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volareandgtcat

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Hey all .... I got what might be a dumb question ..... I'm blowing black (what I think is a too rich condition) when starting and am wondering ... would this be fixed by the choke (in the process of adjusting) or is it the carb mix screws that need adjusting? I did lean out the carb a bit when warm and the black on the driveway is smaller .. but I still have black at start up? thanks
 

AJ/FormS

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Well that sucked
I spent an hour typing and the pos computer locked up, and lost it all

Anyway no! The mixture screws are for adjusting the warm engine idle only, and only when the fast-idle cam is NOT engaged.
And the fuel level has to be set first.
And the timing has to be set first, or at least the T-port sync set up.
And the valves need to be properly lashed first.
And the compression needs to be fairly even.
The engine has to be running well when warmed up first, before any choke tuning is tackled.

As to the choke; There are exactly 4 parameters to be adjusted, to tune the choke system, once all the parts are known to be in good working condition.
They are;
1) the closing of the choke blade
2) the vacuum break set by the choke pull-off
3) the fast idle speed on the second highest step
4) the rate of choke blade opening
That's it. that's all you got.
As to #1, the blade has to close all the way, and the colder the ambient, the tighter it should close.
As to #2, the opening has a spec and I'm sorry but I don't remember it. It mighta bin 5/32, measured between the air-horn wall and the edge of the blade with vacuum applied to the device and a slight bit of opening pressure applied to the longer side of the blade.
If the opening is too large 2 things will happen; firstly, the engine will stall almost immediately after starting, but will restart Ok with another rest of the gaspedal, and secondly, at tap-down, the fast idle cam will drop down too far and the engine may struggle to stay running.
If the opening is not large enough two things will happen; Firstly, the engine will stall almost immediately after starting, and will be almost impossible to restart without a clear-flood procedure. Secondly, at tap-down, the fast idle cam may not drop down to the proper step, and the engine will race ,or idle way to fast during the warm up period.
As to #3, this is somewhat arbitrary, but it sets the opening of the transfers, which are your primary fuel delivery system during the warm up period.If the idle speed is too slow, the engine will sputter and perhaps stall. If the speed is too fast, it may flood or puke black smoke.
As to #4), It should take about three minutes to go from full closed to full open on a running engine. The time will vary with the ambient temp.; the colder it is the longer it may take.

An engine warming up on the edge of flooding will take longer to warm up, and it might seem that the choke is not staying on long enough. This is wrong; lean it out.How? Lower the fast idle speed to close up the transfers.But then it wants to stall? Well probably she wants more air; check your PCV system. They like to freeze up in high-humidity areas, or in situations where the car never properly warms up, like short trips. Or check for Icing. Or she may want more timing.This goes back to the beginning. Check the T-port sync first.This may require the timing to be something different than the factory specs.

BTW, the stock slanty should idle around 500 in Drive.And 50 to 100 more in Neutral. 900 in N;something is messed up a lot. 700 is messed up quite a bit. 600 might be OK. Figure out why yours won't go there(start with a vacuum reading, and analysis) ,before you do anything else.
The things to look for have already been mentioned, but here's a recap in the order I would look for them;1)wrong fuel level, 2)Faulty EGR, 3)VALVE LASH, 4)T-Port syc/timing, 5)faulty PCV system, 6)leaking brake booster or plumbing, 7)Leaking HVAC system, 8)Intake manifold Vacuum leaks, 9)uneven or low compression, 10)faulty plug-gaps, 11)convertor, 12)cam-timing.

Like I said, you cannot properly set the choke system until the fully-warm tune is known to be right, and a 900idle (post #30) on a stock slanty is not right.
 
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volareandgtcat

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Thanks AJ/ ....... looks like I have to start at the beginning again .. I was hoping to just tinker with the set up I have, but I'm getting nowhere. ..
this below is my problem
"If the opening is too large 2 things will happen; firstly, the engine will stall almost immediately after starting, but will restart Ok with another rest of the gaspedal, and secondly, at tap-down, the fast idle cam will drop down too far and the engine may struggle to stay running."
Let me clear some of the other things on the list ... I don't mean to drag this out but health, family, weather, and lack of tools conspire to hold me up.
 

