Possible engine build-up

8v-of-fury

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So why does an engine with good compression, great heads, good bore/stroke and fair displacement size only have 140hp lol. weeeeak. Guess the tiny single exhaust with 3 cats is likely what is killing it the most eh?

I think I will try and see about picking up another set of 302's and not mess with the magnums. Only reason I say that, is because of all the extra screwing around to not grab THAT much more power out of it. It would seem adding larger valves to the 302's with dremel porting (or paying for it) would likely be a better choice. This would still leave me with my 9:1 and good flow.

302's with 1.88/1.60, I have a performer/850 Thermoquad, a good bumpstick and then either just a better exhaust manifolds back or headers likely through a larger single exhaust so I dont have to move the tank. I understand it will never really be fast with the 904's gearing and 2.22's... but to have like ~325-350hp would be nice.
 

brotherGood

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Magnums are arguably the best small block head from the factory. You can get a crosswind intake (I've heard their quality is much better as of late) for around 170 new. I have my PN for pushrods, gaskets (thinner) and lifters..all of those you'll be buying new no matter what head. The money your saving by being able to buy a used LA intake, your losing by having to do head work to catch the magnum.

It's your build, but I'm just pointing out that the argument for Magnums being a lot of work and more expensive is slightly invalid.
 

8v-of-fury

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I would only need the new push rods and lifters if going to magnum. My current rods and lifters would be reused if I stay with 302's. I already have an LA 4v aluminum intake/carb on the engine ;) Not arguing, just voicing :).

I feel you on the Magnums being the best, but at the risk of sounding cheap, how much better bang for buck are they?
 

6thGenImperial

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140hp is from that barely bumpy stock cam, tiny carb, and choked exhaust. Just the stock 302's with a good cam, nice induction, and open exhaust (as you alluded to) has been shown to add 100hp.
 

brotherGood

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I would only need the new push rods and lifters if going to magnum. My current rods and lifters would be reused if I stay with 302's. I already have an LA 4v aluminum intake/carb on the engine ;) Not arguing, just voicing :).

I feel you on the Magnums being the best, but at the risk of sounding cheap, how much better bang for buck are they?

I understand you're not arguing..that's the beauty of a well functioning forum. Debate for knowledge kind of deal.

Anywho...my AHB ran mid 18s from the factory. With dual exhaust, magnum heads, Summit 6900 cam (nothing too serious), and 2.94 gears..I'm estimated at getting to bottom 14s to high 13s. This coming from my source..the guy who had this exact combo on his car, only with 2.76 gears. He was around 14.10s. I haven't run it yet because we've been dealing with brake issues, tuning, and now starting issues. But as far as seat of the pants feel goes, with high rpm miss, it gets to 85 quicker than anything I've driven. Once it's tuned, I'm on the hunt for gears and SG.
 

kkritsilas

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I think the Magnum 5.2 (ie. 318) was rated at 230 HP stock, the 5.9 was 260-270. That is with the typical truck single exhaust. You can probably get another 20-30 HP with a good intake, headers and dual exhaust setup, maybe even more. That is compared to the early 1980s LA 318, which was rated at 140HP. Combination of improved flow, higher compression, bigger valves, and a better cam with better rocker arm ratio. Most of that is part of the Magnum heads (all except the cam, the rest was either a goal or byproduct of the Magnum heads)
 
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8v-of-fury

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Thanks fellas! really appreciate the thoughts.

I have read that I can maybe have the magnums drilled for LA intake? How's about the exhaust manifolds? They will bolt and seal to the head?

I have also read that possibly the Magnum lifters/rods can be reused when switching to the LA block. Just adding the correct type of oiling lifters/rods will make oil go through the push rods? Interesting. I have the whole engine so I can grab parts. Doing a full on magnum swap isn't really in the books for me at this time. I will be taking heads and lifters/rods out before the scrapping whether or not I use them eh.

So many conflicting articles when the term "LA" covers 30 years of engines, and is almost never referring to the later LA ones.. lololol
 

brotherGood

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Yeah, exhaust manifolds bolt right up. I've got my factory manifolds mounted on my magnum heads.
 

8v-of-fury

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Cam choice?

I would like a working RPM of idle to basically.. no more than 5000 absolute tops. There won't be any need to spin it that high in this application. It will be a street demon, never raced. What would get me in the 300-350hp area?

