Bruce, what year Magnum engine did you get?
I can find out those pressures for you.
I can find out those pressures for you.
I Hate My Power Steering!
- Thread starter Bruceynz
- Start date
Yeah, I'm pretty spoiled here. Lots of speed part shops where I can just walk in and buy it off the shelf. Macnini's in driving distance for me.
It's a lot to swallow, but if you want bolt-in, modern feeling steering then this is the only way.
Bruceynz
Well-Known Member
I have taking a photo and revesred the colors to make it easier to see, is it 2000? 5 30 2000 6 or is this the wrong number, got off passenger side block, I think this is more a part number, hard to see with headers and engine in car
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Bruceynz
Well-Known Member
So what do I need to put it in, coupler and steering gear?? Any idea how much they weigh? USPS do a flat rate 20lbs box to NZ for $120USD but since coivd USPS have stopped shipping to NZ
Bruceynz
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This might be better 01 6 00??
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The number stamped on Left front side of block, under the cylinder head would be a bit more useful, like this number:
But - I think I have enough data to help with pressures.
In '83, the factory P/S pressures are:
225 (with A/C) - 1,000-1,100 PSI (69-76 Bars)
Everything else (FMJ) - 900-1,000 PSI (62-69 Bars)
'00 Dodge pickup 360:
1.400-1,500 PSI (96-103 Bar)
Now, some of the older /6's had lower P/S pressure than V8's had which a lot of people look for because, to most people, the P/S is over assisted. I agree, the P/S pressures on all FMJ's are over assisted (too much pressure).
The good news is all FMJ's use Saginaw P/S pumps - so the pressure regulator is (almost) the same for all of cars. The first couple of years of P/S pumps are SAE (not Metric) and used an O-ring on the pressure hose to pump fitting. The pump pressure regulator sits just behind pump pressure hose fitting.
After the first couple of years, Chrysler went to a Metric Saginaw pump. The bolts that attach the brackets are Metric and P/S hoses now uses a flare fitting instead of an O-ring. The brackets, pulleys and the can are the same. The first few years, the Metric pumps have the word "Metric" cast into the pump housing, just behind the pulley (so you can't easily see it with pulley attached) but later years said nothing.
The pump pressure hose fitting can be interchanged between the O-ring and the flare fitting designs (if one wanted to).
The pressure regulator looks like (white arrow, above):
This picture shows the can off, but regulator can be accessed with with pump on car and fitting removed (top picture).
Note: you will experience fluid loss when you remove the hose and/or fitting - so have a catch can (or something) ready).
Note: use of a small magnet might be needed to pull the regulator out of the body. Sometimes pushing it in will allow it to pop out (via internal spring pushing back).
The regulator taken apart. Here you can see the shims used and/or pressure release spring used to alter your P/S pump pressure. There are two springs, The big one on middle picture (which sometimes will push the regulator out when fitting is removed) and the smaller spring inside of the regulator (last picture).
There is plenty of websites talking about increasing or decreasing the P/S pressure on the Saginaw pump - so a person can adjust the pump pressure to something of your liking. Both of my cars, the pressure setting is too high. I can drive with one finger, if I wanted to. I like to have a bit less pressure so I can feel the road better. The pump on my '97 Dodge pickup is the same way - too much pressure - but it also powers the hydrobooster (power brakes) - so hesitant to play with it. That said, this is on my long "to do" list.
Now, with that said, this doesn't address the slop in the gear but will make car drive more like a modern car no matter which gear route you take. I agree with @Aspen500, these gears can be rebuilt using mostly hand tools - but it is not a fun thing to do (once, and won't do it again).
I have a FFI rebuilt gear (Stage 2...I think) in my garage, ready to install (rebuilt 5 years ago, still another thing I've not gotten around to, yet) - but I have convinced myself to go with the Borgeson gear for my next car. That said, I might might be persuaded to sell it in a manor that might be helpful for you cost wise (...maybe, I'm not sure how that might work, or even if helpful).
BudW
So what do I need to put it in, coupler and steering gear?? Any idea how much they weigh? USPS do a flat rate 20lbs box to NZ for $120USD but since coivd USPS have stopped shipping to NZ
The box and steering shaft coupler at a minimum. If you look at Bergman Autocraft they have a coupler that you can use that doesn't involve modifying the steering shaft. The rest can be done yourself if you want, or Bergman also sells all the fittings and hoses you need. I opted to plumb it myself using PTFE braided lines. The box itself the ports are 16mm inverted flare. Used some adapters to go from that to -6AN. Used another adapter to convert the pump port also to -6AN.
