general questions.

[SonOfaTomP]

hello. i have some general light questions related to my 88 Gran Fury.
1. i have a rear sway bar but just the bar. where would be the best place to get the attachments to put it in?
2. what is the most widely accepted, best spark plugs and wires for these cars?
3. anyone know where i can get a carburetor thermometer for a BBD?
4. best way to take a rear bumper off one of these cars. no matter how hard i try the bolts keeping it on are rusted on solid. i tried lots of WD40. i don't have a heat gun
5. what was the Goodyear 215 tires used by police in the 80s? were Eagle RSAs a thing then? are these still sold?
6. my passenger window is hard to roll down and up (crank window car). best fix for this? WD40?
7. anyone got an HVAC controls diagram for a Heat Only non AC 88 Diplomat? hoses fell apart behind the dash. this seems to happen on all of these cars.
8. anyone got a spare crank window drivers side door panel for an M? ideally in red
9. anyone know a good cupholder that fits snuggly and doesn't wobble?
10. my car has this weird attachment on the horn wires. i have no idea what this could be. afaik this car was never in police use, perhaps an auxiliary horn was hooked up by a previous owner a long time ago? my drivers side horn does not work. when trying to put on a new plug to the drivers side one it was a no go. i ideally want to down the road put in a roadrunner meep meep

thanks

 

[Mikes5thAve]

Was your car an airbag car? That's the only thing I can think of that would have a plug up there. They weren't pre wired early for it so an early 88 wouldn't have it.

For the bumper I always unbolt the bracket from the bumper or from the shock. If nothing is undoing you'll need to cut the bolt or heat it, no other choice.

A quick search will tell you if the tires are still sold, I don't think what they came with is available anymore and 15" rims also cut back on availability these days.

Champion spark plugs or whatever you like, no point in fancy platinum ones or anything else like that. Any wire set is ok, use slightly better ones if you're running msd or high performance ignition of some sort.

 

[SonOfaTomP]

Was your car an airbag car? That's the only thing I can think of that would have a plug up there. They weren't pre wired early for it so an early 88 wouldn't have it.

For the bumper I always unbolt the bracket from the bumper or from the shock. If nothing is undoing you'll need to cut the bolt or heat it, no other choice.

A quick search will tell you if the tires are still sold, I don't think what they came with is available anymore and 15" rims also cut back on availability these days.

Champion spark plugs or whatever you like, no point in fancy platinum ones or anything else like that. Any wire set is ok, use slightly better ones if you're running msd or high performance ignition of some sort.

its a non airbag car. its an early 88 car manufactured in late 87.

 

[AMC Diplomat]

thanks

hello. i have some general light questions related to my 88 Gran Fury.
1. i have a rear sway bar but just the bar. where would be the best place to get the attachments to put it in?
The frame brackets? You'd have to hunt down a set or order something from Firm Feel
2. what is the most widely accepted, best spark plugs and wires for these cars?
I second Mikes5thave, champion. They can be found really cheap and in bulk on ebay. Champion RN12YC. You can even find the older made in USA ones cheap if you look long enough
3. anyone know where i can get a carburetor thermometer for a BBD? a choke thermostat?
4. best way to take a rear bumper off one of these cars. no matter how hard i try the bolts keeping it on are rusted on solid. i tried lots of WD40. i don't have a heat gun a mapp gas torch or an induction heater tool
5. what was the Goodyear 215 tires used by police in the 80s? were Eagle RSAs a thing then? are these still sold? 15" tires have a limited selection these days
6. my passenger window is hard to roll down and up (crank window car). best fix for this? WD40? have you checked the little roller in the track below the window? You can replace those
7. anyone got an HVAC controls diagram for a Heat Only non AC 88 Diplomat? hoses fell apart behind the dash. this seems to happen on all of these cars.
8. anyone got a spare crank window drivers side door panel for an M? ideally in red any red one will work, the power ones have a knock out for a crank
9. anyone know a good cupholder that fits snuggly and doesn't wobble? check the measurements first to see if these will fit:

Low Rider Floor Console, Universal Fit - Classic Consoles

Low Rider Floor Console for large cars with bench seats and shifter on steering column. Low profile, storage and two large drink holders.

