What happened

volareandgtcat

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For just about since I got it ...... winter was frustrating ... but as I say , it's not driven daily and 3-5 days separate starts .. just thought gas sitting and draining out was the culprit .. I made a half attempt at adjusting the carb .. it snaps shut but being only at 1 place at a time I don't know what it does while cranking or when it catches then fails .. (does the b/f open a crack, does it cold idle on the top step of choke?) The new plugs n stuff did make an improvement but I think I'm doing something wrong at starting times along with an improperly tuned carb... be it a cold start or warm re-start any tips suggestions would be appreciated.
 

volareandgtcat

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Thanks Aj ... some of the warm restart problem is from my reluctance to press the pedal 1/2 way on starting ... the starter turns so fast and when it catches the belts squeal till it returns to idle .. they're new belts. I hate that noise, and then yes .. I then have to put it to 1/2 or to the floor and I get a longer crank to start. So part of the problem is driver error ..... still like to get the cold carb set up proper and I hope to get the valves checked soon.
 

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There are four daily drivers in my household. Two with carburetors, one fuel injected and one diesel.

Gotta remember to always press the petal down before cranking, on any carbureted vehicles.
It resets the fast idle (if needed) and gives the engine a shot of fuel needed to start, before the carburetor fuel circuits take over.
 

volareandgtcat

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Yup ......... got the restart figured out ... just needs a little press of the pedal, more than what I was doing but less than I thought after a no-start ... cold start is another problem .. but there are threads here that have plenty of info and I still have to check the valve clearances ... and I don't know when that'll happen .. so I'm in research mode.
 

volareandgtcat

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Maybe it's old but I have to resurrect this thread.
After using the proper procedure in starting with a warm engine as discussed earlier, it's all good, but I have a real problem starting a cold engine in the cold. It catches then dies .. then after a long crank it'll catch and go on high idle. In doing research on the site I know I read somewhere that you should get a lot more than 4 squirts of fuel when cold using the throttle (car off) .. after sitting 2 days I got 5 squirts .. then nothing .. waited a couple hrs. and got nothing right from the get go on the 2nd try .. I went out to get the tag #'s from the carb and thought I would try it. (I never ran it the 1st time. Gasket on carb seemed wet when I tried the 1st time also .. I'm guessing I have a leaky carb .. a full rebuild possibly this spring .. for it may not be a daily driver but I do need it. Here are the #'s I got from the tag .. 8286S .. below that was 0590 and after that was 049 in bigger font ... the 8286S was the only match and for a CARTER BBD 2barrel kit ... does this sound right? .the other #'s didn't find matches for anything automotive, what could they be for? ... what more do I need to know? any insights are welcomed. Other that the cold starting it runs great the rest of day. TIA everyone
 

AJ/FormS

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all you need is the 8286S and make,model,engine and year.

Your problem may just be the choke pull-off, and/or the choke actuator element. On the side opposite the cable is a little mechanical device that closes the choke blade when you first touch the gaspedal. The colder it is outside, the harder it slams the valve shut. And the colder it is outside, the more pedal-pumps you hit it with. Now the engine is primed and ready to run.
On that same side of the carb is a little vacuum device also attached with linkage to the choke blade. As soon as the engine fires up,the vacuum comes up, and the device opens the choke blade. The amount of opening is almost critical.There is a spec for it.When the blade is in the right position, the engine will see a rich mixture, which is what the engine needs to continue running. As the engine warms up, the other mechanical device,the choke actuator, gradually retracts and the blade is supposed to eventually hang vertical.
Several things can conspire to make the timing of these events to get out of whack, and then you have issues with staying running, and drive-away.
If the vacuum break is too large, usually the engine will stall shortly after firing up. But with another shot of gas it will start up usually just fine. This cycle could go on several times.
If the vacuum break is too small, usually the engine will run very rough and stall almost immediately. And a restart will be very difficult on account of the engine is flooded.
To unflood the engine the gas pedal must be floored to open the throttle butterfly all the way,(so, the cable must be correctly adjusted and nothing stuck under the pedal like a winter floormat!), and held there while cranking and kept there as the engine struggles to life. As the engine cleans out, the revs will rise, and then you can take your foot off the pedal, before she blows up. There is a little arm on the throttle shaft that is supposed to open the choke blade about a quarter of an inch,against the power of the choke actuator. Yeah, it is adjustable.
Next; the choke actuator is supposed to be automatically retracted as the engine warms up. There are two ways it does this. It sits in a little cup that is warmed by the exhaust gasses. The heat there causes the mechanism to retract. That mechanism may also be electrically assisted to come off even earlier.
And Finally, the underneath of the carb is supposed to be heated by exhaust. Sometimes after many miles this does not happen anymore. The heat there is supposed to warm the carb and make early drive-away possible.This heat passage has a control valve that forces the exhaust to pass under the carb when the engine is cold. As the valve and engine warm up, the exhaust flow may be reduced.
And as a wild card, the fuel level is also almost critical. All the carbs circuits are designed to work best at a specific fuel level, and that includes the choke
Lazy timing, or a faulty distributor can compound any starting issue.