If you want to make your own pressure hose it has to be PTFE and the associated adapters. Regular braided hose won't stand up to the pressure involved.
Bruceynz
Well-Known Member
Looks like max PSI for the Borgeson is 1450psi, magnums pump maybe a bit to higher pressure, see below
800127 Installation Drawing
Input Shaft: 11/16"-36 Spline
Pitman Shaft: 1-1/4" Mopar with 32 Splines and 4 Master Splines
Pressure Port: 16mm X 1.5 Flare (Located closest to engine)
Return Port: 16mm X 1.5 Flare (Located closest to input shaft)
Maximum Pressure: 1450 PSI Maximum Operating Pressure, 1100-1250 Optimal
Flow Rate: 2.0-2.5 GPM Flow Rate Recommended
Bruceynz
Well-Known Member
ok lets take a look at this diagram, the oil comes in and is directed to the left or right hand chambers, so you turn the wheel to the left and pushes the steering column back a little bit some how controlling that pivot lever thing to direct the oil to the left chamber to assist, and this is the reason why you have free play, the gear needs free play to work the oil control?
AJ/FormS
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is that with the engine running? I'd say that is pretty normal for a Mopar box/maybe better than normal. And you know why it's like that? It's built that way for a reason, so that when traveling in a straightline(more or less)down the road at speed, she is LESS sensitive to steering inputs, and thus you don't accidentally end up upside down in a cornfield. Forget about it; it totally doesn't matter.
If your car wanders; fix the alignment; don't blame it on the meager freeplay.
And BTW; in your zeal to eliminate the freeplay, there is a very good chance that you may have over-tightened your sector shaft adjustment. This will tend to make the steering stick "on-center", and your car will seem to wander worse. What is happening is that the sticksion is causing your control valve to call for boost when none is required. If you seem to be chasing your car from one side of the road to the other, just back off the adjustment. If it still does it, I recommend to go back to the alignment shop; any unusual resistance in the steering system, the Ball-Joints, and or deviation from stock in the front wheel diameter, and/or wheel offset, will cause the control valve to call for boost.
Finally; pop the hood and with the engine off, manually rotate the steering shaft at the coupler, just a few degrees. Notice that the coupler climbs toward the firewall as soon as, or nearly as soon as, you futz with it. This is normal, and has to be there, so the control valve can call for boost. Your coupler is designed to absorb this motion. If your steering column is jammed to the bottom, it will prevent this motion, and then you guessed it, the control valve will NOT be able to call for boost.
Double finally;
when all else fails, you can turn the boost down right at the pump. The thing is, when you do that, you will probably lose the ability to do fast left/right/left/right maneuvers like parking-lot figure eights. It really really sucks when ya wanna change directions and the dang pump goes on lunch-break.. It sucks even more when your friends are watching. And if you get your thumbs slammed in the spokes of the steering wheel, during the pump's shenanigans; well that just adds more insult to the experience.
Triple finally, install a 12 or 13 inch steering wheel with a thick foam rim. The steering ratio isn't any faster, but the trip around the circle sure is, and you can do it with open palms and never smash your fingers ever again; but............ you better still have some decent boost available, lol.
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x2 on what AJ/Forms said.
I was in the same situation as you Bruce. The steering feel was terrible and I considered going the Borgeson or FF route.
With shipping costs and import taxes (25%) the conversion would cost me more than a third of the value of the Aspen at the time so I decided to try all the other stuff to improve it.
First I renewed the steering linkage and fixed som serious play in the coupler - made it a little bit better maybe, but not satisfied.
Then I did a complete front end rebuild and played a lot with different alignment numbers - now I was getting somewhere.
Landed on this setup:
Caster +4.5/+4.5
camber -0.5/-0.7
2-3 mm toe in.
I did try to adjust the sector shaft play before all of this, but later on I got power steering fluid leaking through the treads of the adjusting bolt.
When I backed out the bolt to get some tread sealant on it I lost count of my previous adjustment, so I had to do it from scratch again. I really took my time and adjusted it in small steps until I was happy with it.
I guess I was lucky and found the sweet spot(s) on both the alignment and steering box adjustment.