classicconsoles.com

10. my car has this weird attachment on the horn wires. i have no idea what this could be. afaik this car was never in police use, perhaps an auxiliary horn was hooked up by a previous owner a long time ago? my drivers side horn does not work. when trying to put on a new plug to the drivers side one it was a no go. i ideally want to down the road put in a roadrunner meep meep

 

[SonOfaTomP]

hello. i have some general light questions related to my 88 Gran Fury.
1. i have a rear sway bar but just the bar. where would be the best place to get the attachments to put it in?
The frame brackets? You'd have to hunt down a set or order something from Firm Feel
2. what is the most widely accepted, best spark plugs and wires for these cars?
I second Mikes5thave, champion. They can be found really cheap and in bulk on ebay. Champion RN12YC. You can even find the older made in USA ones cheap if you look long enough
3. anyone know where i can get a carburetor thermometer for a BBD? a choke thermostat?
4. best way to take a rear bumper off one of these cars. no matter how hard i try the bolts keeping it on are rusted on solid. i tried lots of WD40. i don't have a heat gun a mapp gas torch or an induction heater tool
5. what was the Goodyear 215 tires used by police in the 80s? were Eagle RSAs a thing then? are these still sold? 15" tires have a limited selection these days
6. my passenger window is hard to roll down and up (crank window car). best fix for this? WD40? have you checked the little roller in the track below the window? You can replace those
7. anyone got an HVAC controls diagram for a Heat Only non AC 88 Diplomat? hoses fell apart behind the dash. this seems to happen on all of these cars.
8. anyone got a spare crank window drivers side door panel for an M? ideally in red any red one will work, the power ones have a knock out for a crank
9. anyone know a good cupholder that fits snuggly and doesn't wobble? check the measurements first to see if these will fit:

Low Rider Floor Console, Universal Fit - Classic Consoles

Low Rider Floor Console for large cars with bench seats and shifter on steering column. Low profile, storage and two large drink holders.

classicconsoles.com

10. my car has this weird attachment on the horn wires. i have no idea what this could be. afaik this car was never in police use, perhaps an auxiliary horn was hooked up by a previous owner a long time ago? my drivers side horn does not work. when trying to put on a new plug to the drivers side one it was a no go. i ideally want to down the road put in a roadrunner meep meep

thanks. and sorry yes i meant choke thermostat. my car still has the 6280 thermostat on it.

 

[Mikes5thAve]

its a non airbag car. its an early 88 car manufactured in late 87.

88 5th avenues had an optional overhead console with temperature display. I don't think the others had the option. They were only wired for it inside the car if they had the option but they all had the plug behind the grille. Maybe the Dodges and plymouths got the plug too and that's what that is? I can't check my chrysler but I know it's round.

 

[AMC Diplomat]

I forgot about the redneck option for a cupholder. You can find a Buick, Oldsmobile, Cadillac or Ford truck armrest with the cupholder and rig it in place of the existing armrest
This one is out of a Ford

 

[AHBguru]

OEM tires on the AHB Pursuit and AHV Taxi models switched from the 215/70/15 Goodyear Eagle GT to the Eagle GT+4 in mid-'88. A very common "mod" used by police agencies was to run the Ford/Chevy size of 225/70/15 in GT or GT+4. That size is still made in the Eagle ST (possibly GT), but they ain't cheap.

The horn wiring was a common upfitter hack to wire a siren into the horn button. Common, at least, until companies like Whelen offered separate control units with integrated horn control. Those were available by '88, but not everyone used it. Although the horn circuit was integrated with the clockspring on mid-'88-'89 models, horn operation itself was not relevant to the SRS system. Check your horn relay in the fuse panel.

Rear bumper, torch or whizzer. Considering the fuel tank is right there, I'd grab a half-inch drive, bust the heads off, and knock them out. Bolts are cheap.

HVAC - the FSM for any year from 1981 up will show the pin-out for either AC or regular vent. A visit to the boneyard could payoff there, even if the hoses are NG, you can photograph the layout. Really, there wouldn't be much difference between the vacuum controls outside the AC option. The vent controls were manually operated on non-AC cars. You can actually use the non-AC control out of just about anything that was RWD from 1977 upward - F/M/J, B, R, pickups/vans, etc.