So as you can see your issue falls right into these areas. A new carb kit may not change anything. But the kit comes with an instruction sheet, that will help you make all these adjustments.

But above all, make sure your devices are working, namely; the choke pull-off,the choke actuator,the vacuum advance, and the mechanical advancer.
Now.......Go get 'em!
 
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volareandgtcat

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Thanks AJ ... very informative ...... my problem is isolated to just getting it started ... everything works as usual after it starts .. fast idle then mid idle then drive away without any more stalling or troubles .. it's just getting to be a real bear to start. What it does is catch but let go of the key and it dies ... cranking and pumping the pedal is what it takes. I remember how finicky carbs can be so all my adj. have been very minor .. all I've done is, b/c of the black exhaust when cold I leaned the carb out .. but very little .. I moved the screws from the 1 o'clock to 3 o'clock then took the warm idle down to 900 rpm. I left all choke adj. alone as it did work fine in the other 3 seasons and I know nothing about them .. as you can probably tell all I know now is how to open the hood and get in trouble .. I just don't remember like I used to, like I've forgotten everything from the golden days .. lol
 

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We chasing the wrong animal?
Are you sucking the fuel between the fuel pump and carb at first, dies to lack of fuel because the fuel pump is weak?.
 

volareandgtcat

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We chasing the wrong animal?
Are you sucking the fuel between the fuel pump and carb at first, dies to lack of fuel because the fuel pump is weak?.

Don't know .. it dies as soon as the key is let go of .. sounds like it's catching but dies immediately (like when the ballast res. goes bad) .. I gotta go out in about an hour .. will report back when I get back .. remember now, the carb is empty .. I got 4-5 squirts out of it yesterday then nothing. I thought there should of been more gas in the carb??
 

volareandgtcat

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Ok .. I expected it to be a rough start and it was ... when I got back I rechecked my idle and mixture screws since it was warmed up .. and they're right on .. any more turning of the mixture and it lowered the idle ... idle set right at 900 rpm and hold steady .. it was another concern of mine .. warm idle was about 1200 when I began this .. so I'm back to the hard cold starts ....... I cleaned up what I could see on the cold idle screws and linkages .. now I'm not sure if this counts .. but the rod from the butterfly to the exhaust pot seems to just touch the choke bi-metal, lays right on it .. everything moved freely but i wonder if it could be sticking on that housing when cold? Everthing worked as expected after the start. Anyways I'm gonna loosen the housing and move it ever so slightly so the rod clears, just hope I don't change anything to make things worse. Problem now is I have commitments and may not get to it till the weekend .. good news is I may not need the car till then .. lol
thanks
 

AJ/FormS

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There should be something like 50cc in the bowl, and each full stroke pump might amount to 5 or 6 cc so you are looking at 10 pumps. but there are a couple of things that prevent all of it from being pumped out.
#1 is the shape of the bowls with their rounded bottoms, and,#2 is the fact that as the liquid level drops, the pump looses its ability to pull up fuel,and #3 is the fact that if the throttle is stuck on the fast idle cam, then the pump does not reset to to the bottom of its stroke, and #4 is that the pump may not be adjusted to the bottom of its stroke in the first place.
So if you got 5 or 6 pumps that kindof sounds right to me. If you popped the top off, immediately after the pumping you might have found still 20 or more ccs left in the bowl, that the pump could not or would not, pick up.
Its not like a Holley where the pump reservoir is the lowest part of the bowl.

Wait! what?
900 warm idle? There's something wrong with that right there. I also have a 1980 Volare with a 225/904. It idles at about 600N/550 in gear on the curb idle screw,fully warmed up,with the factory tune.
If you cannot get yours to idle at say a minimum of 650 in Neutral, fully warmed up,with the factory tune, then something is wrong!
First guess is mechanical.
Namely;compression/leakdown,valve adjustment, and cam timing.
Next would be the tune.
Namely; retarded timing,faulty idle air-bleeds,a miss-adjusted metering rod piston and vacuum leaks. Another possibility is an EGR valve stuck open.
You can check the tune first, cuz it might be a little quicker and easier. But if the issue is not there, and you have to work thru the mechanicals after, where you DO find the problem?; then you have to go back and revisit the tune.
 
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volareandgtcat

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Thanks AJ ........ I wonder if that rod is hanging things up? Company showed .. gotta run. Lets see what I can do by the weekend.
 

AJ/FormS

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The rod may well be the source of your issue. It does sound kindof like your choke is not closing .This is easy to prove;
With a fully cold engine, stab the throttle to the floor one time . Then go look. The choke blade should be fully closed, and tightly so.