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Carburetors do get out of adjustment over time. It is not logical - but it does happen.
The (rubber diaphragm in the) choke pull off does go bad every so often.
The choke thermostat bi-metallic spring seams to, over the years, to become set in a mid-position. Been my experience the choke thermostat lifespan is about 10-20 years and also my experience that a new choke thermostat fixes most cold driveability concerns (but not all of them).

Carbureted cars need a lot more fuel than necessary – until an engine gets “warm”. A lot of that extra fuel does go out the tailpipe and will make that black smoke (especially when car is driven before it warms up).

Fuel injection fixes a lot of cold driveability problems – but one really should let car warm up before driving, sense it can/does cause extra engine wear.
BudW
 

Justwondering

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I was stuck inside all day (beautiful outside day).
My brother went out and put the newly charged battery back in the chrysler.
What was that?
Well it failed miserably when I caught the blanket in the door jamb while trying to cover the front glass so the rock hit wouldn't run when the weather dipped down in the 'teens's.
The interior light was on and depleted the battery.

ANYHOW,
He put the battery back in, pumped the gas, didn't start on the first crank, but did on the 2nd crank.
Life is good.
I'm airmailing you some good luck on your carb issue.
 

volareandgtcat

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Ok .. thanks all ...... found the idle and cold idle specs .. under a bunch of black splatter (I was looking at the wrong tag) .. warm idle 750 cold idle 1600 ..and timing at 12* btdc ...... set the warm idle to just over 700 after resetting the mix screws .. and cold idle at about 1500 .. the car behaves much better at stop lights and signs when warm ..... now to check the timing .. if my memory serves me right .. isn't there a vacuum hose I need to take off and plug?? for the life of me I can't remember which one .. I also narrowed the pull off rod adjustment and now have no cold idle .. gonna have to put that back where it was and maybe widen it a touch ... progress is being made but weather is still a lot warmer than normal and much more humid .. thick fog like. The car is much more well mannered after warming, just getting there is a bear.
 

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Instructions from my ’77 Service Manual.
77 Ignition Timing Set 1.PNG

77 Ignition Timing Set 2.PNG

77 Ignition Timing Set.PNG


Specification page for all ’77 Autos.
77 Timing Chart.PNG


A picture from my ’77 wagon 318 for illustration purposes (providing you do not have Lean Burn).
20170124_132320r.jpg

The vacuum advance has a (small) white “X” on it and hose going to it is marked by white arrow. Just remove hose from the vacuum advance diaphragm, then plug hose (a golf tee, small screw, a stick or even someone’s finger (on edge of hose, not inside) works fine).

Note: this picture is standing at Right Front wheel looking towards the brake booster. if you have a /6, you would stand at same location but look down while bending over fender.

BudW
 

volareandgtcat

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Ok ... so going out this morn .... things are looking up .. it started and stayed running but not on cold idle but on the warm idle screw, so it ran rough till it warmed ... took it out and checked timing upon return, timing is at 10* .. I left it b/c of the tach problems .. I waited for a cool down and found the cold idle set screw wasn't engaging and reset it.. now to wait for a morn. cold start .. I think we got this problem licked .......... ..... set warm idle yesterday at 700+ touch, (made a list . jkg.) checked it twice and still found found it below 600 today? while resetting the idle the tach just stopped working ?? I'm having no faith in my old "7 function engine analyzer" so I'm going by sound and feel at this point .. but at least it stays running now .. this may sound jumbled but that's the way I see it in my head! .. my settings changed over night and with the tach stop functioning on me .. makes me wonder about my tools, I think with a little more tinkering with the idles I'll have this beat.
more to come ... thanks all
 