Finally, with an early '88, these things were the absolute worst with regards to front suspension issues. Pay close attention to front-end sag, and negative camber. I've seen early '88s that ran out of positive camber adjustment, torsion bar adjustment, and a few that were so bad, they had insufficient adjustment in both areas. One car would lock a front wheel under regular braking. Chrysler did not resolve that until new K-members were stamped at AMC's Milwaukee plant in April/May of 1988.

 

[SonOfaTomP]

The horn wiring was a common upfitter hack to wire a siren into the horn button. Common, at least, until companies like Whelen offered separate control units with integrated horn control. Those were available by '88, but not everyone used it. Although the horn circuit was integrated with the clockspring on mid-'88-'89 models, horn operation itself was not relevant to the SRS system. Check your horn relay in the fuse

Finally, with an early '88, these things were the absolute worst with regards to front suspension issues. Pay close attention to front-end sag, and negative camber. I've seen early '88s that ran out of positive camber adjustment, torsion bar adjustment, and a few that were so bad, they had insufficient adjustment in both areas. One car would lock a front wheel under regular braking. Chrysler did not resolve that until new K-members were stamped at AMC's Milwaukee plant in April/May of 1988.

1. fuse is nothing special. also car is not an AHB package and i'd be very surprised if this thing had a siren. would be cool though. i'm also seeing nothing special like there was something mounted behind the grille long ago. could be, i know the car came from Philadelphia and they used civilian package cars for detectives. that or its that overhead console thing but it is just weird that the plug is so crudely tapped in. doesn't seem stock


2. i've noticed my car is much lower than other Dips i've come across. i have had the wheel lock issue before but has since been fixed. i believe it was a shot brake hose that time though. a mechanic recommended alignment repairs related to camber a while ago but no future mechanics ever brought it up. when i look at the car it doesn't look bad. i have to find that paper. likes to squeak when going over bumps and you need to really brake if you want to make a sharp turn. picture below you can see how low she is. doesn't look raked though. second pic for comparison

 

[AHBguru]

1. fuse is nothing special. also car is not an AHB package and i'd be very surprised if this thing had a siren. would be cool though. i'm also seeing nothing special like there was something mounted behind the grille long ago. could be, i know the car came from Philadelphia and they used civilian package cars for detectives. that or its that overhead console thing but it is just weird that the plug is so crudely tapped in. doesn't seem stock


2. i've noticed my car is much lower than other Dips i've come across. i have had the wheel lock issue before but has since been fixed. i believe it was a shot brake hose that time though. a mechanic recommended alignment repairs related to camber a while ago but no future mechanics ever brought it up. when i look at the car it doesn't look bad. i have to find that paper. likes to squeak when going over bumps and you need to really brake if you want to make a sharp turn. picture below you can see how low she is. doesn't look raked though. second pic for comparison

It's conceivable that the horn circuit was messed with, either for upfitting or as a goof-up somewhere along the way.

Many of the Kenosha cars seem to sit "lower" in appearance, and part of the reason was a slight change to the leaf springs' arch, which was reduced in order to improve handling and ride. However, that amount of front end sag is very common with some '86 and '87 models, and quite common in early '88s. You can measure everything up to determine what the cause(s) might be, but the primary cause is a failed or failing k-member, and/or bent shock towers. There is little you can do? Outside of taking it to a good frame shop and having it straightened and reinforced. Once that is done, and worn parts replaced and the car properly aligned (including correct ride-height), the M-body actually rides and handles far better than any A/B/C/E body.

Start with ride height. Measure from the bottom if the front k-frame bolt to the ground. You need a minimum of 12 inches, both sides, and no more than 1/4 variation side to side. Remember that the right adjusting bolt raise the left side, and vice versa. Next, have your camber and caster measured. It is probable that one or both sides will be at the limit of adjustment for positive camber. If that's the case,.you can try to shim it (search for the TSB), or pull the k-frame and get it repaired. Caster should be equal, and you and add a degree or too more, but it will pull like crazy until you get the negative camber resolved.
Rear springs - M bodies have a pretty long front segment, and that is generally where they will develop a reverse "S" shape at the axle, resulting in improper pinion angle, U-joint wear, and poor ride and handling. Replace them with new 5-leaf springs and bushing.
Finally, another check is to measure the bottom of the pitman and idler arms - they should be equal and parallel to the ground. If not, that's another clue the k-frame is bent and/or cracked.