I must add my car is a sunny day cruiser only and I never push it much through the corners, but I'm quite happy with how the old Aspen steers now. Of course it's not a rack and pinion setup, but what should you expect...
Actually I think it feels better than the 80's GM cars I had many years ago when I was young and stupid.
I was in the same situation as you Bruce. The steering feel was terrible and I considered going the Borgeson or FF route.
With shipping costs and import taxes (25%) the conversion would cost me more than a third of the value of the Aspen at the time
so I decided to try all the other stuff to improve it.First I renewed the steering linkage and fixed som serious play in the coupler - made it a little bit better maybe, but not satisfied.
Then I did a complete front end rebuild and played a lot with different alignment numbers - now I was getting somewhere.
Landed on this setup:
Caster +4.5/+4.5
camber -0.5/-0.7
2-3 mm toe in.
I did try to adjust the sector shaft play before all of this, but later on I got power steering fluid leaking through the treads of the adjusting bolt.
When I backed out the bolt to get some tread sealant on it I lost count of my previous adjustment, so I had to do it from scratch again. I really took my time and adjusted it in small steps until I was happy with it.
I guess I was lucky and found the sweet spot(s) on both the alignment and steering box adjustment.
I must add my car is a sunny day cruiser only and I never push it much through the corners, but I'm quite happy with how the old Aspen steers now. Of course it's not a rack and pinion setup, but what should you expect...
Actually I think it feels better than the 80's GM cars I had many years ago when I was young and stupid.
Old picture there, all current boxes are a one piece welded casting. You can see it in the standalone picture on our website here: P/S Conversion 62-72 Mopar 1-1/8" Sector Shaft I know NZ can be strict, FWIW we have never had a weld failure on any of our welded boxes, we switched to a casting to alleviate some welding time as it was taking around 45min to weld a box.
Bruceynz
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info, far out you have no idea the cost and time involved getting a car on the road in NZ, if you increase the power by 20% the car is then illegal and needs a further $500 spent to get an engineers report done to say its ok, on our old bangers a cam, intake, headers could see us increase by 20%. I would love a Borgeson Steering gear!!! They sound really good! Are you able to tell me how much free play if any a Boregson would have in center position? (its not like I am likely to find one locally to try for myself, as USA left hand drive cars are not common here)
Thanks
Bruce
Our steering gears have as close to no play as you will find, the only play is the twist in the torsion bar required to actuate the valve in the box. This happens at around 1/8" off center on the steering wheel.
AJ/FormS
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Wow that's a pretty sensitive bar.
It's basically rack and pinion in terms of road feel. Made a night and day difference in how the car drives.
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
That sucks with the regulations there. In this country there's nothing even close to what you guys have to put up with. Some states have inspections and some states or regional areas have emission testing but that's more or less. it. Wisconsin (where I live) has no inspections or emission testing, aside from the southeast corner near Milwaukee, Kenosha and Racine. Commercial trucks over 10,000 lbs (I think it's 10,000) require yearly DOT inspections however. Up here in north central WI, pretty much do whatever you want to a vehicle as long as it's road legal as far as lights, wipers, tires not sticking out or any scoop, tunnel ram, blower, etc more than 3" above the hood (obstructed vision). Even then, it'd have to be really non-road legal to get pulled over by anyone other than State Patrol. As long as the current administration is removed in 2022 and 2024 before they can totally f*** everything up, it should stay the same way for a long time.
Let's Go Brandon.
Bruceynz
Well-Known Member
I drove a right had drive 2014 Jeep Wrangler at work once, thought this drives quite good, thought it must of had rack and pinion, slid under it and it had a steering gear, so I know steering gears can go very well!
chmirada
Well-Known Member
Wow , if you are going through all this mess have you heard of a company called Steer N Gear? Check out their catalog. I'm not advertising for them I have a stage 2 gear but wish I went all the way with the firmest gear. It's a tad better than an AHB steering box. I'm quite satisfied with it. Chrysler Online Catalog | steerandgear
Bruceynz
Well-Known Member
The design of the steering gear means it has to have free play, the Boregson has a torsion rod that turns to control the fluid flow, Borgeson have said this happens around 1/8" I am not sure the Chrysler design could achieve this. If the balls were all the best fit in the nut, the sector shaft was adjusted and had bearings in fitted so it didn't move sideways before it turned then what is the free play in the wheel in the straight ahead position?