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Only wondering; have you checked (or changed) your plugs, plug wires cap and rotor recently?
BudW
 

volareandgtcat

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I did all but the wires last summer, got lazy, stupid, or both and the wires looked new-ish ...... I did the wires shortly after starting this chase, the wet humid weather got me started ... I should check my plugs .. but the car runs golden after warm up ... winter is making a come back later this week or next, so I'm hoping I got it.
 

volareandgtcat

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Success everyone ..... altho it took 2 starts (maybe it needs 2 pedal stabs at start up) .. it went to high idle and after 45-60 secs. a stab of the pedal took it to mid idle and after warm up ... perfect ... no black carbon spot on the driveway at start up .. I'm a happy camper right now .......... thanks all !!
 

volareandgtcat

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Hi everyone .. another question about the carb ... can you turn the idle screw out far enough to stall the engine? I went to adjust the a/f mixture and I couldn't get the idle under 480-490 rpm's ... the screw was backed off completely so I'm wondering if there's a vacuum leak preventing the idle from going lower to a stall or if that's just the lower limit? The Haynes manual on the carb says to lower the idle as low as it'll go without running rough b/f doing adjustments and even at the lowest it it still ran smooth.
 

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A few things to check.
The throttle cable itself might be holding the throttle slightly open.
The cruise control (if equipped) might be holding the idle slightly open.
The choke might also be holding the throttle open slightly.

Some carburetors will not close completely.
Why do you want engine to idle under 500 RPM (unless it’s a manual transmission)?
BudW
 

volareandgtcat

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Thanks BudW .. it's for the idle mixture procedure .. it's just temporary for setting it .. I'm just going over everything b/c 15mpg city/highway doesn't seem right with premium Shell gas and a /6. I thought the choke issue was the problem but with that better I'm looking elsewhere.
 

barbee6043

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i have had more than a few slants,... mechanically here there are lots of variables, besides tuning. I admit I have not read all the previous info, but remember this. mileage? rear gears, weight of car, condition of engine, transmission. city driving, out on the open road running at reasonable speed?
have fun and learn all you can. it is the journey, not the destination sometimes... but you will get there!
 

AJ/FormS

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Yeah, my 1980 Volare doesn't do all that well on gas either.
I bought it in 94 with a blown up engine and rearend for $100Canuck-bucks.The car was otherwise in very excellent condition.I bought a rusted out donor Aspen with a SuperSix, for 300ish and had the engine rebuilt, with a tad more CR. I asked for 9.5 and a tad more cam. The builder said they don't make a tad more, so as far as I know the cam is stock.I rebuilt the Aspen A998. Then I put the Aspen powertrain into the Volare, complete with the 2.45 rear. And tuned it up real good.
I thought I was all set for 20mpgsUS. Boy was I in for a shock!. She was having none of it. I did everything I knew how to do, to get that beast to make mileage, but gains were very small.
I found out that this slanty liked a lot of low-speed timing. And it didn't hardly care where the cam-timing was at. I came to the conclusions that;A) the slanty didn't like the 2.45 rear, or B) the Brickwall like nose on the front was in fact, a brick wall!
Eventually I did get it into the 20s USmpg but it was point to point only, and with 2.45s she was gutless, even with the 2.74 low gear. Still is. I still own it, but it is our back-up car now. I thought about her now and then, when driving my 68 Barracuda,especially when my small-cammed Barracuda easily eclipsed that big black boat, in mpgs, easily.The Volare's appearance is deceptive. When it and my S are parked side by side,she looks humongous.
So having accepted Black Beauty as having less than stellar fuel-economy, I dressed her up as the poser she was. I installed some 275/60-15s out back, and some 225/70-15s up front. The fuel mileage didn't seem to change at all. Nor the power.And that is how she sits today. Well, she wore those 275s out, and I think she currently sits on 255s.
So that was the preamble.
I had a 69 Barracuda with a single barrel, A904, and 2.76s . Also with a rebuilt engine and tranny. I installed a 2800 "Dirt Jerker" TC into it. It easily made 20s USg. I think 22/23 on a regular basis.And it blasted off the line pretty good with that TC.
The conclusion;
My Volare is a brick, or the engine doesn't like 2.45s
 
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