 

[Mikes5thAve]

You said driver side horn doesn't work, it's a single wire that splits to both horns behind the grille so it should be easy to figure thst one out, it's usually a horn gone bad.

Sitting low is usually from worn out saggy springs in the back and torsion bars that need adjusting or have been purposely set low to the the raked look or match the back.

 

[AHBguru]

You said driver side horn doesn't work, it's a single wire that splits to both horns behind the grille so it should be easy to figure thst one out, it's usually a horn gone bad.

Sitting low is usually from worn out saggy springs in the back and torsion bars that need adjusting or have been purposely set low to the the raked look or match the back.

Agreed, and with regard to the front end, that's why the ride height/caster/camber/steering arm measurements are so critical. If there is still adjustment available, and it repeatedly sags, that's a clear indication of a k-member that's in trouble.

Then again, not every early '88 did fail that way, and too many chowderheads seem to get their paws on the m-bodies, and spend lots of time and money trying to turn them into hotrods, and that never works. Measure it all up, keep track of any front end sag, and proceed accordingly.

 

[Mikes5thAve]

It's always been the earlier years that seemed to have the most k frame problems rarely the 88/89s. But most of it was from abuse.

I don't know how many I've seen or saw discussions of over the years where someone complained about how horrible the suspension was and then you see that their rear springs are shot and in some cases they've added air shocks to compensate for it. One of mine had coil overs on it probably for that reason.

 

[AHBguru]

It's always been the earlier years that seemed to have the most k frame problems rarely the 88/89s. But most of it was from abuse.

I don't know how many I've seen or saw discussions of over the years where someone complained about how horrible the suspension was and then you see that their rear springs are shot and in some cases they've added air shocks to compensate for it. One of mine had coil overs on it probably for that reason.

Well, the problem is that misinformation regarding the k-frame issues is still causing some confusion. I blame the police car books for that, as it was not spelled out all that well.

Regarding the M-bodies: The first TSB was issued in February of 1986. It covered the symptoms, diagnosis, and possible solutions. It was superceded in May of '88. That covered the cars ('82-March '88), laid out specific problems, with specific repairs - including the shim kits, up to replacement k-frames.

When the cars moved to Kenosha, they had to use up certain remaining inventories from Fenton. There was once a question of the steel used. It was possible that it didn't meet spec. Whether or not the stamping dies were bad, that's also a possibility. Those were actually made at A.O. Smith in Milwaukee for AMC/Chrysler. The bodies were stamped at AMC/Milwaukee. They were painted at Kenosha Lakefront, and assembled at Kenosha Main. It was quite a process, and the company messed up.

They knew the k-frames were giving them trouble at least a few years prior to the Kenosha operation. One would think that the transition from Fenton to Kenosha would've been the right time to cure it, but Chrysler being Chrysler ... The bean counters - under pressure from the Iaccoca management(who wanted the M-body gone) probably saw that big pile of k-frames that were already stamped and prepped and figured they could save a few pennies by using those parts up.

Earlier in time, F-bodies also exhibited certain front end issues, but those were not related to later M-body problems. The Windsor cars (1980-83) were good. Fenton cars ('84 -mid '87) got progressively worse each year. Kenosha cars (March of "87 - Dec 21, 1988) were bad up to April of '88. The police car books claimed they were good by 1988. That was false. The book also claimed retail cars were not affected. That was also false. Later in the book, they got it partially correct ('86-'88 cars were the worst), but the fact is, retail cars also suffered from k-frame failure, especially the '87 and '88 Kenosha cars. You can go online and see any number of '87-'88 5th Avenues with that characteristic M-body "squat", tires way in at the top look. I had an '86 Dippy SE with that issue. Typically, for me anyway, it was the right side that messed up first, but some cars had it bad on both sides. The squads did fare worse, of course, particularly city and rural agencies. The key thing to remember is that constant torsion bar sag, negative camber, and unequally steering arm measurements are all  symptoms of a failed or failing k-frame.