But if it's not, then you have nailed it! Fix that first and try it for a couple of cold starts.
The choke rod should set the fast idle to the second highest fast-idle cam position, up next to the stop. After the engine starts, and has warmed up for a few seconds to a half a minute or so,then you tap the pedal. The fast idle should fall to a different step, and the engine speed should come down to a reasonable speed. I do not know the specs for those, and even if I did I probably wouldn't aim for them on anything but a new engine.
I could hazzard a guess and set the tapped-down warm-up idle to; in the range of 800 to 1200, at most. It kindof depends on the outside air temperature and the engine oil viscosity at that temperature. It takes a lot of power to move 10W30 through a cold engine at -10F. More at -30F, etc. The warm-up idle speed may need to be increased as the winter gets colder.
It takes less power to move 5W20 through the engine.And so on.
I like the tapped-down idle speed to be as low as possible,yet make the engine happy.
Make sure the carburetor air pre-heat system is working. These carbs are calibrated to run on air of a certain temperature. If the carb sees ambient air temp all the time, you will have issues. Specifically carb-icing,, drive-away and fuel economy.
 
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AJ/FormS

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I should also mention that the fast-idle cam on my Carter SuperSix carb likes to stick on it's center pivot. When it does this, the choke may not come on or may not come on far enough.More often though,the fast-idle will not tap-down.
Periodically I have to lube it and work it a bit roughly to work the corrosion out of it. I use WD40, cuz it is a water dispersant, and has very little actual oil in it. Dirt loves to stick to oil, so don't use an actual oil product.
 

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8286s is the number you are looking for.
That carburetor was built on the 59th day of 1980 (the 0590 number) and it was inspected by inspector 049 before heading out of Carters factory.


The carburetor on my ’77 wagon was a bit wet when I looked at it Monday.
All 6 top screws were loose, I tightened them and tightened the needle/seat and its wet no more.

Note: be sure to ALWAYS loosen the fuel line to needle/seat before tightening the seat to body. Lastly, re-tighten the fuel line to needle/seat – using both a ½” and 9/16” end wrench both times with fuel line.
BudW
 

volareandgtcat

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Thanks BudW ... good to know that stuff .... AJ/ fast idle does tend to stick .. used graphite spray on it ... before I read your post .. still gotta get out there and adjust the long rod, but it shows on the rod where it's touches the housing .. I'll bet that is the trouble .. supposed to warm up next week .. can't get my fingers to work in this cold anymore. Luckily I don't need the car .. just rather drive it tho ... lol
 

volareandgtcat

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AJ/ ... I think we're on to something .. after spraying the center pivot .. the car started much easier .. still stalled but only 1 restart to get it running .. I'll take a closer look and really clean and lube it when I go to adjust the long rod .. and it shows where the rod rubs the housing (shiny) ..... much easier then a re-build.

BudW ..... those top screws .. were they straight head?? I have straight head screws and found it odd?? I only checked the front 2 were the wet is .. they were tight tho .. will check the rest when I get under the hood next.
 

AJ/FormS

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If you are talking about the down-link from the choke blade to the fast-idle cam; this guy must not rub on anything and the ends must be free/loose in its pivots,else it will hang up and the blade will not open properly, and the fast-idle cam will not rotate to off.
On mine I zip-tied a long screw to that down-link to make it heavier; it doesn't stick anymore!It seems that the slightest bit of corrosion in that apparatus and the tap-down will not tap down....This is a tap-down issue only,and in my case, the choke element has plenty of power to engage the choke blade and the fast-idle link/cam. It just wouldn't tap down, so I fixed it!
This car sits for weeks and weeks sometimes without being used;it is our back-up car.This area corrodes (oxidizes) up during that period. The extra weight on the down-link solved that tap-down issue.

Just a reminder; the vacuum break adjustment is really critical.
 

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On my ’77 Carter BBD (original to my wagon), the six top screws are flat blade screwdriver screws.

On my (new) Chinese repop Carter BBD, made to ’77 A/T specs, has Philips head screws (currently on my ’86 5th Ave). This one was purchased on eBay about five years ago.

The ‘70’s Carter’s, I have seen both Phillip and flat blade screws (but not mixed) so I guess they used what they had (or cheapest?) on assembly line.
BudW

Edit: I recall that most of Carter screws are flat blade's, with occasional Philips.
 
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volareandgtcat

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Finally ..... after a long absence I finally got back to the problem ... might mention with the humid weather I had other drivability problems and changed the wires .. something I put off when I did the cap and rotor, oh and the cap wasn't seated properly so I adjusted that too, along with drying it out .. after rereading the posts
the choke plate snaps shut .. opens some when turned over, seems quite a bit tho .. I didn't measure but a 1/4 inch seem close.. I adjusted the idle to 900 after finding it at 1100 .. I can lower it some, maybe to 700? the screws on top of the carb weren't loose but did snug up a touch when I checked them .... I sprayed carb cleaner all over looking for vac. leaks and the idle never changed ... I adjusted the housing so it doesn't touch the rod that has the bimetal at 1 end and cleaned it somewhat, wasn't real dirty or rusty .. now the weather has warmed up considerably and I won't have problems till a cold spell comes ...... so I can't tell if I nailed it or not.
thanks for all the help everyone and I'm sure winter isn't over for us yet.
 
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