302 heads

I have seen a claim of the stock 302's being able to support good power in their stock form, but gasket matched. I could run a thinner head gasket to bring that 9.1 up a little bit if desired? I am only after 300-350hp, so I am unsure if the added cost/work is worth the magnums. For all out, I get it they are best. I have just read many many articles or threads saying the 302's can come pretty damn close om their own. After all, the 302 valve sizes arent THAT much smaller than the magnums. If the magnum can support 400hp stock the 302 should handle 300? lolol
 

6thGenImperial

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The 302's are great, but in stock form you're not going to see much more than your average open chamber 318 head, which are GREAT for lower rpm torque. Can't remember if I posted this link.
318 Long Block Bolt Ons - Tech Articles - Mopar Muscle Magazine
Show 282HP at 5,000rpm/340 lbs torque at 3600rpm, with little more than a cam and 4V with open exhaust. So yeah, 302's with a little cleanup port work would snag 300HP. And yes, a thin head gasket would net a little more CR, but you'd do better not sweating that little bit of CR and instead, taking advantage of NOT increasing it. It's been shown repeatedly that lower CR with more ignition advance consistently delivers more usable power "under the curve" than higher CR with a hobbled ignition curve. This is an issue, particularly when octane/gas quality comes into focus. You wanna run premium? Go for all the CR you can get, but what do you do if they're out of premium, or money is at issue? Soon as a high CR engine starts knockin' you pull back the ignition timing, and it can't get out of it's own way. A lower CR with more ignition will run off and leave the knocker high CR machine, not to mention getting better mileage. More low rpm torque is the ticket. It's all pretty relative. I mean, we are talking about what, maybe a quarter point CR? How much HP do you think that's gonna generate? It's just enough though, to make you roll back your initial timing a degree or two over what you'd be able to run at the lower CR. Again, minor, but why go to the trouble and added expense of thin head gaskets for that?
 

6thGenImperial

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A couple points on the Magnums. The Magnums flow as well as they do for a couple reasons. Basically, Mopar did what the faithful had been doing for decades. They took the basic 360 design, particularly the fast burn 308's, and refined them even a bit more. The end result of the port work is not unlike what head porting prior designs produced, but with the added benefits of eliminating the dogleg, and reworking the exhaust port floor. Despite having smaller intake valves than the 340X head, there's one detail not so obvious. The Magnums have thinner valve stems than their LA ancestors. That improves flow. Mopar Gurus have been doing that for years on LA heads. Thicker guides with cut down Chevy valves (they had smaller stems, BTW, the Magnum stems share stem size with the 426 Hemi), and extensive port work kept the Mopar LA competitive even when Mopar wasn't involved.
 

6thGenImperial

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I remember reading about a 340 buildup years before the 302/308 arrival. They were actually changing the crank journal sizes to match the Chevy smallblock because of greater availability of aftermarket parts. Overbore to match a more common GM unit on pistons and rings. The pistons were unique, I believe they were Jahn's Pistons. Essentially, they had the quench area in the piston top to fill in the open area in the head, the same area that is now part of the head in the fast burn LA and all Magnum heads. Ingenious, huh? This was late 70's or early 80's....several years before this head design went into production. Wish I still had that magazine, but I was just a kid, and hurricanes have a way of destroying magazine stashes.
 
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6thGenImperial

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Thanks fellas! really appreciate the thoughts.

I have read that I can maybe have the magnums drilled for LA intake? How's about the exhaust manifolds? They will bolt and seal to the head?

I have also read that possibly the Magnum lifters/rods can be reused when switching to the LA block. Just adding the correct type of oiling lifters/rods will make oil go through the push rods? Interesting. I have the whole engine so I can grab parts. Doing a full on magnum swap isn't really in the books for me at this time. I will be taking heads and lifters/rods out before the scrapping whether or not I use them eh.

So many conflicting articles when the term "LA" covers 30 years of engines, and is almost never referring to the later LA ones.. lololol
If you are planning on using Magnum heads on an LA block with a flat tappet cam, NO, you cannot use the Magnum pushrods. You need custom length rods like PN5007477 from Mopar, or Comp Cams 7960 rods.
318 Engine Build - A Parts Book 400HP 318 - Mopar Muscle Magazine
That covers a 318 LA with Magnum head transplant.
 

8v-of-fury

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From that other post Tire-Fryer it would actually seem the best way to achieve such an engine is to have the torque be as high as possible with little regard to the final peak HP number, as that REALLY only matter for racing applications anyhow. Would I ever use the power if it were above 5500, likely not.

It seems like the small valves, small ports thing is actually a better way to make a tire fryer. More time spent at peak torque, means faster acceleration. Add to that, better breathing abilities (intake/exhaust) and then gearing and a slippery TC it should lay it down good.

Going from the stock 88 engine of 140/265, how can I make that torque higher. What really adds to the torque number? the 9.1 SCR and 302 heads seem to be a damn good spot to start with for a torquey street tire burner. Perhaps really the best addition may be a mild cam just to hold the valves open a littttttle longer?