I won't even get into the ridiculous mods I've seen those cretins try with these things. It ruins the hobby.

 

[Mikes5thAve]

I wasn't going by the police car books but more what people have actually experienced over the years and what ive had. It's always been the early cars that had problems rarely the later ones, now if it's because it's already been addressed who knows it always ends up being the really abused cars thst have problems.
All the cars I've seen thst didn't sit right was because of lack of alignment and worn out parts. Now I guess the parts you used to be able to buy to correct issues might have also stemmed from a bad K frame and not being able to get within spec but it seems like most people bought those parts because thsts what was easily available whether they needed it or not.

 

[AMC Diplomat]

Well, the problem is that misinformation regarding the k-frame issues is still causing some confusion. I blame the police car books for that, as it was not spelled out all that well.

Regarding the M-bodies: The first TSB was issued in February of 1986. It covered the symptoms, diagnosis, and possible solutions. It was superceded in May of '88. That covered the cars ('82-March '88), laid out specific problems, with specific repairs - including the shim kits, up to replacement k-frames.

When the cars moved to Kenosha, they had to use up certain remaining inventories from Fenton. There was once a question of the steel used. It was possible that it didn't meet spec. Whether or not the stamping dies were bad, that's also a possibility. Those were actually made at A.O. Smith in Milwaukee for AMC/Chrysler. The bodies were stamped at AMC/Milwaukee. They were painted at Kenosha Lakefront, and assembled at Kenosha Main. It was quite a process, and the company messed up.

They knew the k-frames were giving them trouble at least a few years prior to the Kenosha operation. One would think that the transition from Fenton to Kenosha would've been the right time to cure it, but Chrysler being Chrysler ... The bean counters - under pressure from the Iaccoca management(who wanted the M-body gone) probably saw that big pile of k-frames that were already stamped and prepped and figured they could save a few pennies by using those parts up.

Earlier in time, F-bodies also exhibited certain front end issues, but those were not related to later M-body problems. The Windsor cars (1980-83) were good. Fenton cars ('84 -mid '87) got progressively worse each year. Kenosha cars (March of "87 - Dec 21, 1988) were bad up to April of '88. The police car books claimed they were good by 1988. That was false. The book also claimed retail cars were not affected. That was also false. Later in the book, they got it partially correct ('86-'88 cars were the worst), but the fact is, retail cars also suffered from k-frame failure, especially the '87 and '88 Kenosha cars. You can go online and see any number of '87-'88 5th Avenues with that characteristic M-body "squat", tires way in at the top look. I had an '86 Dippy SE with that issue. Typically, for me anyway, it was the right side that messed up first, but some cars had it bad on both sides. The squads did fare worse, of course, particularly city and rural agencies. The key thing to remember is that constant torsion bar sag, negative camber, and unequally steering arm measurements are all  symptoms of a failed or failing k-frame.

I won't even get into the ridiculous mods I've seen those cretins try with these things. It ruins the hobby.

As the owner of a 250,000+ mile previously highly neglected 87 Kenosha car, I can say that is one of the best old cars I've ever seen. It was beat within an inch of it's life, and it still turns over every day and I can drive it hours in any direction. Does it need more work? Absolutely. But for a 37 year old car that was basically abused, I'd say it's in great shape

 

[SonOfaTomP]

You said driver side horn doesn't work, it's a single wire that splits to both horns behind the grille so it should be easy to figure thst one out, it's usually a horn gone bad.

tried this. putting a new horn on the drivers side. then the old connector for the drivers side fell off.... tied wiring in a new one. and the whole thing died. i actually had to splice connect it back to the passenger side to get it to work again. i don't think the drivers side ever worked or if it ever did it was always very weak even after replacing it before the drivers side connector fell off

 

[SonOfaTomP]

luckily all these bolts actually needed was a lot of WD40 and a good torq wrench. finally got this bumper off.

do yall think i should put the Bush 88 sticker on the new bumper? i guess it'd cover up that scuff mark

 

[AMC Diplomat]

Did you use a torque wrench to remove the bumper instead of a breaker bar?

 

[SonOfaTomP]

Did you use a torque wrench to remove the bumper instead of a breaker bar?

yes. i just didn't have one yet. this thing will definitely become one of my main stays now