I hope this helps.
BudW

 

[MBDale]

Some good tips here BudW. I’m at the stage of the motor going back into my Aspen RT after having it out for a few things. I’m going to try the blue loctite you recommend. Along with Fel-Pro header gaskets.

 

[SixBanger]

Great tips Bud. I had to use two 5/16-24 nuts to get a better locking of the exhaust manifold. So you don't have to give too many tightening torque, but be sure that it doens't get lose anymore.

 

[AJ/FormS]

I use Bud's washer trick on all the flange fasteners as they keep the nuts and bolts torqued for years and years. I have never had to tighten mine since 2004
EDIT: header flange; whenever I can make them fit. And I use Allen-heads. The idea was that Allen heads would be quicker to get the manifold off. It turns out, I have never had to change the gasket either.

 

[BudW]

I had to use two 5/16-24 nuts to get a better locking of the exhaust manifold.

I’ve never had to retorque an Chrysler exhaust manifold nut (or bolt) – so I’m not sure a double nut will help with that.
Now headers, I have had to re-tighten those fasteners several times on customers cars – but I’ve not seen anyone use those cone shaped washers before (on headers) – which is what Chrysler uses for both ends on small blocks (and /6’s, IIRC).

Now with that said about double-nutting the studs, I have used double nuts (or a longer nut) on vehicles before on 4x4’s or other vehicles that is exposed to more water (mud, etc.) than most vehicles do - to prevent rust on the exposed threads.
Not sure if it helps any – but it sounds logical to me.


Big blocks are somewhat similar. They use 6 studs (only studs) per side, but they are 3/8” diameter. Red loctite does work better for those sense 3/8” studs are not as likely to break as 5/16” studs are. Big blocks also use odd nuts for (some of) their exhaust manifolds.
This is a picture the manifold nut set on a ’68-71 C-body 383/440 HP.

You can see the 3 holes the long nuts go into, on this '70 HP manifold.
340 HP Exhaust manifolds use nuts that are similar (but 5/16").

On many of the big blocks, the studs also screw into the cooling jacket – depending on the casting – which is also why, I suspect, they used studs.


Unrelated – anytime you need to remove a stud, there is an official tool to do so:

The unofficial stud removal tool is to use double nuts. Tighten the nuts together (using wrenches) and use an end wrench on the nut closest to head. It may take a bit of torque, but the double-nut version is usually non-destructive.
The official stud removal tool will scar the stud. If stud is to be used for exhaust, I do highly recommend replacing the studs, anyway. They do break and I’ve had to drill too many broken studs out to mess with re-using them.

I’ve not worked on one, yet, but Chrysler is using 8mm studs/bolts on the new HEMI’s – and you must walk on egg shells to keep those things from breaking off, on ya. 8mm is about the same diameter as a 5/16”, but it must be using fasteners from China . . . I guess.
BudW

 

[Oldiron440]

I haven't worked on a late hemi but I have an Ls and a Ford 5.4 exhaust manifolds where the studs have broken causing a leak. The GM studs broke off at the head fun to get out with the head on the motor. The GM bolts are like soft hardware store bolts except they break easyer.

 

[BudW]

I don’t know for sure, but if I was to guess, I would guess the exhaust fasteners used on FMJ cars are Grade 5. I’ve worked with a lot of Grade 8 bolts before – but being they work with a lot of heat (and rust and so forth), I wondered about that. I know broken Grade 8 bolts are “not fun” to drill out – and I’ve done my share of ‘em. The broken Chrysler exhaust fasteners I have drilled out, cut off, etc. haven’t been too bad to extract/work with. On a lot of cars, you can forget trying to remove the exhaust manifold to exhaust pipe bolts – if they have been untouched for decades. The last “many dozen” manifold to pipe bolts I’ve removed, I just got out the Sawzall and removed 'em the “much easier” way.

I know how to tell what grade a bolt is. Some nuts are marked as to what grade, but most (or many) nuts are not marked. I’ve never learned on how to tell what grade a stud is – so hopefully someone knows.
BudW

 

[XfbodyX]

Its all grade 5, for years they have been selling repop resto kits on ebay and the mopar vendor sites.

You can buy one washer, or nut or a full kit.

 

[M_Body_Coupe]

I've always used lock-washers on my headers...a couple initial times when I did not, I had the bolt back out, fall out, gasket blow out and create quite a bit of embarrasing noise (during Woodward cruise of all places...grrh...yeah).