Replacing as little parts as possible, what would you run to make a torquey street engine?

ps. What made the 30 more horsepower on the 4bbl teeners? just the carb itself? or did they have different exhausts too?
 

AJ/FormS

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Well if I had one of these tanks (I still do)lol, and I wanted a bit more get up and go....
Ok first you gotta stop thinking horsepower. Horsepower is a function of rpm,so the more rpm you spin it the more potential for horsepower. But these cars,stuck with 2.2s, seldom see more than what 3500? And probably only in first gear cuz second is good for 65+2735 plus TC slip. Even first only hits around4900 at 65mph.So it wouldn't help you to have 400hp , cuz your rpm will never get to where the horsepower lives.
No, you have to think torque.
And to get lots of it you need a big engine.
Or in this application you can do it with torque multiplication/gears.
This is not to negate anything said above, but there is no good reason to put 5000 rpm parts into a 3500 rpm engine. None.
If you only need first gear torque, you put a bigger engine into it, or you lighten the load for the current engine making it feel bigger than it is.
Ok so 2.2s are great for NVH and fuel mileage. But they turn what could be a lion into a kitty cat. Getting rid of those 2.2s is step one.
So to continue;
If I had one of these tanks, I would put 78% more gear into it and bolt a GearVendor onto the back, which would pull the 78% back out. That's all;period. This calls for 2.94s. My teener would be so blazingly quick that I would not be able to stop giggling.OK so maybe not that quick. But it will feel 2.94/2.2=plus 34% bigger or like it just gained over 100 cubes!There is no other bolt-on mod that I can do to achieve this,short of supercharging it. None!
And when I hit the highway I would just stuff her into o/d and be back to 2.94x.78=2.29s
With 2.94s I will hit 3500 in a hurry, and that will get me 35mph. Second and 3500 hits 62. And here in Canada, I am done.
Now here is the neat thing about the GV; you can use it as a gear-splitter, between each gear. The A999 has ratios of 2.74-1.54-1.00 for splits of 56% and 65%. When you split with the GV,the ratios look like 2.74-2.14-1.54-1.20-1.00-.78od. And the splits are .78-.72-.78-.78-.78. Are you seeing this? 6 usable gears! You can buzz your engine up to where the torque is and keep it there!Of course this will make it even quicker.
But if you just gotta have more, just bolt in a 360, a stocker, and look out! Now you got gears and cubes;a double whammy.
And the starter gear is 2.94x2.74=8.06 none too great. But you know what's coming right? How about sacrificing a little gear up top for a little off-the-line? Ok so Ima thinking 3.55s. This gets a real nice starter of 3.55x2.74=9.73. This is now 60% more than those wiener 2.2s. 60%! Your teener just grew a pair!. And the hiway gear is now .78x3.55=2.77,so cruising at 65 is now about 2236. There is nothing wrong with 2236.......for a cruiser gear in Canada.
Let's go back to the 60%
This will make your current teener feel like it just grew that same %. So lets say your teener can muster 120 ftlbs at stall speed. Then 1.6x 120=192ftlbs. This is a huge improvement, almost like the maximum that current teener can now muster at peak torque!
Looking at it another way, if your tank weighs 4200lbs, Then at the current 120ftlbs, this takes off feeling like 4200/120=35 pounds per ftlb. At the new 192ftlbs, this would feel like 4200/192=21.88lbs/ftlb. I'm not gonna throw any other math at you cuz this is a HUGE improvement! HUGE!
Ok so what's it cost? The last time I checked A GV was 2400USd. and you will need to shorten your driveshaft at around $200.Plus a gear swap.
So how much were you thinking of spending on your current engine? let's see; heads intake carb headers exhaust, a new dizzy, a cam kit, and supporting works, say 2600USd. Ain't it funny how the math works out like that?
Ok but what will you get from your money into the engine? Oh probably a big fat zero. What? Well you traded away some low rpm torque to get some high rpm horsepower. And you are still stuck with the factory TC, And the factory restrictive exhaust,etc. And to top it all off, without an increase in compression ratio, your bottom end actually just got "doughy". Oh boy!
So to get un-doughy, you will need a TC. And to take advantage of the hi-rpm power, you are gonna need a new exhaust system.And of course gears are mandatory, but now you lose your sweet cruiser gears,forever. So add the cost of all that up;another quick $1000. Ok we are burning gas. Hyup there goes fuel economy, right out those fancy new pipes.So depending on your annual mileage, that fancy new engine can burn a pretty big hole in your wallet over the course of time.
Oh yeah, at time of resale, you can take your GV back out. In about a day.But they don't seem to sell very well;such a shame:( Mine is still doing it's thing since 2004 :)

Again,I'd like to reiterate, this is not to negate anything that was said prior. It is just to say what I might do.Well of course I would start with a hi-comp 360,heehee

So think torque, and how to either get more of it, or how to seem to get more of it! Happy hunting!
Ok one more thing; I just remembered the day I swapped 4.10s into my stock 71 teener Demon, pulling the 2.7s out. Can you see me grinning? Can you hear me giggling? Plus 50%.Yeah that was a gooooooood day:) :)
 
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kkritsilas

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I won't be doing this for a while, but the target engine for my Mirada and Cordoba will be a 360 with Engine Quest heads (LA intake bolt pattern), bored as required, with KB 167 equivalent pistons. Cam will be milder (somewhere in the 268-272 duration) than the one in the Hot Rod article, relying on the added cubes of the 360 for added torque. I will not mill the block, and will live with the 9.X:1 compression that the pistons and the Engine Quest heads give. Intake manifold will be the one on my stock 318-4BBL engine. Carb will be a rebuilt TQ, or a Grant Street Demon. ARP bolts everywhere. New bearings everywhere. Resized stock 360 rods. Dual exhaust, long tube headers, probably from Schumacher. Side exit exhausts, ahead of the rear axle so I don't have to deal with the gas tank relocation issue, and to remove the over the axle hump from the exhaust pipes, plus I like the look. Goal is something around 300-320HP, and decent torque (320-350 Ft. Lbs) at street friendly RPMs, that can run on regular pump gas. Alternative is a mild Big Block with just a basic rebuild.

Rear end will be a Sure-Grip, 3.21:1 or 3:55:1 gear ratio (livable with a .69 overdrive of the A518/46RH, even at highway speeds). Transmission will hopefully be an A518/46RH. If not, I would have to bite the bullet and pay for a TCI 6X transmission.
 

AJ/FormS

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Sounds like fun!
But my catalog says 167s are teener pistons. If you go with the 190/191s you can bring the crowns up to the deck, and adjust the Scr/squish to make whatever Dcr that you need for that cam. Ima thinking 10.5scr or a bit more if you get the squish set up right.
I like the side exit pipes, maybe with oval bologna slashed tips?
I'm wondering if a little less cam for those 3.55s........ well I'm sure you've thought it over pretty good.
There was a guy, maybe two, over on FABO that fit up a GM 4-speed automatic. I think it fit in the A-body tunnel pretty good, with just minor cross-member work.
I had a 270/276/110 Hughes cam in my 367 for a couple of years; it was awesome with 3.55s@3650pounds. Pulled hard from right off idle (10.97 starter gear M/T),to 5500 or a bit more. Yeah I shifted that bad-boy at 7200 too, now and then,just like every other cam that was in there.Hughes cams are like the Energizer Bunny; they just keep going and going and going.....lol. But then I haven't had any other brand to compare it to.It was 223@050
That cam still pulled good vacuum at 1550@65mph,(double o/d)
That will be awesome to see the 5th smoking the rear tires!
 
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BudW

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What made the 30 more horsepower on the 4bbl teeners? just the carb itself? or did they have different exhausts too?
There are two different versions of 318 4bbl engines.
The police version got the heads, intake, exhaust, windage tray and camshaft from the 360 (for the most part).
Most of the non-police versions came with a 318 4-bbl intake (small port) and camshaft (a cam version between 318-2 and 360-4) – so not quite the same thing.
A majority of the non-police 318 4bbl engines went to California.
 

AJ/FormS

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So if you (EDIT; or someone/anyone) are thinking that just bolting a 4bbl onto your otherwise stock,teener, will get you 35hp, fugedabowdit.lol. The stock teener 240*cam quits way to early to let that happen.
Now if you slide in a 252* 360-2 cam, things start to happen. This is about 2 sizes bigger, and that moves the power peak up probably 400rpm or so. And more rpm translates to more airflow possible. And the big-port heads help make turning airflow into horsepower. So it's a package deal.
Bolting a smallport 4 barrel intake onto an otherwise stock teener might make 12hp.But adding headers and a free-flowing exhaust, will allow bringing some of those ponies in from a much lower rpm. and the headers might add a couple of their own.At this lower rpm, the added hp will be felt as an increase in torque.For instance; if your teener,so equipped, made just 10 horsepower more at stallspeed of say 2000 rpm, then this formula; Torque x Rpm/5250 = Horsepower, when rearranged spits out an increase of 31.5 ftlbs. That's a lot! Now just try and tune that stock low-compression slug to take the secondaries wide open at 2000 rpm from a dead stop with 2.2s and 4000plus pounds;good luck with that!
But it's fun to think about :)
 
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